Trim function not functioning as described

[DaveRindner]

After three months os DCS training, my experience with trim is nothing as described. Neither in docs nor here.

 

With new trimmer option.

 

When I engage the trimmer, stabilize flight, disengage trimmer, the cyclic stops responding, it locks up. I would move the joystick, but DCS cyclic would be frozen until trimmer is canceled. So when I am reading that trimmer should never be disengaged in flight I scratch my head. If I don't I will crash. So something is just not functioning as advertised.

[26-J39]

With the new trim method, if you don't center your cyclic and rudder after trim you can experience lock out (cyclic & rudder don't respond) . Sounds like this is happening to you.. If you think you are centering the cyclic and rudder after trim try increasing the dead zones on your 3 x flight axis...(cyclic x,y & rudder)

Edited January 10, 2010 by 26-J39

[EvilBivol-1]

1.0.1 ReadMe:

NEW TRIMMER IMPLEMENTATION

 

In addition to the original trimmer implementation, in which control input is disabled for 1 second to allow the player to quickly re-center his controls, a new method is included in version 1.0.1, using a different re-centering logic. In the new method, control input is disabled until the player returns the controls to their neutral position. This allows the player to re-center his controls smoothly, minimizing unwanted control input.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=43548

[isoul]

AFAIK trim is working right, you may need to check what trimmer method(new or old) you are using in the options->gameplay menu(lower right).

[DaveRindner]

Yea. I read the 1.0.1c trim update. Reread it. Try and try using it. It simply does not work as advertised. As soon as I release the trimmer and re-center the stick I am locked out. Period. Util I either disengage the trim or I crash. Deadzones don't matter. No matter how big I make them, the result is the same. I can't use the new trimmer function. It lock me out of control until disengaged. So from my POV it does not work right.

[159th_Viper]

.....So from my POV it does not work right.

 

In the absence of you actually using a FFB Flightstick, it works exactly as it should ;)

 

What are your Dead-Zones set to? And Trim like the Kamov Pilots are instructed to, ie Control Input and then Trim and not Press Trimmer/Adjust Attitude/Release and see if that renders satisfactory results.

 

Another issue - are you using the keyboard to Trim or Programming Software? If Programming Software, ensure that it's programmed for 'Hold'.

[DaveRindner]

I use X52 Pro. Stick is working right , as far as I can tell. Its calibrated and centered. It works great in LockOn:FC and F4:AF. I have pinky switxh mapped to the trimmer. I hear it engage and disengage. So I disengage and re-center the stick, as instructed, except from that point, the I am locked out of cyclic control until trimmer is canceled. So am I experiencing a stick malfunction is does BS have a problem with X52 Pro? My suspicion is that BS trimmer function is buggy and does not work as described. At least not with my equipment.

[159th_Viper]

Is your Pinky Switch programmed to 'Hold' down the Trim Keyboard Input? If not, the moment you press it, all it is doing is sending one command to your Keyboard for a Single Button Input - So you Holding down your Pinkie Switch is obviously not having the effect you intended.

 

What are your Dead-Zones set to?

 

Your Suspicions are Fraught with Wrongs :)

[Distiler]

A friend of mine had the exact same problem. Turned out it was the joystick (very old), he changed it for another one and no more problems.

 

But first check if you have everything correctly configured, the trim is deinitely not buggy, it's a problem in your side. Start by using default keyb/joy setup anddisable x52 profile, check deadzones both in windows joy setup and inside dcs joy configuration.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Distiler

[isoul]

I use the X52 too. Are you sure you set the Deadzones right? Mine works OK without having to do anything...

[EtherealN]

Like people have been saying: check your stick deadzones. It may look like you have your stick centered and you should thereby get your control back, but it may in actuality not be centered. Anything from a wonky potentiometer to a bad spring can cause the stick to not send a "center" signal while it is physically centered.

 

The solution is to increase your deadzones.

[159th_Viper]

This is the issue one gets with the 'Press and Hold' Trim method..... :chair:

 

If the Keypress is incorrectly mapped, the Flightstick is sending a Single Keypress Command to the Keyboard via the Programming Software (Press and Release). So what should happen according to the programming et al is for the Pilot to then release the Flightstick and return it to the center.

 

However due to the Pilot employing the 'Press and Hold' method, the Flightstick is still being held in position whilst the Trimmer Button is being depressed (At this moment as Useless as a Condom in a Convent) as the Single Keypress has already been sent at 'First Press'. The moment the Trim Button is then released it stands to reason that the Inputs will lock up as it should have been centered after the First Keypress. As a consequence, Deadzones and their attendant settings will have no effect. Solution to this would be to Programme the Keypress as a 'Hold' Command', ie the Keypress is 'held down' for the Duration of the Trimmer Button (Pinkie Switch') being held down.

 

As for this being the issue here - we'll have to wait for Confirmation from the OP. Got a Vague feeling it is......

[EtherealN]

Actually, only if something is really wrong.

