Next DCS (US) Fixed Wing Aircraft Wish List

[arteedecco]

Please. Someone. An F-86.

+1 :thumbup:

[IonicRipper]

Now that 1.2.4 is out along with FC3 (if I'm not mistaken) it'll be interesting to see whats announced next.

[howie87]

I'm not sure how I feel about multi seat aircraft for a few reasons.

 

The first, as others have already commented on, being network stability.

 

Secondly, if the WSO position was not taken by another player and was controlled by AI, how would it be implemented in a way that was fair? (For example, not being superhumanly good or comparatively terrible).

 

Finally there's the communication issue. To operate effectively together would require effective communication, which is not possible with AI. How do you know what he's doing in the back and how can you tell him to use different tactics without using a string of keyboard 'radio' commands (in which case you might as well be flying a single seater).

 

VOIP would put even more strain on network stability but I imagine most people would use teamspeak, so I don't see that as a problem for human players.

[112th_Rossi]

Simples, you would control the WSO as well. Remember Tornado? Same thing.

[arteedecco]

I'm not sure how I feel about multi seat aircraft for a few reasons.

 

The first, as others have already commented on, being network stability.

 

Secondly, if the WSO position was not taken by another player and was controlled by AI, how would it be implemented in a way that was fair? (For example, not being superhumanly good or comparatively terrible).

 

Finally there's the communication issue. To operate effectively together would require effective communication, which is not possible with AI. How do you know what he's doing in the back and how can you tell him to use different tactics without using a string of keyboard 'radio' commands (in which case you might as well be flying a single seater).

 

VOIP would put even more strain on network stability but I imagine most people would use teamspeak, so I don't see that as a problem for human players.

All good points for sure. I think though, when you weigh it all out, the added value of having multi-seaters fully multi-human playable outweighs the *possible* pitfalls. Remember nothing is set in concrete since we don't know how the ED devs would approach this... though apparently it was part of the original LockOn (LAN only for latency issues)... subsequently removed.

 

I discourage people from not trying to do something that would be so amazingly awesome just because it *might* not work perfectly. Server admins could decided whether or not to add missions that had multi-seat capability. They could add ME options to allow AI WSO, or only human, etc. In the end... it is something that has been done in flight sims from the beginning and though it has significant technical challenges... that's all they are... challenges; time / money / value decisions.

 

Also.... keep in mind... we already play against the AI all the time! So what's the difference between a hybrid aircraft that has a human pilot (or WSO) and an AI bot? Not an issue to me when I look at it with that realization. You could have / set varying levels of AI WSO effectiveness as well... just like how we do it in the ME with AI aircraft and vehicles.

 

Personally, if done anywhere near the level of the UH-1 module that just came out or the DCS A-10C... I would probably buy every multi-seat module made. Especially ==> Apache, Cobra, Mi-24, F-15E.

 

Simples, you would control the WSO as well. Remember Tornado? Same thing.

"Simple" is perhaps a bit of an oversimplification (haha, irony for you... using "simple" to argue against something being "simple"), but I agree with your sentiment. It's been done before successfully in other sims. yeah yeah, the sims were lower fidelity... had warping issues, latency issues, etc... but guess what... mostly... they were just awesome!

 

It can be done! I have faith in the ED devs.

 

I also think going forward that ED will (*should* IMO) focus more on the platform and less on aircraft modules. Make the ME (and SSE) and DCS World fantastic as a platform now that they've got a clamoring user base and work hard to help out 3rd parties make new modules quicker, and with more features.

 

IMHO :joystick:

Edited May 1, 2013 by arteedecco

[howie87]

I suppose that makes sense. Would probably be more effective to fly a single seater still, but if you fancied a challenge it could be fun to do both roles. Not sure how that would work for larger aircraft though, where the guys in the back don't have a stick between their legs... Or windows...

[arteedecco]

I suppose that makes sense. Would probably be more effective to fly a single seater still, but if you fancied a challenge it could be fun to do both roles. Not sure how that would work for larger aircraft though, where the guys in the back don't have a stick between their legs... Or windows...

I frankly know very little about what a WSO in an F-15E or F-14 actually does?

 

My impression is that it would be a systems simulator. Plus... the GIB could provide bandit callouts to you (this is one area where your initial comments have some traction). For example... if the AI was "good" he would give you a huge advantage in terms of Situational Awareness (SA) when in a WVR A2A fight... or against SAM launches. +1 for multi-seat! But... this advantage would be true in RL too, so again... I'm not sure it's actually unbalancing... just have to tune the AI.

 

In the Bone you would be working Nav / Radar / ECM, so the dev would have to really have good info on those systems and model the heck out of them to make it fun and sophisticated.

