Laser Maverick for A-10C ?

[greg765]

Hi !

 

I am wondering if AGM-65C will be in DCS : Warthog or not ?

 

Because a few months ago, a list of weapons was published, I don't know if that was exhaustive but on this list the AGM-65C is missing (laser-guided version).

It would be so great for CAS mission !

 

A picture to show that the real A-10 can carry this maverick version :

 

 

and the list published a few months ago on the official website :

 

MK1.

MK5.

MK61.

M151.

M156.

WTU1B.

M274.

M257.

M278.

Mk-82.

Mk-82AIR.

Mk-84.

CBU-87.

BDU-50LD.

BDU-50HD.

BDU-33.

LUU-2B/B.

LUU-19.

GBU-10 Paveway II.

GBU-12 Paveway II.

GBU-38.

GBU-31.

CBU-103.

AGM-65D.

AGM-65G.

AGM-65H.

AGM-65K.

TGM-65D.

TGM-65G.

CATM-65K.

TGM-65H.

AIM-9M.

CATM-9M.

 

So, what about the AGM-65 C ?

 

Edit : another question about the mavericks : what's the difference between the AGM-65K and the AGM-65H ?

 

Edit 2 : Can't the A-10C carry Mk-20 ?

Edited June 27, 2010 by greg765

[zakobi]

Have you checked wikipedia on the Maverick? To see of one of the models listed isn't a updated version?

[EtherealN]

Carrying and using are different things. Is that an A10A or A10C? Is it operationally used or just tested?

 

Remember that laser mavs would sacrifice the Fire-And-Forget nature of the K and D variants, forcing the aircraft to keep flying towards the target if it doesn't have someone "painting" for it (unsure if the C mav is programmable enough in the air to allow changing of laser codes to enable that, though).

 

Basically, against tanks, buildings and ships, you can do it fire-and-forget with the other Mavs, against infantry positions, hard buildings and such you'll have better use from JDAMs (Fire-and-Forget) or GBU-12's.

 

Again though, I've not checked whether the Charlie does use the Mav-C operationally, but I'm not sure why it would want to do so considering the other weapons it has available.

[Boberro]

Hasn't Maverick (laser version) about 27 km range?

[EtherealN]

Have you checked wikipedia on the Maverick? To see of one of the models listed isn't a updated version?

 

Please please please do not rely on wikipedia for stuff like this. Wikipedia articles will very often list weaponry as being used that's just barely been flight-tested - compare to what wikipedia says about the Ka-50 for an example.

[greg765]

Have you checked wikipedia on the Maverick? To see of one of the models listed isn't a updated version?

 

No, there is nothing on Wikipedia that explains the difference ...an Wikipedia isn't a reference...

They are both TV-Guided and have the same explosive charge.

[EtherealN]

Hasn't Maverick (laser version) about 27 km range?

 

I don't have the diagrams available right now, but if memory serves that range assumes delivery from angels 20 from a m0.9 platform. The Hog is too slow to achieve that.

[Eddie]

The last time I paid attention to the laser Mav, it was only used by the US Navy. Things could have changed, but personally I can't really see much of an advantage of the laser Mav over the TV/IIR guided versions.

 

Although as Wags has said, all the weapons employed by the A-10C will be in the sim, so I'd guess that if the A-10C can use the laser mav it will be there, but I doubt it is in service. In may have been tested and even cleared for use, but that doesn't mean it is in the inventory.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Eddie

[VTJS17_Fire]

The latest laser-guided Maverick is the AGM-65E. And this model is normally used by the U.S. Marines only. The E-Mav was deployed for fast targets.

 

Since 2007, the A-10C carries the AGM-65E in combat.

 

Source: http://frontierindia.net/us-air-force-uses-agm-65e-laser-guided-maverick-missile-in-combat

 

 

AGM-65 variants: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/agm-65.htm

 

 

kind regards,

fire

Edited June 27, 2010 by VTJG17_Fire

[EtherealN]

Well, Eddie: "can use" or "does use"? We definitely want all the weapons that the Charlie does use, but I'd expect the list of weapons that it can use to include a lot of legacy stuff that no-one actually wants to use IRL with that aircraft.

[VTJS17_Fire]

In my opinion, you don't have an advantage with the AGM-65E and the hog. D, G, H and K models are all fire&forget weapons. The E model not. You have to track the target with the Litening pod (for example) until it hits the target.

