Bugtracker

[Erpe]

Hi all!

 

Wouldn't it a way better to have a dedicated bugtracking tool(mantis, bugzilla, flyspry,...) for reporting bugs, instead of using a forum(beta-forum), where I find it very hard to follow bug reports.

 

I guess ED has some internal bugtracking tool and I don't know how the workflow is, but I'm assuming that the moderaters/ED-beta testers reading through the lengthy beta forum and recreate that bugs in the internal tool?

 

I know that BIS-software has a similar approach and a community bugtracker here: http://dev-heaven.net/projects/show/cis

 

Cheers

[159th_Viper]

Hardware-Issues aside, the Test-Team are already aware of 99% of the issues being raised in the dedicated issues threads. We will filter them as necessary and submit them to the Bug-Tracking software already utilized as appropriate.

 

It's already a state of organised chaos bordering on anarchy on the Forums - I can only imagine what it would be like opening up the bug-tracker to the masses.......:D

[Eddie]

ED use Mantis. Only the ED team and those of us on the testing team have access, this won't be changing.

 

If bugs are reported by people playing the closed beta they will be checked my members of the testing team/ED team and added to Mantis is they are not already there.

 

I would add though, most (if not all) of the bugs I've seen posted in the forums are already known. Don't forget as well that the beta available to pre order customers is not the same as the beta used by the testing team or ED themselves, so some bugs people keep reporting may have been fixed for some time in internal/testers builds before being fixed in the closed beta.

[Erpe]

It's already a state of organised chaos bordering on anarchy on the Forums - I can only imagine what it would be like opening up the bug-tracker to the masses.......:D

 

I could imagine DOOMSDAY!

 

Well then happy filtering ;)

 

Cheers

[Bucic]

Aren't pre-purchasers told to report hardware related issues only?

[sobek]

Aren't pre-purchasers told to report hardware related issues only?

 

Well yes, that was the initial idea, but let me state it this way, people don't always read the CAPITAL LETTERS IN THE MIDDLE OF A STICKIE ;). The general consensus now is resignation, letting the good bugs through and ignoring the rest. :D

[159th_Viper]

Aren't pre-purchasers told to report hardware related issues only?

 

Well, that was the plan: It sort of snow-balled into a Boxing-Day sale.......2 prescriptions of Prozac later and there are now dedicated Sticky threads dealing with all relevant topics.

 

All users are again requested to post all issues in a relevant Sticky thread in the Open-Beta Forum. If you cannot find an applicable thread, post it in the General DCS: Warthog Forum from where it will be moved if necessary. No new threads in the Open-Beta Forum please!

 

Ta

[nscode]

...

 

No new threads in the Open-Beta Forum please!

 

Ta

 

forum user permitions anyone? :)

[asparagin]

It's already a state of organised chaos bordering on anarchy on the Forums - I can only imagine what it would be like opening up the bug-tracker to the masses.......:D

 

Haha true, I can't keep track of all posts. I think I'll keep my observations for later, when the hype is gone.

The worst is the "performance thread" where everyone posts fps observations without any standard.

[Feuerfalke]

Haha true, I can't keep track of all posts. I think I'll keep my observations for later, when the hype is gone.

The worst is the "performance thread" where everyone posts fps observations without any standard.

 

Thanks.

 

That's my favorite thread as well. And nobody listens to any coordinating act, to any rule and just post their a**es off with bugs already know. :crazy:

 

FAQ? What's that?

Forum Rules? Never saw them - to busy with creating new threads! My problem is really new and most important.

 

:)

 

I guess we all understand the excitement, though, so hopefully we'll be able to bring some order into chaos in the coming days. Wags, Groove, Viper and many others are already working double shifts - LOL

Edited October 7, 2010 by Feuerfalke

[Bucic]

Well yes, that was the initial idea, but let me state it this way, people don't always read the CAPITAL LETTERS IN THE MIDDLE OF A STICKIE ;). The general consensus now is resignation, letting the good bugs through and ignoring the rest. :D

 

Well, that was the plan: It sort of snow-balled into a Boxing-Day sale.......2 prescriptions of Prozac later and there are now dedicated Sticky threads dealing with all relevant topics.

I would ban their asses :D

 

BTW, a piece of advice if I may:

A prepared bug submission form would deal with 90% of the unrest. First - it would be rather hard to place omg omg omg etc. in a form without making a fool of oneself. Then separate cell for user comment which you could disregard automatically for thousands of forms ;) Finally a permission to discuss the bug on the beta forums only if it has been confirmed as a relevant issue, in a topic created by moderator.

