MIG-29A BVR - how to force enemy aircraft down low?

[The Gryphon]

Hi guys, I was watching this excellent video how sneak up on enemy aircraft 

But what if the enemy aircraft is really up high, perhaps at 20 000 - 30 000 feet, how do I force them down below 15 000 feet? Or how can I sneak up on a enemy aircraft operating at high altitude without being detected on his radar? 

Edited September 28 by The Gryphon

[Ironhand]

1 hour ago, The Gryphon said:

Hi guys, I was watching this excellent video how sneak up on enemy aircraft 

But what if the enemy aircraft is really up high, perhaps at 20 000 - 30 000 feet, how do I force them down below 15 000 feet? Or how can I sneak up on a enemy aircraft operating at high altitude without being detected on his radar? 

Sta low and come up behind him or from his 9 '0 clock where his radar can't see you?

[The Gryphon]

10 hours ago, Ironhand said:

Sta low and come up behind him or from his 9 '0 clock where his radar can't see you?

Yes that is a great idea! I am thinking sneaking low under him, to avoid his radar, then as I pass under him, I go full afterburner straight up to high altitude and attack from his 6. 

Many pilots BVR from high altitude, a serious drawback is that you are clearly painted against a big blue sky.

[wcdiver]

I'm staying low and try to acquire enemy visually, then once he's on top of me I'm climbing to get on his six and shoot some R-73s or lock him with radar close combat mode to use R-27Rs. Same tactics that I've used in MIG-21.

For BVR I identify my enemy first (via AWACS). If it is a modern jet like F-16 I just don't bother fighting him with this technique, because MIG-29s chances of survival are slim to none. But harassing some ground pounders or older/equivalent planes? That can be done.

 

/edit not AWACS but GCI on multiplayer servers. 

Edited September 29 by wcdiver

[The Gryphon]

4 hours ago, wcdiver said:

I'm staying low and try to acquire enemy visually, then once he's on top of me I'm climbing to get on his six and shoot some R-73s or lock him with radar close combat mode to use R-27Rs. Same tactics that I've used in MIG-21.

For BVR I identify my enemy first (via AWACS). If it is a modern jet like F-16 I just don't bother fighting him with this technique, because MIG-29s chances of survival are slim to none. But harassing some ground pounders or older/equivalent planes? That can be done.

 

/edit not AWACS but GCI on multiplayer servers. 

Any idea how to fight the F-16 from BVR, must be some tactic that can be used? Spam missiles, make him defensive?

[Dača]

19 minutes ago, The Gryphon said:

Any idea how to fight the F-16 from BVR, must be some tactic that can be used? Spam missiles, make him defensive?

You can't.

It all comes down to situation. But in fair fight you can't beat F-16 from 2007. using 80's tech. If F-16 had sparrows then you can beat it, sure.

[TheFreshPrince]

Have you tried the tactic where you constantly notch the enemy in a 90 degree position but also fly very slow and low? It could work to get the enemy closer. 

[AeriaGloria]

7 hours ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Have you tried the tactic where you constantly notch the enemy in a 90 degree position but also fly very slow and low? It could work to get the enemy closer. 

You would have to use EWR to notch since SPO won’t help

[TheFreshPrince]

Well you probably fly head on first, so you know the direction he's coming from and then you can visually crank 90° using terrain features and heading. Maybe takes some practice to adjust into a slight curve while he's getting closer, but it's possible to hold a notch even without EWR/RWR/SPO or whatever. But I haven't tried this tactic with the new MIG-29, only with the FC3 variants. So I don't know if it still works. Especially without chaff...

Edited September 30 by TheFreshPrince

[CrazyGman]

4 hours ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Well you probably fly head on first, so you know the direction he's coming from and then you can visually crank 90° using terrain features and heading. Maybe takes some practice to adjust into a slight curve while he's getting closer, but it's possible to hold a notch even without EWR/RWR/SPO or whatever. But I haven't tried this tactic with the new MIG-29, only with the FC3 variants. So I don't know if it still works. Especially without chaff...

Well you do still have chaff in the 29. So no worries there.

[RyanR]

I feel like 50% of the time, AWACS isn't anywhere near as good as it is in that video. When you need it most, it's not there.

-Ryan 

[AeriaGloria]

They will be forced down when you blow them up! 

[The Gryphon]

On 9/29/2025 at 3:04 PM, TheFreshPrince said:

Have you tried the tactic where you constantly notch the enemy in a 90 degree position but also fly very slow and low? It could work to get the enemy closer. 

