investigating SA22 Pantsir wont shoot above ~32,000ft ceiling

[Max107]

I've even set him to Excellent and played with the Advanced waypoints options - nothing.
his max range ceiling is supposed to be around 45,000ft~50,000ft

SA22 max shooting range.trk

[Minsky]

1 hour ago, Max107 said:

his max range ceiling is supposed to be around 45,000ft~50,000ft

 

I wouldn't trust Wikipedia on that without cross-checking with other sources.

https://missilethreat.csis.org/defsys/pantsir-s-1/

Quote

Using 57E6 missiles, the Pantsir-S1 can engage tactical aircraft at a maximum range of 20 km and altitude of 10 km

 

[Max107]

58 minutes ago, Minsky said:

 

I wouldn't trust Wikipedia on that without cross-checking with other sources.

https://missilethreat.csis.org/defsys/pantsir-s-1/

 

Appreciate your respectful assumption, however:

https://armamentresearch.com/russian-96k6-pantsir-s1-air-defence-system-in-ukraine/

 

Quote

"57E6 missiles have a maximum range of 20 kilometres and maximum altitude of 15 kilometres"

 https://www.armyrecognition.com/focus-analysis-conflicts/army/defence-security-industry-technology/exclusive-technical-review-pantsir-sm-the-latest-generation-in-russias-air-defense-system

 

Quote

"This is a significant improvement over the Pantsir-S1, which could only engage targets at a range of 1,200 to 20,000 meters (1.2 to 20 kilometers) and at altitudes of 15 to 15,000 meters"

06:40

 

[Minsky]

23 minutes ago, Max107 said:

Appreciate your respectful assumption, however:

Yeah, and also:

https://www.deagel.com/weapons/57e6-e/a000921

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/pantsyr.htm

Do we have any confirmed hits at 15 km?

Because all these sources - both yours and mine - are just making assumptions and educated guesses without citing anyone in particular or referencing any hard data.

Seems like the author (Currenthill) went with the more conservative numbers.

[Dragon1-1]

The 15km figure might be the theoretical best case from some marketing materials, 10km is probably more realistic against a possibly maneuvering target. Remember that aside from the missile's kinematics, a SAM crew would not engage anything at the very edge of its envelope, because even a small maneuver could take the target out of it, thrashing the missile. Or, look at it that way: if the missile is good up to 15km max, then launching at 10km at most will ensure it won't be evaded by simply zooming up.

[Max107]

1 hour ago, Minsky said:

Yeah, and also:

https://www.deagel.com/weapons/57e6-e/a000921

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/pantsyr.htm

Do we have any confirmed hits at 15 km?

Because all these sources - both yours and mine - are just making assumptions and educated guesses without citing anyone in particular or referencing any hard data.

Seems like the author (Currenthill) went with the more conservative numbers.

Keep posting links to various websites is not an answer but a guess game, surly not better than wikipedia..
thank you for your effort of trying answering anyway

47 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The 15km figure might be the theoretical best case from some marketing materials, 10km is probably more realistic against a possibly maneuvering target. Remember that aside from the missile's kinematics, a SAM crew would not engage anything at the very edge of its envelope, because even a small maneuver could take the target out of it, thrashing the missile. Or, look at it that way: if the missile is good up to 15km max, then launching at 10km at most will ensure it won't be evaded by simply zooming up.

How many targets can actually maneuver effectively enough above 30,000ft?
Maybe you're right about the marketing thing..

Still would love to get an answer from ED or [CH] just to know the actual reason:)
 

[Dragon1-1]

13 minutes ago, Max107 said:

How many targets can actually maneuver effectively enough above 30,000ft?

Just about anything powered by jets, if going reasonably fast. Many aircraft we have can go up to 40kft. It doesn't take much to thrash a missile launched at the very edge of its kinematic profile. Literally any change will do. That the missile can be launched straight up and get up to 15km doesn't mean that it'll be left with enough energy for a meaningful endgame. It's just like range figures from marketing brochures, which are either flyout range or even worse, range against a target closing at supersonic speeds.

Edited November 16 by Dragon1-1

[Max107]

4 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Just about anything powered by jets, if going reasonably fast. Many aircraft we have can go up to 40kft. It doesn't take much to thrash a missile launched at the very edge of its kinematic profile. Literally any change will do. That the missile can be launched straight up and get up to 15km doesn't mean that it'll be left with enough energy for a meaningful endgame. It's just like range figures from marketing brochures, which are either flyout range or even worse, range against a target closing at supersonic speeds.

just wanna clarify that my core question in this post refers to the absolute ceiling point of the engagement dome of the system (SA22 in this case).
I'm not talking about being "max ceiling + 5miles away", but flying directly over the dome of the Pantsir.

With that said, discussions about jet capabilities with no details of the mission/threats/goals is not relevant..
Not many jets can preform good above 30k ft when carrying 'stuff' on their wings.


 

 

[The Stick]

The S2 will engage - I've had to climb out above Angels 40 numerous times even when within the outer limits of their engagement envelope. Once I do, the missiles will lose inertia and fall away. At 30K its a little too close for comfort - too slow and I'm toast. End of the day, Pantsirs are better deployed as point defence systems if I understand correctly.

[razo+r]

Maximum target altitude according to the ingame files for the Pantsir is defined as 15'000m.

