targeting system capability question

[zangler]

i was watching this snippet from the show called Future Weapons and he talks about the new targeting system on the A-10C and (not trying to put much stock in a television show) says it can "...launch guided weapons from 30,000ft at 15mi away." he attributes this to the infrared targeting system.

 

are these numbers accurate, or more representative of the theoretical? and if the latter...what would be a more probabilistic alt/range for jdam delivery?

 

for the sake of the thread, please keep responses to information with some factual basis or RL experience, rather than the "i think that..." type stuff.

 

thanks!

[evilnate]

Additionaly to his question, will there be GPS guided JDAM in the game?

[sobek]

Yes JDAMs are in the sim. ;)

Edited September 21, 2010 by sobek

[Frederf]

The pod must be a Sniper XR. The A-10C can carry it now. I guess you could target a JDAM from angels 30 with it. Can't laze LGBs over about angels 24 though usually do to atmospheric electrical effects. Seems kind of silly though. If you were dropping from angels 30 onto a static target you could make out from that high, you'd just do a pre-planned drop anyway and pod wouldn't be necessary.

 

JDAMs have a glide range of a Mk-82 or LGB equivalent, which should be in the 8-24 km range so "up to 15 miles."

 

I wish I could find the maneuvering window graph for the GBU-38 but this one about the paveway series is pretty interesting. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-24.htm The fins on the GBU-24 being much better than the JDAM.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Frederf

[GGTharos]

The pod is a LITENING II in DCS A-10C.

 

Insofar as long ranged drops, 15nm sounds more like a datalinked maverick, because the A-10C just doesn't have the speed to launch a GBU very far, just IMHO.

Edited September 21, 2010 by GGTharos

[sobek]

I wish I could find the maneuvering window graph for the GBU-38 but this one about the paveway series is pretty interesting. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-24.htm The fins on the GBU-24 being much better than the JDAM.

 

Don't forget to distinguish between the Paveway II and III series. The former uses a bang-bang controller for guidance, which makes it aerodynamically less efficient. Dunno if that offsets the advantage through the bigger fins compared to JDAMs, though.

[GGTharos]

It does. Bang-bang navigation is less efficient than glide, and while GBU-38's aren't exactly gliding champions, they can probably do better than something with bang-bang navigation.

[Scabbers]

the reference from future weapons was of a maverick. and it was buddy lased.

[BlueRidgeDx]

Insofar as long ranged drops, 15nm sounds more like a datalinked maverick, because the A-10C just doesn't have the speed to launch a GBU very far, just IMHO.

 

If my math is right, a level delivery of a Mk-82 at 30,000ft and 280KIAS would yield a max slant range of about 42,000ft or 7nm which equates to an actual bomb range of about 30,000ft or 5nm.

 

I assume that the increased lift provided by the strakes of the GBU-38 would be offset by its maneuvering, so the end result would be roughly analogous to a slick Mk-82.

[Druid_]

Physics was never my strongest subject but a10c flying at 30k' ( or 5.7 miles) will be travelling at max 7 miles/min. Mk82s, GBU-38s will fall at an av speed of min 300 mph, 5 miles/min. So with 1.1 mins freefall it could fly horizontally for 7.7 miles (in a vacuum). Including freefall .... ummm ... any projectile trajectory wizards here?

 

Either way as GG implied no chance of 15 miles without propellant.

 

 

Edit: BlueRidgeDx beat me to it

Edited September 21, 2010 by Druid_

[Yellonet]

So bomb range isn't exactly stellar with the A-10C, but hopefully at least the precision will be better than with dumb bombs :)

[159th_Viper]

....but hopefully at least the precision will be better than with dumb bombs :)

 

Hell Yeah - you can swat a fly off an insurgent's backside from 25000ft with a fair degree of finesse I dare say!

[GGTharos]

Bomb range might not be stellar, but you can still own those pesky SA-15's well above their engagement altitude ;)

[Druid_]

Bomb range might not be stellar, but you can still own those pesky SA-15's well above their engagement altitude ;)

Yep, but lets hope their AD fighters are having the day off though!

[GGTharos]

That's what you have top cover for.

[Deadman]

GG good top cover is far and few in between oh for the days of the 44th some of the best :thumbup:

[Yellonet]

Hell Yeah - you can swat a fly off an insurgent's backside from 25000ft with a fair degree of finesse I dare say!

Well at the price you would'nt want them to go to waste:

Production unit cost $55,600 :crazy:

[159th_Viper]

Well at the price you would'nt want them to go to waste:

Production unit cost $55,600 :crazy:

 

Admittedly an expensive Fly-Swatter :huh:

 

Would be interesting to hear/note what implication finance has, if any, in an operational environment. But that's a discussion for another thread/day :)

[sobek]

Well at the price you would'nt want them to go to waste:

Production unit cost $55,600 :crazy:

 

Holy mother, anyone know how much the slick version is?

 

Damn that's a lot, especially if you mind that kiwi that designed and selfmade a cruise missile for a few thousand bucks a few years back.

[GGTharos]

Will his cruise missile work in adverse weather and electronic warfare conditions?

 

Will it guarantee a delivery of several thousand pounds of explosive with a CEP of 13m?

 

The purpose of the JDAM is precision strike. You don't have to carpet bomb a city square to hit things, you can drop it right on the building you want, pretty much guarantee it will hit the building you want, and that the surrounding buildings will only suffer small amounts of damage.

In addition, you can adjust the delivery profile to have that JDAM fly into caves, or strike from a particular heading or elevation, etc etc. Basically, you get that much flexibility out of doubling the price on your slick.

Not to mention that if you need to, you can ripple these things at separate targets in one pass.

[Frederf]

Don't forget to distinguish between the Paveway II and III series.

If you actually look at the link the graph has Mk-XX, paveway II, paveway III envelopes superimposed. :music_whistling:

 

I think the JDAM FCS is smart enough to manage its energy and calculate optimum profile and I do see "15 miles" quite a lot. The Paveway II is rather stupid but does have increased fin area. If you read the FAS graph, Paveway II should get just under 9 miles at 30K, with the slick around 6 miles. I would guess the range hierarchy would go: Paveway II, GBU-38, Paveway III with the latter two being quite close.

 

Somewhere in the $2000-$4000 range. Still the JDAM is a steal next to the $100,000+ AGM-65s.

[BlueRidgeDx]

Holy mother, anyone know how much the slick version is?

 

The 2007 price for a tritonal-based Mk-82 "All Up Round" was $1898.29 according to the Department of the Air Force procurement program.

 

For comparison, in that same year, the Air Force bought 7,261 JDAM kits at a cost of $21,000 each.

 

EDITED to add the JDAM reference.

Edited September 21, 2010 by BlueRidgeDx

[PhoenixBvo]

Said graph shows the Paveway III at Angels 30 has a reach of 90.000 ft or 14.81 NM which the future weapons guys might have rounded up to 15 NM. The important parameter not shown in the graph is of course launch velocity. That should have some effect as well, although height energy is much larger than kinetic at that altitude.

[Frederf]

A lot of times they will say "miles" meaning statue miles to inflate the number. 1 SM sounds better than 0.87NM.

[159th_Viper]

....I think the JDAM FCS is smart enough to manage its energy and calculate optimum profile...

 

Point-of-interest for what it's worth:

 

Just dropped a JDAM (GBU-38) from Angels 30. At time of impact I was at Angels 27, having extended 180 degrees and running like the clappers........Range to Target at impact - 12nm.

 

Talk about not knowin' what hit you..........:cry: :D