 

When this topic came up in another part of the forum, one poster mentioned how he and a group of friends used to play Silent Hunter together with various players at all the different stations on the ship. He said it was great fun even though not everyone was "commander".

 

I have had a similar (albeit reduced) experience in Il-2 (and Pacific Fighters) where we would take turns flying or playing as gunner. It was great fun. The depth and excitement (and hilarity) it offered was much greater than I imagined it would be.

 

There is even a SAM simulator out there (check it out, https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/). I really wish ED would integrate it as a module, so it would work with Combined Arms (CA), making that module much more realistic. I actually think this is where ED is headed since DCS World is billeted as a full (all aspect) warfare simulator... basically.

 

I think there are lots of us in this community that really love the systems aspect of the deep reality simulation... hence the love of the A-10C despite having to take 5 min to start the plane up. So occasionally flying as the RIO in an F-14, or WSO in an F-15E would be pretty neat, learning how all those systems work and taking part in a real crew environment with another player.

[howie87]

Yeah, I do agree with that and think it would be fun to operate all the systems.

 

According to Wikipedia

 

"WSO mission duties in fighter aircraft were historically rigid because of the displays and controls in the front and aft seats of fighter cockpits. However modern fighter cockpits using programmable multi-function displays allow assigned roles to be more flexible than previous generation aircraft such as the F-4 Phantom II, A-6 Intruder, or F-14 Tomcat. In the latest fighters either aircrew can be responsible for detecting, targeting and engaging air-to-air targets or ground targets, performing communications, operating data-link or defensive systems based on the tactical situation. This provides the flexibility for pilot and WSO roles to be customized based on experience, expertise, workload, tactics, and weapons being employed. The pilot remains responsible for flying the aircraft in tactical situations. WSOs assigned to bomber aircraft typically have more rigidly defined roles."

 

This makes it sound like it would be perfectly viable to fly solo, albeit with a higher workload.

 

I personally would prefer a system without any AI controlled 'help' as I think it would encourage players to team up together and improve their combat effectiveness.

 

A 'hotswap' option would also be an excellent idea as players could fly half the mission as pilot and half as WSO.

[Hubris]

F-16

[arteedecco]

... I personally would prefer a system without any AI controlled 'help' as I think it would encourage players to team up together and improve their combat effectiveness.

I think you have to have the option (not required to have AI or human in back, or front :) ). In other threads, people have talked about how most multi-seat aircraft require the WSO to be able to execute all their capability. Flying around solo in an F-15E may be possible, but the workload would be nearly unbearable w/out WSO. Some aircraft may simply be rendered nearly useless w/out GIB. Though there may be repeaters and ways to program the MFDs for the pilot... getting that much info into one or two tubes would be a lot of constant button mashing and getting lost in displays, for example. :joystick: Hence... why the plane was constructed for two people in the first place, right.

 

A 'hotswap' option would also be an excellent idea as players could fly half the mission as pilot and half as WSO.

Excellent idea indeed. Would need a confirm option for the pilot(s) currently in the aircraft to accept player hotswap request, but awesome idea.

 

Not sure if you've been following the new Beta Huey module that was just released, but it allows just what you're talking about. You can engage an AI autopilot to hold straight and level or orbit at ~18 degrees (I think that's the angle). You can then switch to the door gunner position and fire away, or to the co-pilot position and aim / fire the miniguns. :thumbup:

[howie87]

I'm not really interested in the Huey but from what I hear it's very well done.

 

I do agree with you about the workload being unmanageable for certain aircraft. I'd like to see a compromise though, such as no AI for online play and a 'free' version of the module that anyone can download but only play as the guy in the back. That way you'd never be short of a WSO/GIB and it would also draw people into learning the systems and work as an advert for the module at the same time.

 

I guess what I don't want is guys coming online with an AI advantage because they don't have to work their own radar/weapons systems. Getting downed by 2 guys working together, now that's fair enough.

Edited May 2, 2013 by howie87

[EchoMasterMind]

Yeah, I do agree with that and think it would be fun to operate all the systems.

 

I personally would prefer a system without any AI controlled 'help' as I think it would encourage players to team up together and improve their combat effectiveness.

 

A 'hotswap' option would also be an excellent idea as players could fly half the mission as pilot and half as WSO.

 

+100

 

The hotswap idea is fantastic! It would totally eliminate the "I'm stuck in the backseat for an hour" feeling for those who would grow bored (I wouldn't mind being the WSO for an entire mission though ;) )

 

Oh man, oh man! Can't wait for the F-15E!

[howie87]

Yeah, I'd love to fly the mudhen. Hope ED consider making an F/A-18D as well. The worst part is the waiting... I'm seriously considering cryostasis.

