SU30 vs Super Hornet

[tflash]

This thread didn't simply derail: if fell from a cliff, plunged in an abyss, got spewn out into exospace by a volcanic eruption, where it cicled the earth until it got hit by a meteor and is now on a its way to andromeda.

 

Yet the end is still not in sight. What about F-22 against PAK-FA manned by Cylons? Or F-35 versus The Borg?

[sobek]

In "Military and Aviation" section:

"Su-35 vs F-22", "Mig-35 vs F-35", "EF-2000 vs Su-30", "EF-2000 vs F-15SE", "Su-35 vs F-15SE", "Rafale vs Su-30", "PAK-FA vs F-22", "PAK-FENG :doh: owning everything"

 

I put forth "My Trabant pwns your Ente anytime."

[Vault]

If it's without AB then the detection range would be greater with AB, so maybe that's not max detection range. Maybe the 90km rear hemisphere detection range is also without AB(or maybe even with engines turned-off -I can't prove that this is not the case) so the detection range with AB should be like 200km. Of course then there is no explanation why there is so big difference between frontal and rear hemisphere detection ranges.

Personally I think the frontal hemisphere range of 35km can only be achieved when there you there is a fire in a cockpit. Otherwise the range would be much smaller. Prove that I'm wrong.

 

I think you've failed to interpret the information correctly that you've used to dismiss the claims of others. Well at least you admit that you don't know if the OLS-35's detection range is for AB or non AB.

 

That data is for a non after burning target and you know it.

[exec]

That data is for a non after burning target and you know it.

LMAO :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

(actually there is other source about the OLS-35 and it claims 90km detection range, rear hemisphere, AB)

[monotwix]

Too little to late.

[monotwix]

[nscode]

People who run the Internet have called. They say it's overloaded, and ask you to stop.

[Krippz]

I would really hate for a bad apple to derail this topic and turn this thread into another locked one. Let's stop digressing and get back to the discussion.

 

As others have noted the Superhornet should have the first-look, first-shot advantage over the Su-30 in a BVR engagement. The Australian airforce does have the option of converting some of their F/A-18F's into F/A-18G's at some point which will also help mitigate the Su-30 in a potential BVR engagement. The only real advantage that I can see a Su-30MK/MKI having over the super hornet is a kinetic energy advantage and a range advantage.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Krippz

[tflash]

I would really hate for a bad apple to derail this topic and turn this thread into another locked one. Let's stop digressing and get back to the discussion.

 

As others have noted the Superhornet should have the first-look, first-shot advantage over the Su-30 in a BVR engagement. The Australian airforce does have the option of converting some of their F/A-18F's into F/A-18G's at some point which will also help mitigate the Su-30 in a potential BVR engagement. The only real advantage that I can see a Su-30MK/MKI having over the super hornet is a kinetic energy advantage and a range advantage.

 

On the range advantage I think we must take into account the A330MRTT Tanker. Super Hornet also allows for buddy refueling, I do not know if RAAF wants to make use of that capability.

[monotwix]

Why don’t you ask them?

[IronsightSniper]

I would really hate for a bad apple to derail this topic and turn this thread into another locked one. Let's stop digressing and get back to the discussion.

 

As others have noted the Superhornet should have the first-look, first-shot advantage over the Su-30 in a BVR engagement. The Australian airforce does have the option of converting some of their F/A-18F's into F/A-18G's at some point which will also help mitigate the Su-30 in a potential BVR engagement. The only real advantage that I can see a Su-30MK/MKI having over the super hornet is a kinetic energy advantage and a range advantage.

 

Thank you :D As for the derailment of the thread, I am sorry to have ever called upon Carlo Kopp to give you his analysis, it was wrong of me to put such an indiscriminate, biased, and to put it at minimum, wrong man, to stand for my case for the Su-30,

 

 

Anywho, we're not talking about Tankers, or Electronic warfare variants, just 2 front-line combat variants against each other. In my opinion, the most likely scenario would be a flight of F/A-18E/F's with a ground-attack and air-superiority armament flying across the Pacific to attack Indonesian front-line radars. Somehow, them radars spot the F/A-18E/F's, and air-superiority loadout Su-30s are scrambled.