 

Whalaa! :)

Edited October 7, 2010 by Bucic

[Feuerfalke]

I would ban their asses :D

 

BTW, a piece of advice if I may:

A prepared bug submission form would deal with 90% of the unrest. First - it would be rather hard to place omg omg omg etc. in a form without making a fool of oneself. Then separate cell for user comment which you could disregard automatically for thousands of forms ;) Finally a permission to discuss the bug on the beta forums only if it has been confirmed as a relevant issue, in a topic created by moderator.

 

Whalaa! :)

 

Nice idea - doesn't work.

 

There is a form with example posted on the forums how to report an issue, complete with machine details, drivers, etc.

 

Fact is OMGOMGOMG replaces all needed vital information, there is no confirmation of bugs, no steps how to reproduce crashes, no tracks or screenshots posted, no crash-reports, no matter how often this is asked for. :(

[Bucic]

Nice idea - doesn't work.

 

There is a form with example posted on the forums how to report an issue, complete with machine details, drivers, etc.

 

Fact is OMGOMGOMG replaces all needed vital information, there is no confirmation of bugs, no steps how to reproduce crashes, no tracks or screenshots posted, no crash-reports, no matter how often this is asked for. :(

I didn't mean a sample bug report. I mean external form with the ability to generate a full printer friendly version for quoting on the forums only.

 

Like opera bugs http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=335581&t=1286448804&page=1#comment3608561

 

People who got that bug report don't even have to check the topic, ever, if they don't feel like it.

[Feuerfalke]

I didn't mean a sample bug report. I mean external form with the ability to generate a full printer friendly version for quoting on the forums only.

 

Like opera bugs http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=335581&t=1286448804&page=1#comment3608561

 

People who got that bug report don't even have to check the topic, ever, if they don't feel like it.

 

That's not suitable.

 

ED has a staff of beta-testers, who are testing the simulation for quite a while now. They use a professional interface for reporting and discussing bugs. (MANTIS)

 

The open-beta, however, is designed to gather hardware compatibility reports. That's a completely different scope and a completely different level.

 

So the main issue now, is the fact that 99,9% of the reports are not at all related to hardware-issues, but to content- and software-bugs. That's not a problem of the interface, it's a problem of reading and understanding things ED needs as well as explanations and rules posted. The FAQ and Wags Welcome message, for example. It's also known that the search function does only work with a slight workaround, but that's one more reason to not spam the beta-forum, but post bugs here AFTER USING THE SEARCH FUNCTION for similar issues already reported.

 

I'm sure, though, once the first excitement has settled down a bit, the ED, the Testers Team and the Open Beta Team can start working coordinated on their tasks and support each other more effectively.

[Bucic]

That's not suitable.

 

ED has a staff of beta-testers, who are testing the simulation for quite a while now. They use a professional interface for reporting and discussing bugs. (MANTIS)

 

The open-beta, however, is designed to gather hardware compatibility reports. That's a completely different scope and a completely different level.

 

So the main issue now, is the fact that 99,9% of the reports are not at all related to hardware-issues, but to content- and software-bugs. That's not a problem of the interface, it's a problem of reading and understanding things ED needs as well as explanations and rules posted. The FAQ and Wags Welcome message, for example. It's also known that the search function does only work with a slight workaround, but that's one more reason to not spam the beta-forum, but post bugs here AFTER USING THE SEARCH FUNCTION for similar issues already reported.

 

I'm sure, though, once the first excitement has settled down a bit, the ED, the Testers Team and the Open Beta Team can start working coordinated on their tasks and support each other more effectively.

I agree.

 

I only provided an example of a professional software with an open beta policy. I thought it matches the DCS new development profile. I'm not even close to be aware of how the internal development process works, so I'll step aside.

 

BTW, I'd support a more liberal ban use. 1 day ban, a week ban. For OT and, especially, starting new topics that perfectly fit already existent ones and not reading the FAQ. I would become a victim of such policy more than once for sure but hey, for the common good, right? :)

 

Besides, why someone would take a short ban personally? It's for order and just that.

[Feuerfalke]

Well,...

1st - these people who are participating in the OpenBeta are people who already bought your product. The majority did so now, to participate in the open beta. Not good for business to ban them.

2nd - when a massive number of players starts into an open-beta, chaos is preprogrammed in the first days. I participated in a lot of different betas, can't remember a single one of them, where testers immediately acted like professionals.

3rd - of course there are methods to force them into a predesigned rigid pattern, but this needs a strict planning and coordinated manpower. For the assigned task, that's simply overkill, regarding timetables and plans.