 

 

kind regards,

fire

[Bwaze]

AGM-65D - imaging infrared guidance, 125 pounds (56.25 kilograms) shape charged warhead

 

AGM-65G - imaging infrared guidance, 300 pounds (135 kilograms) delayed-fuse penetrator, heavyweight

 

AGM-65H - electro-optical/television, AGM-65B with updated CCD imaging sensor (since 2003), 125 pounds (56.25 kilograms) shape charged warhead

 

AGM-65K - imaging infrared guidance, AGM-65G with updated CCD imaging sensor (since 2003)300 pounds (135 kilograms) delayed-fuse penetrator, heavyweight

 

CATM-65K - Captive-carry (non-launching) training missile

 

TGM-65D, TGM-65G, TGM-65H - training missile, no warhead, but launch-able

[159th_Viper]

 

Since 2007, the A-10C carries the AGM-65E in combat.

 

Source: http://frontierindia.net/us-air-force-uses-agm-65e-laser-guided-maverick-missile-in-combat

 

By no means authoratitive :)

 

"...Raytheon anticipates laser-guided Maverick production for the Air Force, Navy and international customers as early as 2009..."

[Eddie]

Well, Eddie: "can use" or "does use"? We definitely want all the weapons that the Charlie does use, but I'd expect the list of weapons that it can use to include a lot of legacy stuff that no-one actually wants to use IRL with that aircraft.

 

I agree dude, with the caveat that the legacy weapons it CAN use would still be nice to have in the sim. Just in case, for example, some mad man wants to create a cold war "everybody panic, kill 'em all before they kill us" scenario with a slightly more modern twist. :D

 

Anyway, most aircraft only really employ a fraction of the ordnance they are cleared for in my experience.

[Bwaze]

I can imagine the questions after DCS: A-10C launch:

 

Why can't I launch CATM-65K? I have a lock, and I'm surely within a range!

 

TGM-65D, TGM-65G, TGM-65H are broken, I scored direct hit on a tank (confirmed through a Litening pod), but the tank keeps on moving! Please fix!!!

 

I think not even warning about trainig weapons in basic FAQ will save you from this questions, just look at how many times "I can only fire cannon, not missiles" comes up in FC2!

 

:)

 

 

I can imagine use for a AGM-65E (laser guided). One aircraft lases the target from a safe distance, the other comes in very low, pops up and fires the AGM-65E guided by that laser, and quickly turns, dives and leaves the area.

[VTJS17_Fire]

That means, we need a "real" datalink, not the SADL (iirc this is just a datalink for friendly groundunits and other fighters ... but position only. No targetinformation transfer).

 

So you can launch your G-Mav and turn out ... nobody has to laser the target.

 

 

I can imagine use for a AGM-65E (laser guided). One aircraft lases the target from a safe distance, the other comes in very low, pops up and fires the AGM-65E guided by that laser, and quickly turns, dives and leaves the area.

 

 

kind regards,

fire

Edited June 27, 2010 by VTJG17_Fire

[VTJS17_Fire]

The AGM-65K hasn't IIR guidance. It has a CCD-TV sensor, means it's TV guided.

 

The AGM-65K missiles should be an updated derivative of AGM-65G. G's guidance section would be replaced with a 480x480 pixels CCD-TV sensor, the same used in H models, plus modern hardware and software. CCD-TV sensor will provide mainly clearer picture and longer standoff range.

 

Source: http://www.deagel.com/Anti-Armor-Weapons-and-Missiles/AGM-65K-Maverick_a001167007.aspx

 

 

kind regards,

fire

 

 

AGM-65D - imaging infrared guidance, 125 pounds (56.25 kilograms) shape charged warhead

 

AGM-65G - imaging infrared guidance, 300 pounds (135 kilograms) delayed-fuse penetrator, heavyweight

 

AGM-65H - electro-optical/television, AGM-65B with updated CCD imaging sensor (since 2003), 125 pounds (56.25 kilograms) shape charged warhead

 

AGM-65K - imaging infrared guidance, AGM-65G with updated CCD imaging sensor (since 2003)300 pounds (135 kilograms) delayed-fuse penetrator, heavyweight

 

CATM-65K - Captive-carry (non-launching) training missile

 

TGM-65D, TGM-65G, TGM-65H - training missile, no warhead, but launch-able

[zakobi]

Please please please do not rely on wikipedia for stuff like this. Wikipedia articles will very often list weaponry as being used that's just barely been flight-tested - compare to what wikipedia says about the Ka-50 for an example.