If it doesn't engage you when you are within that altitude, you are probably out of reach for the missile due to distance, speed and vector.

[Minsky]

After digging deeper into Russian-speaking sources, it turned out that only the first generation of Pantsirs (pre-2006) had this 10 km altitude limit (or 8 km when using the 9M335 missile).

Later model, partially funded by UAE, has better radar, so the altitude cap was bumped to 15 km. At least according to the official manufacturer's spec sheet:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070228142229/http://www.kbptula.ru/rus/zencom/panzr.htm

Edited November 17 by Minsky

[Minsky]

6 hours ago, razo+r said:

If it doesn't engage you when you are within that altitude, you are probably out of reach for the missile due to distance, speed and vector.

This never stopped most other SAMS in DCS from engaging you, especially when encouraged with triggers/waypoint actions.

Our in-game 57E6 have more than enough energy to reach 12 km when launched at max range. And it reliably reaches 15 km when launched from shorter distances.

So why the unit doesn't even attempt to track targets above 10 km is a mystery.

Given the missile's erratic in-flight behavior, and that it can magically accelerate at the end of its envelope, I'd say something is either bugged or needs further tweaking.

Edited November 17 by Minsky

[draconus]

This should be reported here:

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/1338-bugs-and-problems/

so the developer @currenthill can look into it.

[currenthill]

The current configuration of the Pantsir-S1 has the radar set to a max altitude of 15 000 meters and the 57E6 missile max altitude set to 10 000 meters. I make the assets with sensor and weapons configurations with the exception of the advanced weapons like missiles which ED is responsible for. 

[Minsky]

57 minutes ago, currenthill said:

The current configuration of the Pantsir-S1 has the radar set to a max altitude of 15 000 meters and the 57E6 missile max altitude set to 10 000 meters.

That is strange, because the Pantsir manufacturer explicitly says that the missile's max engagement altitude is 15 km. Not the radar tracking altitude; the engagement altitude.

[currenthill]

56 minutes ago, Minsky said:

That is strange, because the Pantsir manufacturer explicitly says that the missile's max engagement altitude is 15 km. Not the radar tracking altitude; the engagement altitude.

Well, I don't think it's strange. There are always different sources of information, and in most cases none of them will be perfectly accurate. Either way, it's up to ED to change the config if they find it necessary.

[BIGNEWY]

Im happy to mention it to the team, but may need more evidence of its suggested capability 

[Minsky]

17 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Im happy to mention it to the team, but may need more evidence of its suggested capability 

In addition to the official specs sheet published by the manufacturer of the Pantsir?

Don't think we can do better than that, considering that there are no public records of it hitting anything above 10 km (the last year's tragedy of Flight 8243).

But something tells me that they wouldn't risk engaging that airliner flying at 30.000 ft (9.1 km) with a missile that tops at 10 km (33.000 ft).

Edited November 17 by Minsky

[K0notori]

39 minutes ago, Minsky said:

In addition to the official specs sheet published by the manufacturer of the Pantsir?

Don't think we can do better than that, considering that there are no public records of it hitting anything above 10 km (the last year's tragedy of Flight 8243).

But something tells me that they wouldn't risk engaging that airliner flying at 30.000 ft (9.1 km) with a missile that tops at 10 km (33.000 ft).

It seems, flight 8243 was hit when climbing 15k ft

Quote

8:12:48 E: Azerbaijan 82-43, both GPS lost, vectoring needed.

8:12:56 Azerbaijan 82-43, roger. Right course 3-6-0.

8:13:03 E: Starboard course 3-6-0, Azerbaijan 82-43, thank you.

8:14:14 Azerbaijan 82-43, climb to flight level 1-5-0.

8:14:19 E: We are gaining echelon 1-5-0, we were hit by a bird, Azerbaijan 82-43.

8:14:24 Azerbaijan 82-43, and speed up the dialing.

8:14:30 E: Accelerating dialing, Azerbaijan 82-43.

8:14:50 Azerbaijan 82-43, starboard course 0-8-0.

8:14:55 E: Right course 0-8-0, Azerbaijan 82-43.

8:15:24 Azerbaijan 82-43, starboard course 0-5-0.

8:15:30 E: Starboard course or port course, 0-5-0? Azerbaijan 82-43.

8:15:34 Azerbaijan 82-43, right.

8:15:37 E: Right course 0-5-0, Azerbaijan 82-43.

8:16:05 E: Grozny, the controls failed. Bird strike in the cockpit... Uh, bird strike and two seats exploded in the cockpit.

source: https://www.airwaysmag.com/new-post/timeline-flight-j2-8243s-final-hours

official russian specifications are worthless, we can see the real performance of their systems in Ukraine, for the 3th year

[BIGNEWY]

folks this isnt something we can just guess at.

According to our data, the max target altitude does not exceed 10,000 meters

[Minsky]

1 hour ago, K0notori said:

It seems, flight 8243 was hit when climbing 15k ft

I probably misread the report, thanks for correcting me.

1 hour ago, K0notori said:

official russian specifications are worthless, we can see the real performance of their systems in Ukraine, for the 3th year

Worthless or not, it seems to be the only numbers we have.

Excluding this never disclosed, but always correct data at ED's disposal, of course.

Edited November 17 by Minsky