 

If you are correctly set up you get one click on depression of the trimmer, and another at release. However, the simulator only cares about when you release it insofar as the "trimmer method" is concerned. It is on release that controls get locked. So for the "press and hold" to cause an issue the stick must be unable to transmit a held-down keypress, which would mean it shouldn't be possible to launch Vikhrs or rockets nor cannon salvoes. If someone had that issue then I think the trimmer would be the last thing we hear about. :P

 

The new trimmer method logic works like this:

1) Trim is set (that is, button released)

2) Deny input from controls until X=0, Y=0 and Z=0

3) Fly

 

The coordinates given by the command system are not influenced how you use the stick. A functional stick will always send a given value for a given control deflection - but obviously there is wear-and-tear and monday samples so if the stick itself is set to send X=1 when it is physically centered it will never be centered. This would demand deadzone application not because of a trimming method but simply because the stick itself does not center, allowing the simulator to translated the X=1 value to X=0 in software.

 

Solution to this would be to Programme the Keypress as a 'Hold' Command', ie the Keypress is 'held down' for the Duration of the Trimmer Button (Pinkie Switch') being held down.

 

This has to be specially programmed in some way? I'm just using a regular Cyborg Evo myself and never bothered with the program suite since they always end up messing things up, both for sticks, keyboards and mice, and for me it worked just like that from the start, as standard. I selected the key in DCS control panel, and off I went. Do the HOTAS sticks not have the same default? I mean, "hold key down while I hold key down" seems like a logical default. :P

[159th_Viper]

.....So for the "press and hold" to cause an issue the stick must be unable to transmit a held-down keypress, which would mean it shouldn't be possible to launch Vikhrs or rockets nor cannon salvoes. If someone had that issue then I think the trimmer would be the last thing we hear about.....

 

With Foxy, it is necessary to programme a Macro with a /H (Hold) Slash Modifier in order to transmit a 'Hold Down' Command, hence the query/submissions.

[EtherealN]

Ah, that explains a lot. I feel so happy with my fetish for "keeping it simple" sometimes. :P

 

Thanks. :)

[EinsteinEP]

So I disengage and re-center the stick, as instructed, except from that point, the I am locked out of cyclic control until trimmer is canceled.

Dave, I suspect that your problem isn't with deadzone bands. From your posts, it sounds like you're centering only the joystick and expecting function to return. Unfortunately, this isn't the case with the Center-mode Trimmer. You have to center the cyclic AND rudder inputs before the system will accept inputs again, not just the cyclic! I normally don't do shameless self-plugs, but you may find this series of articles helpful: http://simhq.com/_air13/air_426a.html

 

If you are centering the joystick AND the rudder inputs and still experiencing Trimmer lock out, can you post a track?

Edited January 11, 2010 by EinsteinEP

[skeemo]

as far as i remember you dont have to do something special in the saitek profiler software for a "press and hold" mode. you just apply the "t" key to the given button - thats it. At least it is what i did with every command i ever mapped to a button.

For example the Shkval Panning keys are mapped to one of my POV switches, but the panning would not work correctly if it must be explicit set to "hold".

 

Anyway the pinkie has a special intended behaviour :

It works as a "shift"-key per default. As you should see in your profiling software. There are 3 columns for the 3 modes PLUS 3 additional for every mode with pinky depressed.

So i suggest you map the trim to another button - see if it works then and there you go.

 

Anyway i think not using the pinky-switch of the X52 as a shift button that gives you 2 times overall button possibilities is a little bit weird...

 

 

Plus calling something buggy that only does not work for you should be reconsidered ;)

 

 

So concluded :

The trim works exactly as described, for the old way and for the new way.

I think it is you using the X52 pinkie switch which messed things up in some way.

[Sarge55]

Actually, the "Pinky" switch works just fine for trim, I've used it for quite awhile now without a problem. It does reduce the number of button options though since you have to delete the "Pinky" modes to make it work as a button.

 

I agree with the "hold" issue, I find as long as the switch or button is pressed it will function. I haven't had to program "hold" to any of the buttons.

 

Good luck with this, it sounds like a stick malfunction.

[Sabre-TLA]

You might want to try using the show controls indicator (RCTL + ENTER).

When I used it I noticed that my Joystick and Rudder pedals were not perfectly centered.

This helped me alot. Hopefully it can help you.

[skeemo]

i have the saitek drivers / software not installed a.t.m. but as far as i think there is no "hold" mode at all.

there IS a clutch mode or toggle mode where the button/key is held even when you release it until you press it again.

but thats something different and not suitable for trimming.

[Frederf]

On my X-45 software it's called "Latched" mode and I tried to use it for MouseFire toggling Shkval 7x/23x view zoom and it's very buggy. While it is latched DCS slows down to a crawl as some aspect of the function causes immense CPU use.

[Panzertard]

On my X-45 software it's called "Latched" mode and I tried to use it for MouseFire toggling Shkval 7x/23x view zoom and it's very buggy. While it is latched DCS slows down to a crawl as some aspect of the function causes immense CPU use.

I've seen several threads on the interweb regarding the Latched mode - most of them suggest that you disable it.

Not used Latched mode myself.