SU-27 need corrections in FC2.0

[tflash]

Something less contentious about the Flanker payload: how about multiple ejector racks for FAB-100 bombs? Visible on this movie:

 

Maybe some MBD-2-67U? I'ld love to load those on Su-27.

[Raven434th]

I'm kinda confused by this discussion.What are we talking about here?...the capabilities of two airforces in the past or present?Have ED simply upgraded the AC based on what they have access too,or based on what is known.Big difference.

If we're to fight an imaginary war in todays timeline...then its only fair that the aircraft that both airforces would deploy be represented.If they can't model the AC because its classified,then don't model the senerio.Do the senerio that you have ALL the info on.If that means 1990...so be it.Ya don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that if war broke out today,Russia would have su-35/whatevers in the air in record time.Carrying R-77's and better weapons too boot.But also remember,NATO would have their raptors/jointstrikes and euro's.I find it especially strange that a developer in russia has more info on nato AC ...than its own.But I'm guessing here,as it just seems that way.

Bottom line is,this is a game,and games should be fair.So as not too sacfice realism the timeline should represent the balance of its day.As it is in real life.IMO...a decent attempt should have been made to do a modern Russian AC equal to the Eagle.Whatever AC that may be.Su-30mki,Su-35.So I ask the question,If I'm a Russian pilot at war with NATO in 2010...What am I flying and what have I got to shoot with????:joystick:

[Breakshot]

In FC2 ?

 

Maybe they can share what tactic they apply to do so.

 

regards

 

We have not flown in FC2 enough yet to say for certain if there is any new specific "tactic" that would work... however from all testing so far, its not much of a change IMO to affect how the engagements play out, even if the F15 is slightly more "Dangerous"...

 

Besides, any good pilot knows that there is no "holy grail" tactic, but rather all around experience that makes the difference...

 

I can say this much however, in the flanker you have to depend on your wingmen for the most part because you dont have the luxury of going "Rambo" as with other planes... :smilewink: Obviosly due to the fact that you got no active missiles to cover you back...

 

So i would say, patience, discipline, and lots of tactical training... And as for fight tactics... well lets just say F-Pole with a proper defensive execution is key...

 

Oh and did i mention good teamwork...? :)

 

@Fahh: Thanx for the kind words... 51st regards the 2IAE in the same light!

 

Cheers

[Sov13t]

If I'm a Russian pilot at war with NATO in 2010...What am I flying and what have I got to shoot with????:joystick:

 

Before the westerners chime in with their supremacy statements.

 

Yes, the majority of the Russian Air Force would indeed field SU-27S (as in game) with R-27R as main weapon against fighters. Of course with close GCI control, AWACS and MiG-31s and of course C-300 and 400 SAM sites. However, there are two regiments of SU-27SMs that are on active service along with other "more advanced" toys (including SU-35s) that are sprinkled across the Russian Federation. Nobody here, whoever they are can tell you for a fact how many PBB-AE missiles the Russian Air Force has, it is certainly not abundant but I am sure it isn't extinct either. All these "My sources" or other "experts" is a never ending game. And you are right in terms of availability of information. There are millions more F-15 pilots that will tell you and share everything with you while there are only so many SU-27 pilots that live on a miserable salary, trained in a country that seized to exist 19 years ago and went through more turmoil than any other.

 

However, last time I checked FC2 is not an economic simulator... especially since DCS:Black Shark is modelled after a helicopter that only has 12 or even less flying ships in real life. So yes, things are grim economically and Russia does not have anywhere near as much UBERness as USAF... that is why we aren't going around the world dictating what we like and don't like.

 

Also remember that the doctrine of Russia has primarily been containment/defensive rather than offensive, as such a lot of weapon systems rely on home advantage.

 

Flight sim, not economic sim.

[Breakshot]

If =RvE= server brings R-77's to Flankers, I am sure most of the players will play on that server. Although, Su-27S does not carry R-77's in real life.

 

I beg to differ!

 

As a Flanker pilot i would NOT want to have unrealistic P77s hanging on my wings, or even worse, having others who have no clue about how to fly Flankers join the "LOPE" bandwagon and spam around those missiles making the game some sort of CS active missiles fest... Dont the Migs and F15s do enough of that already?! :music_whistling: If some arent happy with how the flanker performs, fly the above planes that have actives, cmon! I say this especially because i feel ERs do the job just fine... given enough experience and practice with them...