 

Depending on the range of intercept, the F/A-18E/F would have the first look/shot advantage, but depending on the training(which is irrelevent in this thread's scenario), it would be up to the F/A-18/E/F's individual pilots to calculate the percise time to fire, as if the Su-30's are in the no-escape zone, they would be toast, however, with the range advantages of the R-77 over the AIM-120(information courtesy of http://www.deagle.com), the no escape zones for the R-77 would be at a longer range than the AIM-120's.

 

Because in my stated scenario, Superbugs are already at JSAW ranges of the Indonesian radars, they would of been detected by now, and depending on the distance between the nearest Indonesian air force base compared to the radar being struck, the Su-30 should be in detection range of the F/A-18E/F and vice versa. In this scenario, the R-27's exceptionally long range and high end-game maneuverbility would make the no escape zone so large, that if it was not a mission kill for the F/A-18E/F, it would of been a confirmed kill for it.

 

As for BVR combat, say 2 flights of Su-30 and F/A-18E/F converge somewhere in the middle of the Pacific, my hand still goes to the Su-30. Because I'm just not going to use Carlo Kopp's data on Su-30's radars, and I can't find any sources who straight-forwardly say which radar can detect what at how many kilometers, I'm just going to assume that the F/A-18E/F can detect the Su-30 well within AIM-120 range and the Su-30 can detect the F/A-18E/F at R-27-R-77 range. Therefor, radar detection wise, would allow both sides to fire their missiles at their max kinematic range, however, after that it would be more or less of a game of chicken, who's gonna mid-course guid their missiles and who's gonna do the Cobra.

[tflash]

As for BVR combat, say 2 flights of Su-30 and F/A-18E/F converge somewhere in the middle of the Pacific, my hand still goes to the Su-30.

 

Well, as I already said in #77:

 

Another aspect to consider when comparing performances is the theatre. If combat is supposed to be over sea, then radar performance, RCS, range and speed are extremely important.

 

But from this it doesn't follow necessarily that:

 

Therefore, radar detection wise, would allow both sides to fire their missiles at their max kinematic range, however, after that it would be more or less of a game of chicken, who's gonna mid-course guid their missiles and who's gonna do the Cobra.

 

If they have jammers on then it will not be the case they shoot at max range.

 

Besides, when making a comparison we should always use a realistic and complete scenario, otherwise the discussion is pointless and just reiterates what can be read from performance charts.

 

The complete scenario is that the Hornets have tanked in flight (which considerably enhances their range) and that Wedgetail has detected the Su-30's.

 

But I would agree with you that the Su-30's given their performance, speed, and range should have a go for it and have a reasonable chance to twarth a strike mission already deep over sea.

 

The Aussie Super Hornets do train for low-level ingress, following part of the tactics that were developed for the F-111, which only had its speed and low-level ability to defeat interception. The SH has much more on its bow.

 

(I'm just recanting what I read in some magazines, I'm no expert at all of course).

[GGTharos]

Anywho, we're not talking about Tankers, or Electronic warfare variants, just 2 front-line combat variants against each other. In my opinion, the most likely scenario would be a flight of F/A-18E/F's with a ground-attack and air-superiority armament flying across the Pacific to attack Indonesian front-line radars. Somehow, them radars spot the F/A-18E/F's, and air-superiority loadout Su-30s are scrambled.

 

That is simply not the way things are done. If you know you will be facing fighters, you send a fighter sweep ahead.

 

Depending on the range of intercept, the F/A-18E/F would have the first look/shot advantage, but depending on the training(which is irrelevent in this thread's scenario), it would be up to the F/A-18/E/F's individual pilots to calculate the percise time to fire, as if the Su-30's are in the no-escape zone, they would be toast, however, with the range advantages of the R-77 over the AIM-120(information courtesy of www.deagle.com), the no escape zones for the R-77 would be at a longer range than the AIM-120's.

 

The R-77 never had a range advantage, and AIM-120C5-7 just leave it in the dust.

If the F-18's are detected fairly late, thanks to low RCS, the Su-30's will never have time to get up to altitude and speed to even have BVR parity of any sort.