 

Long story short: Things will cool down, things will work as intended. Maybe not immediately, but with a good balancing between effort and outcome. I think ED handles this pretty good.

[Bucic]

Understood. Well, good luck! Don't let them make you take any pills :)

[Feuerfalke]

Understood. Well, good luck! Don't let them make you take any pills :)

 

Too late - LOL :fear:

[Bucic]

:)

[Frederf]

So the main issue now, is the fact that 99,9% of the reports are not at all related to hardware-issues, but to content- and software-bugs. That's not a problem of the interface, it's a problem of reading and understanding things ED needs as well as explanations and rules posted.

 

I would disagree with that assessment. You can hardly blame users for doing what is the most sensible. Content bugs outweigh hardware-related faults by a huge margin when it comes to enjoying the game. You might get a crash every 20th game but if your bombs miss 70% of the time, guess which is going to have a higher natural priority.

 

If the bug tracker was at least passively visible to those "out of the loop" then at least we could be informed about what the "inner circle" is and is not aware of. All one can do now is to post a unique discovered issue and wait for an "inner circle" representative to rudely criticize the effort. Of course the person posting cannot possibly be aware of this needlessly secret information until it's too late.

 

By limiting beta user discussion to strictly hardware faults you ask two very unreasonable things of us:

 

1. That we refrain from informing each other.
   
2. That we trust ED to address all content-related issues without help.
   

Many users of a wide variety of skills are all trying to use this software together. It is vital for our sanity to discuss, discover, and confer what is working properly (and what is proper) and what isn't. Our needs as users include being able to inform each other of things like the brakes are bugged, the AM radio presets don't work, etc.

 

Secondly, ED has proven itself unable to be trusted to resolve content bugs. DCS:BS has been out for approximately TWO YEARS and there are content bugs which border on game-breaking like AI wingmen being unable to engage with civ traffic enabled and being unable to enter a commanded hold position.

 

What this arrangement is asking of the customer is:

 

• Give us your $60 USD
  
• Give us detailed hardware reports on crashes
  
• Don't report any content bugs
  
• Trust that we discover 100% of all content bugs
  
• Try to enjoy the game
  
• Don't discuss content bugs with others on these forums
  

It should be obvious that these directive are contrary to natural human behavior. When we discuss the HOTAS throttle pinky switch (since it's inadequately documented) it's going to come up that the anti-collision lights don't turn off in the center "dark" position like they should. If ED wants to cry about how we're reporting content bugs then boo-hoo, should have programmed it correctly in the first place.

 

It's necessary for us to discover and share content bugs user to user since ED has decided that apparently that information is top secret ED-eyes-only because otherwise we stand no chance of learning the aircraft systems and other facts properly.

[EtherealN]

What this arrangement is asking of the customer is:

 

• Give us your $60 USD
  
• Give us detailed hardware reports on crashes
  
• Don't report any content bugs
  
• Trust that we discover 100% of all content bugs
  
• Try to enjoy the game
  
• Don't discuss content bugs with others on these forums
  

 

Actually, no. What the "arrangement" is asking for is:

 

• Give us your $60 for your pre-order.
  
• Until the product is released you have a beta release available for use.
  
• If you have the time, we'd love information on hardware compatibility.
  

 

You seem to forget what the alternative is:

 

1) Pre-orders without beta access.

2) No pre-orders at all.

 

Simple fact is that the complex things need organization. You simply cannot have a huge group of random people hacking away and expect to get anything useful done. This is why ED has a Tester Team, and this has not changed by the Pre-order Beta. The latter is a complement to existing measures that can help cover the one major hole that internal testing cannot easily cover: hardware compatibility testing. There's just too many variables to cover them adequately in the closed testing team or in-house at the office.

 

This is extremely important:

You have not paid 60 dollars to be a beta tester. You paid 60 dollars for the final product, and was given access to a beta code in the meantime.

 

Remember this: 99% of the "bugs" I have seen discussed in the Open Beta section are bugs that are already fixed. There is that 1% that is left, sure, but there's a matter of organization.

[Bucic]

If you had banned two or three asses as an example in the beginning for posting unwanted "feedback", like I said, there would be no mess now :D

[EtherealN]

lol, I guess that's true, but that wouldn't be as much fun, now would it?

[Bucic]

Sure it would. You'd have to execute 3 bans every week to keep the mess from re-emerging :)

[Lixma 06]

Sure it would. You'd have to execute 3 bans every week to keep the mess from re-emerging :)

Tenko!