 

Id rather have the "Time To Impact" timer on HUD in the Flanker as it has in RL! Now that would be a nice thing to have...

 

I say screw the whole P77s on Flankers nonesense, its just lame and not a solution by any means... Learn to fly them as they are, comrades!

[Alfa]

First about the claim of the thread starter,

 

Well it has been said already - the version modelled in the game is the Su-27S, which doesn't support the R-77/RVV-AE missile.

 

But I also think many people in this thread are missing the point - its not about how easy it would be(real world) to implement support for the RVV-AE on the current Su-27S should the need arrive or whether there are more recent variants in service with this capability already.

 

Its about simulating real aircraft and it just so happens that the Flanker variants with RVV-AE support that are in service with the Russian airforce are very different from the currently modelled Su-27S on a many areas. Although the Su-27SM is an upgrade and as such a *much* less radical improvement as compared with the new Su-35, it nevertheless has entirely new systems such as "ground capable" EOS , a new RWS and new cockpit layout, just as the upgraded radar not only supports the RVV-AE, but also has air-to-surface modes. In order to properly simulate the Su-27SM, it would be necessary to have documentation for the functionality of all these new systems......and it just isn't available.

[GGTharos]

How do you rate FC2 ERs compared to FC1 ERs?

 

I say this especially because i feel ERs do the job just fine... given enough experience and practice with them...

[Wags]

Despite what a few folks mistakenly think, there has NEVER been ANY artificial agenda to make one aircraft superior to another. We quite simply modeled each aircraft as realistically as we could given time and resources. We want users to experience the same qualities and challenges of these aircraft that the real pilots confront.

 

If we really wanted to make the F-15C unbeatable, why leave out the JTIDS datalink, RAID modes, and HMS/AIM-9X?

 

Even so, if you really feel one aircraft overpowers the other, why not create severs that remove that aircraft (or very limited numbers available)?

 

Honestly, this whole tempest in a teapot seems much to do about nothing.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Wags

[RedTiger]

First about the claim of the thread starter,

 

Well it has been said already - the version modelled in the game is the Su-27S, which doesn't support the R-77/RVV-AE missile.

 

But I also think many people in this thread are missing the point - its not about how easy it would be(real world) to implement support for the RVV-AE on the current Su-27S should the need arrive or whether there are more recent variants in service with this capability already.

 

Its about simulating real aircraft and it just so happens that the Flanker variants with RVV-AE support that are in service with the Russian airforce are very different from the currently modelled Su-27S on a many areas. Although the Su-27SM is an upgrade and as such a *much* less radical improvement as compared with the new Su-35, it nevertheless has entirely new systems such as "ground capable" EOS , a new RWS and new cockpit layout, just as the upgraded radar not only supports the RVV-AE, but also has air-to-surface modes. In order to properly simulate the Su-27SM, it would be necessary to have documentation for the functionality of all these new systems......and it just isn't available.

 

Wasn't Flanker and Flanker 2.0 simulating this aircraft or an aircraft that was very similar to this?

 

I'm not suggesting that ED go backwards and start doing things the old way, nor am I saying "go play Flanker". I only find it interesting that the Flanker in those sim had the *exact* same capability you speak of. Even the air to ground "radar" worked more like LANTERN or a Sniper pod.

[Pilotasso]

I don't see any reason, to put the Flankers down always......., I get more kills in a shorter time with the Flanker then with the Eagle.

 

Some guys think, the can apply every tactic on each plane the same way, on the Flanker u have to use a different tactic as the F-15's for example.

 

Hit the nail on the head. Dont fly flankers head to head with F-15, you'll loose. Change your tactics from 1.12 because they were 99% BS (not meaning black shark ;) ) and this is what is causing the grief behind some of these posts. I saw this coming months ago when FC2 was announced and debated. People didn't listened or haven't adjusted yet.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Pilotasso

[Vault]

Has the Flanker's trim increments been improved in FC2? When I used to play FC you had to turn auto-pilot on and off to to get the Flanker to trim dead straight without any stick input.

[Raven434th]

QUOTE:

 

"Even so, if you really feel one aircraft overpowers the other, why not create severs that remove that aircraft (or very limited numbers available)?"