Not like it matters. Smaller RCS = later detection = bigger tactical freedom.

 

Because in my stated scenario, Superbugs are already at JSAW ranges of the Indonesian radars, they would of been detected by now, and depending on the distance between the nearest Indonesian air force base compared to the radar being struck, the Su-30 should be in detection range of the F/A-18E/F and vice versa. In this scenario, the R-27's exceptionally long range and high end-game maneuverbility would make the no escape zone so large, that if it was not a mission kill for the F/A-18E/F, it would of been a confirmed kill for it.

 

The R-27R has a 35-40km range high-high. Not a match for any version of AMRAAM, and the ER is usually not equipped in the fighter mission as it is better suited for bombers. They also allegedly time out at 60 seconds ;)

 

As for BVR combat, say 2 flights of Su-30 and F/A-18E/F converge somewhere in the middle of the Pacific, my hand still goes to the Su-30. Because I'm just not going to use Carlo Kopp's data on Su-30's radars, and I can't find any sources who straight-forwardly say which radar can detect what at how many kilometers, I'm just going to assume that the F/A-18E/F can detect the Su-30 well within AIM-120 range and the Su-30 can detect the F/A-18E/F at R-27-R-77 range. Therefor, radar detection wise, would allow both sides to fire their missiles at their max kinematic range, however, after that it would be more or less of a game of chicken, who's gonna mid-course guid their missiles and who's gonna do the Cobra.

 

Max detection range and missile superiority goes to the Superbug. Whoever has this advantage gets to start setting up their BVR scenario first, AKA arrive to the fight with advantage. And anyone who does the Cobra against a missile = dead. Speed is life. ;)

[IronsightSniper]

That is simply not the way things are done. If you know you will be facing fighters, you send a fighter sweep ahead.

 

Missile and fuel load outs changed.

 

The R-77 never had a range advantage, and AIM-120C5-7 just leave it in the dust.

If the F-18's are detected fairly late, thanks to low RCS, the Su-30's will never have time to get up to altitude and speed to even have BVR parity of any sort.

Not like it matters. Smaller RCS = later detection = bigger tactical freedom.

 

Le sigh, I have cited my source, time to cite yours. Deagle.com states the AIM-120C has a max kinematic range of 48 km, with the R-77's at 80 km(but due to range discrepancies I have decided to shorten it to a compromise of 65 km). As for the RCS, the Superbug does have a smaller RCS, but it's not small enough to get it within AIM-120 launching range before the Su-30 spots it.

 

The R-27R has a 35-40km range high-high. Not a match for any version of AMRAAM, and the ER is usually not equipped in the fighter mission as it is better suited for bombers. They also allegedly time out at 60 seconds ;)

 

Kak, since we do not know the variants of the R-27 the Indonesians would be using, it could be the baselin R-27 or maybe even the R-27AE, which has a max stated range of 130 km, and taking into your complex math of dividing stated ranges by half, that would make it 65 km. Still out ranging the AIM-120.

 

Sauce.

 

Max detection range and missile superiority goes to the Superbug. Whoever has this advantage gets to start setting up their BVR scenario first, AKA arrive to the fight with advantage. And anyone who does the Cobra against a missile = dead. Speed is life. ;)

 

Max detection range goes to the Superbug.

Missile superiority goes to the Flanker.

 

I agree, Speed is life, another nail in the coffin to NATO strategic thought.

[Krippz]

 

Le sigh, I have cited my source, time to cite yours. Deagle.com states the AIM-120C has a max kinematic range of 48 km, with the R-77's at 80 km(but due to range discrepancies I have decided to shorten it to a compromise of 65 km). As for the RCS, the Superbug does have a smaller RCS, but it's not small enough to get it within AIM-120 launching range before the Su-30 spots it.

 

Can you list a source for the Su-30's detection range of the F/A-18E/F in the frontal aspect at range?

[GGTharos]

Missile and fuel load outs changed.

 

... ?