Notching is a great idea. Im thinking having my radar off, using AWACs or Ground Control Radar, boogey doop calls to move below him, when I am 90 degree below him (he is at high altitude say 30 000 feet) I go full afterburner straight up and turn on my radar. I lock him from below at perhaps 20 000 feet at fire two missiles. This should make him defensive. If he fires back I go defensive but hopefully I can notch and ground mask. The aim would be to get him below 15 000 feet.

[zerO_crash]

On 9/28/2025 at 7:18 PM, The Gryphon said:

Hi guys, I was watching this excellent video how sneak up on enemy aircraft 

But what if the enemy aircraft is really up high, perhaps at 20 000 - 30 000 feet, how do I force them down below 15 000 feet? Or how can I sneak up on a enemy aircraft operating at high altitude without being detected on his radar? 

 

Generally speaking, it has to be remembered that when you listen to podcasts/interviews/documentaries/comments/etc... from active/former pilots, and a tactic that they used, you are listening to just someone operating in just one component of a whole air force/armed forces. Depending on how realisitic you wish to play it out, you may or may not have the same backup, that's to say an entire wing to help you out. 

 

With that out of the way, you should realize that at this point, you are asking yourself perform two missions at a time (first - bring down low an enemy aircraft, two - engage and neutralize it). If you are flying alone, there are easier ways to use the MiG-29 (and more efficient, as per capacity). Consider outmaching your target in altitude and speed. Use interceptor tactics. High and fast, give you extended range, higher kinetic potential energy for your missiles (x2, launch speed and altitude are both major factors for weapons range), higher energy if BVR turns into merge and also good capability to outrun an enemy missile with pure speed at that altitude. That's only one side of the coin, you. As to your enemy (which, again, depending on realism), will often (if a human pilot) be overweight with their F-16s, F-18s and definitely F-15s, will struggle to gain altitude like you. Often, the enemy pilot won't notice how slow they are moving, by trying to gain on you. A slow moving target, is an easy kill for you. This is a very safe tatic, and allows you to dictate the terms of the engagement, and turn away at a moments notice, should you feel that you are over-committing. The MiG-29 (if to imagine a single ship flight), is really a interceptor in pure AA.

 

If you however still, are hellbent on running down in the weeds, that's all fair and square, but it is a tactic that puts you at a disadvantage, if not simulating real strategy (multi flights with all their tasks). As such, know that you don't, per se, need to have the enemy pulled down low. A known tactic, is to fly down low and fast, such that you negate a high-flying enemy any successful missile launches by pure rule of aspect. A missile will not hit much, if fired vertically down at an aircraft that keeps funneling and maneuvering. Consider the overspeed limits of an aircraft, and that it seldom can point straight down and go at high speed (bending of wing, overspeeding of engines, destructive G-loads, etc...). You, on the other hand, can climb at a ridiculous rate (easily 10km altitude in under 1 minute if at speed), R-27 are incredibly good climbers. If you approach from straight down, you literally won't trigger the RWR of any aircraft in DCS, given the deadzones for RWR sensors at the belly and the back of a plane. The flight profile would be such that you keep 800km/h +++ (avoid afterburner, of course) at low altitude, push to just beneath your target. Continue by pulling hard up (90* vertical if need be) until you are close enough. Finish off by launching R-27/R-73, and head quickly back down, regaining momentum. Generally, you might wonder how long you will live by pulling up, at times behind enemy lines, however consider the time it takes for a pilot to first gain SA and update their mental projection of the battlefield (an aircraft popping up where no one was before/there are many own flights). Two; a potential shooter will have to IFF you. Finally; have his weapons/systems in check in order to engage you. Again, it takes determination (don't second guess, commit to it fully), but if you know what you are doing, those are lethal and quick engagements.

 

Something I will point out with the second method (down low). Generally, if you are realistic about your flying, this would seldomly work in a contested area (in particular, behind enemy lines), as you have SAM sites, manpads, GCI and AWACS to worry about. In addition, if the coalition is even poor at cooperation, they will be able to eloquently deny you to enter their airspace without prior knowledge of you coming. Therefore, I'm pointing it out, that depending on the scenario/target/difficulty, flying down low for AA might not be optimal at all.