 

HAHAHAHAHA....THATS WHAT WE WOULD DO if WE HAD OTHER AIRCRAFT TO USE!!...LIKE OH I DUNNO...THE F-18....F-16....f-14.........

Edited April 8, 2010 by Raven434th

[Alfa]

Wasn't Flanker and Flanker 2.0 simulating this aircraft or an aircraft that was very similar to this?

 

Yes - well it was simulating an Su-33 with a proposed multirole upgrade, while the Su-27 was pretty much the same as it is in FC2 :) .

 

I'm not suggesting that ED go backwards and start doing things the old way, nor am I saying "go play Flanker". I only find it interesting that the Flanker in those sim had the *exact* same capability you speak of. Even the air to ground "radar" worked more like LANTERN or a Sniper pod.

 

Yes but then I also think it is evident for everyone who has been around since then that ED strives for an ever increase in realism - I think the most recent step from Lock-on: FC to DCS: Black Shark says it all :) .

[Udat]

I have been belonging to the "block" that wants ARMs on the Su-27, mostly because it was so close to having the capability (with the cancelled R-27EAs and the R-77 that was just inplemented some year too late, or in the "wrong" exact model.)

 

But this thread kinda inspired me, especially Fahh, Breakshot and Frostie's comments. I have always loved the Flanker, since I first saw it in a Fighter aircraft book I had as a kid. I love the way it handles, it's ridickulously heavy armament and internal fuel load, it's agressive looks; just about everything about it. I started flying lockon with it, I trained on it as my plane of choice with my squad, and the feeling of besting an ARH-equipped opponent is exhilarating. I have partly forgotten this over the last year or so, and your words made me think back.. Pretty incoherent post this I think, but the point is I agree- I love the flanker as it is, and I think I'll be seeing much more to it in the near future :)

 

In a way, getting my ass severely handed to me in a 4vs4 against 51st was, in a way, quite heartening.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Udat

[Rikus]

So not upgrade dor Su27 but yes for F15...

 

Greetings

[Wags]

You do remember that the Su-27/MiG-29 had significant realism improvements in FC whereas the F-15C did not, right? F-15s need love too.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Wags

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I beg to differ!

I sure hope you are right. I am afraid that a lots of newcomers on that server will see this uber Flankers with R-77's and will jump on it. Try explaining them that real Flankers (Su-27S) don't have ARH missiles. Yes, us, old timers and true combat flight sim's enthusiast will not go there, but I am sure a lot's of younger folks will.

[Sov13t]

I just love F-15s killing each other... its a lot of fun to watch. :thumbup:

[EvilBivol-1]

It's very simple: the Su-27 is not equipped with the R-77 in real life, unlike the F-15C, which has been equipped with the AIM-120 since the early 1990s. That's it, really.

[naydenivanov]

So if there is no info about new version of the aircrafts, why don't you do the models of the planes date back to late 80-s? It would be accurate and would be interesting to see the result of the fight of planes from same epoch. Let's see AIM-120A, F-16A - which carry only AIM-7, Mig-21BIS - this will make the sim to look much more balanced.

Edited April 8, 2010 by naydenivanov

[RedTiger]

So if there is no info about new version of the aircrafts, why don't you do the models of the planes date back to late 80-s? It would be accurate and would be interesting to see the result of the fight of planes from same epoch.

 

You can already do that fairly well. Pit F-15Cs with Aim-7s vs. MiG-29As or Su-27 armed with R-27s. Or, substitute the MiG-29S to allow datalink and just restrict it to the payloads on the A model.

[naydenivanov]

Yes, but you can't do it for F-16 and Mirage and so on. Also the radar characteristics of these planes will be different. Mig-21 is serving still in some countres, but it's not in the game.

[EvilBivol-1]

In general, the simulation aims to model the world of today. It isn't possible to do this exactly and there are and always will be some inconsistencies. The Mission Editor allows you to model various other types of scenarios if you wish, such as excluding ARH missiles for the flyable aircraft if you want to even out the playing field or model a situation of the past.

[Case]

Don't fly flankers head to head with F-15, you'll loose.

I thought you were intelligent enough not to use a generalized and false statement like this.

 

Since when did pilot skill and pilot error drop out of the equation predicting the outcome of a head to head engagement? Both are as important if not more important than what plane one flies or weapons one brings. Even you make mistakes, as you showed only a couple of days ago.

[Pilotasso]

Case, dont take it personal, you know what I meant.