 

Le sigh, I have cited my source, time to cite yours. Deagle.com states the AIM-120C has a max kinematic range of 48 km, with the R-77's at 80 km(but due to range discrepancies I have decided to shorten it to a compromise of 65 km). As for the RCS, the Superbug does have a smaller RCS, but it's not small enough to get it within AIM-120 launching range before the Su-30 spots it.

 

Pretty much every military operator's manual, states the useful range of AMRAAM is about 30nm. This is around 55km at an altitude of 30000'. Go higher, faster, shoot longer.

A couple other sources have already been posted in this thread regarding both AIM-120A and R-77. There also exist HUD videos with the WEZ in plain sight for AIM-120 at the least.

As for the RCS thing - I see you are misunderstanding how things work. Sure, the Su-30 can spot it 'before it gets into AMRAAM launching range' ... but it won't matter much if the F-18 gets the first look and runs its tactics first, i.e. it arrives with advantage.

 

 

Kak, since we do not know the variants of the R-27 the Indonesians would be using, it could be the baselin R-27 or maybe even the R-27AE, which has a max stated range of 130 km, and taking into your complex math of dividing stated ranges by half, that would make it 65 km. Still out ranging the AIM-120.

 

R-27AE does not exist. The R-27ER has a maximum range of about 66km at 10000' by the combat charts, which is about as long as an AIM-120C5, IIRC; it will also get to its target faster than a 120C ... if the target doesn't maneuver. I'm not sure where you get the idea that a missile several generations old would be a match a current weapon.

The Sauce is pretty weak against kinematic usage charts.

 

 

Max detection range goes to the Superbug.

Missile superiority goes to the Flanker.

 

Most certainly not. The only flankers that may have parity in terms of missile load are the Chinese flankers with PL-7.

 

I agree, Speed is life, another nail in the coffin to NATO strategic thought.

 

NATO has all the speed in the world, and the ability to project. And their opponents know it; never-mind that you went and took that way out of context in some deliberate attempt to ... do what? ;)

[GGTharos]

You can pretty much do the math by radar equation ... essentially though the RCS of the SH is about 1/20th that of the Su-30, assuming the Su-30 has a typical 'large fighter' RCS of around 10m^2. That means you detect a superbug at 1/2 the range you would detect the Su-30.

 

Since a typical fighter is detected at around 70-80nm for a large, powerful radar, and let's even got for 100nm with IRBIS ... I think you can see where the trouble is.

 

Can you list a source for the Su-30's detection range of the F/A-18E/F in the frontal aspect at range?

[IronsightSniper]

No, the only source that has that is Carlo Kopp and the last time that I used him for anything you guys expanded this thread by 23 pages, so, not gonna go there. But really, I'm working on the basis that if the S-400 can lock on to a 0.05 meter squared target from 90 km away, the BARS or whatever model of the Su-30 you choose for this brainstorm should be able to detect a 0.1 meter squared target from at least 50 km away, but there are a bunch of arguments you can make, bigger radars, different conditions, etc etc, so until you people stop your ad hominem on Carlo, I can't say that for certain no.

 

But at the same time, you can't say that the Superbug's radar can do the same.

 

 

... ?

 

 

 

Pretty much every military operator's manual, states the useful range of AMRAAM is about 30nm. This is around 55km at an altitude of 30000'. Go higher, faster, shoot longer.

A couple other sources have already been posted in this thread regarding both AIM-120A and R-77. There also exist HUD videos with the WEZ in plain sight for AIM-120 at the least.

As for the RCS thing - I see you are misunderstanding how things work. Sure, the Su-30 can spot it 'before it gets into AMRAAM launching range' ... but it won't matter much if the F-18 gets the first look and runs its tactics first, i.e. it arrives with advantage.

 

I don't see any sources?

 

As for your argument of the Superbug's tactical advantage, what's it gonna do? Get a higher altitude? In BVR combat it doesn't really matter the position(s) you start out with, only your missile and your electronics would matter. Only in a WVR environment would detecting first matter, as one could hide behind a mountain and do a sneak attack with a WVRAAM.

 

 

 

R-27AE does not exist. The R-27ER has a maximum range of about 66km at 10000' by the combat charts, which is about as long as an AIM-120C5, IIRC; it will also get to its target faster than a 120C ... if the target doesn't maneuver. I'm not sure where you get the idea that a missile several generations old would be a match a current weapon.