 

C'mon, be fair, i'm young and just needed a fast answer :P

 

 

IMO there's a plus using laser guided over FaF's. The FaF's require some sources (IR or strong contrast) whereas the laser fly to the point. So against soft positions, lets say enemy infantry hiding in some bushes, it can be harder to use the FaF's (dunno about MMWR though). Of course you then might want a GBU instead. etc...

[tflash]

The laser-guided mav comes to it own in situations where a "lock" with a missile's IIR or TV seeker is not easy to obtain.

 

This is in particular the case in todays Afghanistan ops. Insurgents do not typically move around in BTR-80 or T-80 vehicles. It could be just a group standing after a corner or something.

 

In such case you need man-in-the loop guidance to avoid misfires and collateral damage. This is on e of the reasons the laser guided hellfire is more used than the radar guided one in this theatre.

 

So yes, I would guess there is a strong case for using AGM-65E from A-10C, given the abundance of JTAC's on the ground and other air assets like UAV's that can provide guidance to the missile. That's the way it workd for the Marine Hornets anyway.

[SFJackBauer]

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123184118

 

From July thru December 2009, the squadron employed approximately 36,915 rounds of 30mm, 104 white-phosphorus rockets, eight MK-82's, nine GBU-12's and 78 GBU-38 JDAMs (all 500-lb. bombs), and one AGM-65E laser-guided Maverick missile. That's about $3.75 million worth of munitions.

 

Yes, it is employed. Yes, it is seldom employed, compared to other munitions.

[greg765]

Thanks SFJB !

 

So it is seldom employed but it is employed in operations.

It would maybe be more employed for an important conflict.

 

So, to my mind, it would be great to have this weapon . Is it an hardcore sim or not ? ;)

[VTJS17_Fire]

If the A-10C don't get the AGM-65E, you can make a mod for yourself.

 

The AGM-65E is active in FC 2.0 (in database), has a model and the A-10A can carry and launch this weapon. But for FC 2.0, we don't have an active Litening pod so we can't use it usefull.

I think in DCS:A-10C, this isn't a problem.

 

 

kind regards,

fire

[greg765]

Yes, you are probably right, I could make a mod for myself.

 

But I think that it would be better if it could be in the release :music_whistling:

 

I love realism, so I want, if possible, a realistic use of the weapon (to lock a target, ....), and the only way to be sure that it will be realistic, it's if it is done by ED (and not a simple modification that can be unrealistic (there are maybe specific specifications to use this missle....)).

 

So, let's see !

But please, ED !

 

If it has been used in Afghanistan, and if it is on my picture, it is operational !

 

LASER LASER LASER POWAA ! :megalol:

[636_Castle]

I can't help but notice the OP hasn't gotten an official answer from ED.

 

Anyway, here's what I dug up:

 

Published by the United States Navy as a Training Plan for the AGM-65E in 1998. The AGM-65E Laser Maverick Missile is currently in the Operational Support Phase of the Weapon System Acquisition Process. Before LOMAC was released in 2003 ;).

 

 

AGM-65E, designed by the US Navy.

 

The AGM-65E Laser Maverick Missile is designed primarily for use against armor and hardened ground targets requiring instantaneous or delayed blast fuzing during day or night operations and in adverse weather conditions, with sufficient standoff range to permit limited exposures to terminal defenses.

 

Here's an section taken out of A-10C The Battle Simulator:

 

The second phase of the A-10C DTS will provide support for the Situational Awareness Data Link (SADL), GPS-guided weapons, new communications systems, and AGM-65E laser-guided Maverick among other features. The A-10C DTS provides low-cost, portable simulation training for pilots transitioning to the A-10C and maintaining pilot proficiency.

[mvsgas]

I don't think game play will be degraded in anyway if AGM-65E is not in the release version of DCS A-10. I have only seen very few photos of the A-10C carrying those things and I will bet is more related to logistics and availability of the missiles rather than capabilities. What I mean by this is, there may be some situation where AGM-65E is probably more useful, safer to use or more accurate, but I bet the reason A-10s are carrying AGM-65E is because they where in the base available ( I think USMC was station there before with AV-8B+) Why bring a new set of missiles to the AOR and removed them out of the storage packaging where there are already missiles with open crates there. Opening the packages means the missiles now have to have regular maintenance cycles ( battery changes, corrosion checks, etc) Lack of training with the missile could be one of the factors for it's seldom use ( beside cost, practicality , etc)

 

Just my 2 cents