Edited 14 hours ago by zerO_crash

[The Gryphon]

On 10/2/2025 at 9:45 AM, zerO_crash said:

Consider outmaching your target in altitude and speed. Use interceptor tactics. High and fast, give you extended range, higher kinetic potential energy for your missiles

 

If you approach from straight down, you literally won't trigger the RWR of any aircraft in DCS, given the deadzones for RWR sensors at the belly and the back of a plane.

Thank you @zerO_crash for a very well written post! Probably one of the best I have seen on this forum lately!

I am starting to think the MIG-29A is best utilised as it was designed: a point defence aircraft with ground radar support. If the ground radar officer is doing a good job then using interceptor tactics at high altitude might be the best (since you have more powerfull radar [ ground radar] compared with F-16, F-F18 etc). You have the radar advantage.

However if the MIG 29A would be missing ground radar (lets say the western jets managed to bomb the ground radar to pure dust) the MIG-29A best tactics would still be point defence but in this case using belly tactics, attack from low and below, pulling 90 degree straight up in the RWR shadow of the enemy aircraft and shot missiles.

I think in both scenarios the MIG-29A will always be a defence aircraft. Mostly because the lack of situational awerness in the cockpit it is to risky attacking a defended enemy. That being said I don't think that makes the MIG-29A less fun to fly. It still can deploy a wide range of tactics within the defence role. It is a different mindset to explore and develop. And as a MIG-29A pilot you are still one of the best knifefighters in DCS and that never gets booring.

 

Edited 23 hours ago by The Gryphon
Spelling error needed fixing :)

[addman]

Problem with high altitude in DCS is the very very visible contrails which you can see from far away. IMO, contrails are the best air-to-air RWR currently modeled in the game. You are like a shining beacon up there, easy to ambush because you also get vector information from the contrails. Taking the MiG-29 to high altitude sounds like a suicide-trap.

[Vakarian]

You can go above contrails...

[Esac_mirmidon]

Exactly

[addman]

1 hour ago, Vakarian said:

You can go above contrails...

 

45 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

Exactly

[AeriaGloria]

18 km service ceiling shameless self plug Most efficient climb for BVR technique 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by AeriaGloria

[zerO_crash]

9 hours ago, The Gryphon said:

Thank you @zerO_crash for a very well written post! Probably one of the best I have seen on this forum lately!

I am starting to think the MIG-29A is best utilised as it was designed: a point defence aircraft with ground radar support. If the ground radar officer is doing a good job then using interceptor tactics at high altitude might be the best (since you have more powerfull radar [ ground radar] compared with F-16, F-F18 etc). You have the radar advantage.

However if the MIG 29A would be missing ground radar (lets say the western jets managed to bomb the ground radar to pure dust) the MIG-29A best tactics would still be point defence but in this case using belly tactics, attack from low and below, pulling 90 degree straight up in the RWR shadow of the enemy aircraft and shot missiles.

I think in both scenarios the MIG-29A will always be a defence aircraft. Mostly because the lack of situational awerness in the cockpit it is to risky attacking a defended enemy. That being said I don't think that makes the MIG-29A less fun to fly. It still can deploy a wide range of tactics within the defence role. It is a different mindset to explore and develop. And as a MIG-29A pilot you are still one of the best knifefighters in DCS and that never gets booring.

 

 

My pleasure!

 

Something, I might add, which is very specific about the SPO-15LM in the MiG-29, is that if you plan on flying without GCI, you will have to rely on that RWR solely as part of the wider sensor suite for situational awareness. The information that you see shown on the RWR panel, are actually processed signals by the electronics boards 51 & 55 onboard the plane. That's to say, when a radar wave hits the RWR lobes (sensors) on the aircraft, the information is sent to a computer for processing, and then further to the RWR panel. Something important to note about it's function, is that in our version of the MiG-29A 9.12, it actually discriminates contacts that are made from the altitude of 8km - 16km. In other words, if you happen to fly low, close to a active SAM-site, and there happen to be two BLUFOR (western) aircraft flying between 8km and 16km altitude, your primary and secondary indication on the RWR will indicate the two aircraft flying above, and only the third (lowest priority) target will indicate the SAM. That is, until a launch is detected, which then becomes priority.

 

Point is, even the working of the RWR stipulate, that the aircraft was designed for those altitudes in mind (8km - 16km). If you fly low, just be aware of this feature/quirk. Also, FC3 MiG-29 have a very basic RWR implementation, such that they are not comparable to ED MiG-29A. 

Enjoy!