[HerrKaputt]

I'd like to see a compromise though, such as no AI for online play and a 'free' version of the module that anyone can download but only play as the guy in the back. That way you'd never be short of a WSO/GIB and it would also draw people into learning the systems and work as an advert for the module at the same time.

 

This is actually a great idea!

[SkateZilla]

I wouldnt mind if Benchmark Sims uses their F-16 Assets to bring a F-16 to DCSW.

[arteedecco]

I wouldnt mind if Benchmark Sims uses their F-16 Assets to bring a F-16 to DCSW.

Ummm yeah... +1 to that!

 

If I were a 3rd party dev, we would be going for multi-role. F-18, F-16, AV-8B, etc. Basically, giving players ability to do both A2A and A2G means you get to do everything when you get up in the air, which means lots of fun potential on any given mission. Plus... with those airframes you get SEAD, so now you've got a 3rd mission type.

 

Anyhoo... cannot wait for the AV-8B.

Edited May 2, 2013 by arteedecco

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Good news for you mate, a lot of 3rd parties are going for multi-role aircraft - and the development so far is beautiful :D

 

Some links that might be pleasing:

Coretex's F/A-18E: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=90154

RAZBAM's AV-8B: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=93794

RAZBAM's F-15E: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=94313

VEAO's Eurofighter (if you've been in the bandwagon since Flaming Cliffs you may remember a beautiful Typhie mod they did for it, what a joy it was): http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=89729

 

Each are in separate stages of development but you already have something to look forwards to :)

 

Personally I'd kill for a Tornado - either version, both are beautiful aircraft. And as said before, a Mirage 2000C, going to be gone soon. The Tornado F3's left the RAF and ItAF going to be fully retired with the Royal Saudi Air Force soon exchanging their last aircraft for Typhoons.

 

Not entirely sure how former operators would be willing to disclose some information though, but one can dream :D

 

PS: Am I the only one who finds it odd that there isn't any interest for the F-5E? That lil' guy's an absolute beauty :huh:

[nick10]

I wouldnt mind if Benchmark Sims uses their F-16 Assets to bring a F-16 to DCSW.

 

I have often wondered why this has not happened. After all - the have a new build cockpit.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

This is really old news, but ages ago ED posted some cockpits here and there and the F-16 was one of them (together with the Hind, Apache-A, Su-27 and some other stuff), here's what they got back then: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=503375&postcount=343

[howie87]

The F-16 is probably my favourite aircraft. Easy to fly, excellent performance, true multirole... Would love to see them in DCS and am gutted nobody has taken up the challenge yet.

[Ryback]

This is really old news, but ages ago ED posted some cockpits here and there and the F-16 was one of them (together with the Hind, Apache-A, Su-27 and some other stuff), here's what they got back then: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=503375&postcount=343

 

thanks for remembering this..I wish somebody from ED (likely Mr.Wagner) had info.Despite all the F-18 lovers, to me is the only thing missing in FC3/DCS..

 

I really like to know if it's dead,on hold, or WIP.. But well..:cry:

[howie87]

Seeing as we haven't heard a peep for 5 years, I'm going to go with dead. Seems it has been dropped in favour of the F/A-18C and F-15C.

 

I can understand it to an extent. The F-15C being the 'better' fighter and the F/A-18C being carrier capable. To me though, the F-16 is a fantastic jack of all trades. More capable than the F/A-18C in terms of raw performance and far more versatile than the F-15C.

 

It's just all the little things for me though, like the terrain following radar and the frameless canopy... Somebody please make it! :(

[Ryback]

... Somebody please make it! :(

 

Amen:thumbup:

 

May i trade "somebody" with ED or it's partners? Such a light and agile dog-fighter should be developed by a serious 3rd party who has an experience about the flight model and physics.

 

God I want this :)

[Erforce]

Well, if a good F/A-18 came out of studios, i suppose GraphSim will look closer at ED, and "maybe" develop their F-16 or just buyout ED ;)

Ok i'm dreaming, or nightmaring ;)

[Leviathan]

My opinion: If it needs to be an multi-role aircraft, I'd prefer the F/A-18 over the F-16, becasue the F/A-18 has better avionics layout, better cockpit ergonomy and has the better looking airframe.

 

Still I'd love a pure Fighter/Intercepter (F-15C), becuase all ED and 3rd party producers haver focused on yet is ground attack. Everything they make that is located in our time (well except FC3) is ground attack (Black Shark is ground attack, Warthog is ground attack, huey is ground attack). For me it's time for some dogfighting and high speed interception.

 

Yes I'm aware what advantages a multirole fighter has compared to a pure fighter and it's ok if they produce a multirole jet, still I hope for a F-15.

 

I find this to be an interesting article about F/A-18 and F-16 comparison btw:

http://www.friendlyflusi.at/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=16508