The Sauce is pretty weak against kinematic usage charts.

 

And you continue sauceless. Your "combat charts" are nothing but bits and pixels right now, please materialize them.

 

Most certainly not. The only flankers that may have parity in terms of missile load are the Chinese flankers with PL-7.

 

Most certainly so. It's me with 2 sauces and you with nilch. I don't wanna ad hominem you, but you're not doing so well.

 

NATO has all the speed in the world, and the ability to project. And their opponents know it; never-mind that you went and took that way out of context in some deliberate attempt to ... do what? ;)

 

All the speed yet we are 20 years back in time. We must be going FTL :O

Edited August 16, 2010 by IronsightSniper

[Boberro]

max stated range of 130 km, and taking into your complex math of dividing stated ranges by half, that would make it 65 km. Still out ranging the AIM-120.

 

Sauce.

 

130 km on 20 km alt I guess... who flies so high?

 

On that page EM range has 110-170 km LOOL

[IronsightSniper]

130 km on 20 km alt I guess... who flies so high?

 

On that page EM range has 110-170 km LOOL

 

Got a problem?

[GGTharos]

Incorrect reasoning. The S-400 STR is much larger than BARS, both in terms of physical size of the antenna and emitted power.

 

The BARS has a detection range of around 150km vs. a 5m^2 target (typical fighter target). You halve this range every time the RCS is 1/16th of that rating. And yes, actually, I can say the superbug quipped with APG-79 can do plenty, including simultaneous jamming of the Su-30's radar, while utterly screwing with the Su-30's jammer as well ;)

 

And, who mentioned Kopp here?

 

No, the only source that has that is Carlo Kopp and the last time that I used him for anything you guys expanded this thread by 23 pages, so, not gonna go there. But really, I'm working on the basis that if the S-400 can lock on to a 0.05 meter squared target from 90 km away, the BARS or whatever model of the Su-30 you choose for this brainstorm should be able to detect a 0.1 meter squared target from at least 50 km away, but there are a bunch of arguments you can make, bigger radars, different conditions, etc etc, so until you people stop your ad hominem on Carlo, I can't say that for certain no.

 

But at the same time, you can't say that the Superbug's radar can do the same.

[GGTharos]

Same airframe/rocket as the ER ... no point in assigning a different range.

 

Got a problem?

[IronsightSniper]

Incorrect reasoning. The S-400 STR is much larger than BARS, both in terms of physical size of the antenna and emitted power.

 

The BARS has a detection range of around 150km vs. a 5m^2 target (typical fighter target). You halve this range every time the RCS is 1/16th of that rating. And yes, actually, I can say the superbug quipped with APG-79 can do plenty, including simultaneous jamming of the Su-30's radar, while utterly screwing with the Su-30's jammer as well ;)

 

And, who mentioned Kopp here?

 

The burden of proof is on you my friend, now you have to post a graph of the APG-79 and it's detection ranges against various RCS :awesome:

 

Also, not a plenty of literature on Plasma stealth but on the skim chance that a Plasma stealth system is implemented on the R-27, it would reduce it's RCS to 0.1 meter squared :o

[GGTharos]

The burden of proof is on you my friend, now you have to post a graph of the APG-79 and it's detection ranges against various RCS :awesome:

 

Pretty silly thing to ask for. I don't recall you posting any graphs regarding the BARS. Or are you talking about the inherent capabilities of AESA radars? Yes, they can do that. They can literally change frequency for each pulse they belt out which makes a jammer that is based on repeating (most jammers) much less viable. That very same capability allows the radar to function as a very agile jammer while functioning as a radar.

 

Also, not a plenty of literature on Plasma stealth but on the skim chance that a Plasma stealth system is implemented on the R-27, it would reduce it's RCS to 0.1 meter squared :o

Plasma stealth does not exist. Forget it, it is a pipe-dream ... nothing short of a boogeyman that does not factor in the least when it comes to air combat. Consider that PAK-FA is implementing traditional stealth.

[Boberro]

Got a problem?

 

No, your site has.