Proper Take Off and Landing Techniques

[Belphe]

Hi,

 

Could someone point me in the right direction or explain in detail how to "CORRECTLY" perform a take off and landing? I know that touchdown and lift-off speeds depend on the weight of the aircraft but there obviously are some standardized speeds, angles and techniques.

 

For the time being, I'm trying to touch down at speeds of about 150 (on HUD), with full air brakes, full flaps, nose wheel steering off and 75% thrust. I bet it's wrong because I get the nose wheel ripped off 4 out of 5 times seconds after it touches the ground (landing on the airfield north of Las Vegas, Nevada). I've noticed it's a bit rough but this happens on flat and before I even start braking.

 

Also, in the manual it says to start rising the nose up to about 10 degrees at speeds over 100 (on HUD?) at take offs, keep it that way and let the aircraft lift on it's own. 100 is a bit slow to pitch the nose so I pull the stick all the way which later produces a very unstable take off and a risk of stall. If I keep the nose wheel rolling for too long I end up with a failure and the wheel doesn't retract...

 

Please, advise.

[sobek]

For the time being, I'm trying to touch down at speeds of about 150 (on HUD), with full air brakes, full flaps, nose wheel steering off and 75% thrust. I bet it's wrong because I get the nose wheel ripped off 4 out of 5 times seconds after it touches the ground (landing on the airfield north of Las Vegas, Nevada). I've noticed it's a bit rough but this happens on flat and before I even start braking.

 

Just a few tips is all i can offer, maybe there's a RL piot who want's to go into the details.

 

Do not land by speed, land by AoA. The three colored lights left of the HUD show your AoA. On final, decrease speed until the middle green one lights up an stay at that very speed, because it is the optimal speed for your wheight.

 

The HUD is a very helpful thing when trying to learn to land. Your glideslope should be 3°. Unfortunately, unlike the F-16, the A-10 does not have a 3 degree line on the HUD when gear is extended, nevertheless you can guess, taking the 5 degree line as a reference. Maneuver so that the imaginary/guessed 3 degree line is over your desired touchdown point. Keep it there. If it moves down, you are too low and your slope is too shallow. Vice versa with up. To keep it there, simply see to it that your FPM points also at the desired touchdown point. All this while maintaining correct AoA through speed. If all these points are met, you will arrive for the flare in a perfect manner.

 

I'm guessing that upon touchdown, you are enabling NWS. Do not do this. Keep the aircraft lined up with your brakes and rudder, NOT with NWS, until you have considerably slowed down (50 kts or so)

 

Also, in the manual it says to start rising the nose up to about 10 degrees at speeds over 100 (on HUD?) at take offs, keep it that way and let the aircraft lift on it's own. 100 is a bit slow to pitch the nose so I pull the stick all the way which later produces a very unstable take off and a risk of stall. If I keep the nose wheel rolling for too long I end up with a failure and the wheel doesn't retract...

 

Probably because you didn't disable NWS at 70kts.

 

Also, are you maintaining 10 degrees nose up during the departure, or are you pulling up further?

[sinelnic]

Hi,

 

Could someone point me in the right direction or explain in detail how to "CORRECTLY" perform a take off and landing? I know that touchdown and lift-off speeds depend on the weight of the aircraft but there obviously are some standardized speeds, angles and techniques.

 

For the time being, I'm trying to touch down at speeds of about 150 (on HUD), with full air brakes, full flaps, nose wheel steering off and 75% thrust. I bet it's wrong because I get the nose wheel ripped off 4 out of 5 times seconds after it touches the ground (landing on the airfield north of Las Vegas, Nevada). I've noticed it's a bit rough but this happens on flat and before I even start braking.

 

Also, in the manual it says to start rising the nose up to about 10 degrees at speeds over 100 (on HUD?) at take offs, keep it that way and let the aircraft lift on it's own. 100 is a bit slow to pitch the nose so I pull the stick all the way which later produces a very unstable take off and a risk of stall. If I keep the nose wheel rolling for too long I end up with a failure and the wheel doesn't retract...

 

Please, advise.

 

I´d suggest you post a track of your landings, but, if you´re ripping only your nosewheel, and assuming you're not landing on it first (:)), try to ease the lowering of the nose after touchdown. Also keep an eye on your vertical speed, you should not exceed 5 fpm and try to touch down at less than 3fpm.

 

For your TO, I´d simply suggest not to pull the joystick all the way back, but half or 2/3rds, and also ease on it once you get the nose to start pitching up.

[timc]

You're correct that it depends on weight so the following may be incorrect if you are on the lardy side at take off and landing: seems like you could be too fast on landing and not fast enough on takeoff.

 

I'm taking off at 33,000 lbs gross weight (no combat load) and the rotation speed is around 125kts. Landing at around 30,000 lbs the approach speed is 120kts with touchdown at 110kts. These figures are taken from the charts contained in the original A-10A manual which can be found in the sticky thread regarding manuals and documents. (I'd post a link but I'm inept at that kind of thing). They take a bit of time to go through but you probably only want the take off and landing charts.

 

For clarity, I use these reference speeds in conjunction with the AoA indicator and croiss check that with my vertical speed - I think that sinelnic means 300 fpm on touchdown, not 3fpm.

 

Hope this helps.

[WarriorX]

If you land with "anti skid" turned off, and you use your wheel brakes, the tires lock up and can burst.

[Headspace]

150kts is a little on the fast side. As of beta one I can get it into a landing configuration at around 110kts when the airplane is loaded light.

 

With landing, you want to keep it at a fairly uniform AoA and then use your power to control sink rate. The whole "power for altitude" principle being applied in this case. The AoA indicator is useful, as are the lights to the left of the HUD. Get the airplane into a config where you're maintaining a fairly constant airspeed, adjust your sink rate using throttle to get on the glide slope, and stay there until it is time to flare.

 

If you are at a higher speed than you want, increase pitch. This may seem counter intuitive but you will soon see AoA increase and your speed is going to drop off with an accompanying increase in sink rate. Just remember not to stall.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Headspace

[BlueRidgeDx]

Have a look-see in the Beta "General Questions" Forum. I posted the A-10 TOLD for Nellis, and it should give you a good idea of the speeds to fly for takeoff and landing.

 

While it's certainly true that the indexer is the primary reference for the approach, you should also know the approach speed for your gross weight in order to crosscheck the indexer.

 

You should never fly slower than the computed approach speed, even if the indexer wants you to, per the Dash-1, and per the 3-3.

[Headspace]

I was going to do departures (stalls, spins, PSGs, etc) for my next training vid (after the manual reversion/trim vid is complete) but it's occurred to me that people might find a video tutorial on how to properly land the plane--as well as how to execute a crosswind landing--to be useful. Is this something that you would all be interested in?

[Arclight]

Very much so. Can't quite seem to get my rotations and finals right yet; any material on the subject would certainly be appreciated. :book:

 

Especially with the training mission inop and the manual failing to detail t/o and landing speeds.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Arclight

[Fimble]

The best answer I ever heard to the question, what's the correct speed for landing was: Whatever speed you're flying when your FPM is on the threshold and angle of attack is correct for the plane you're in.

 

In other words, if your speed was a million knots then so be it, make sure your AoA is stable (you're not bobbing up and down) and correct for the bird you're flying and keep the FPM on the threshold. Also, I was always taught to manage altitude with the throttle and speed with the stick which is opposite of what you're used to and thus unintuitive.

 

Not sure how the Hog is on approach but I imagine these fundamentals still apply.

 

Deviating from proper procedure, I often apply a decent amount of throttle just before touchdowns for those airline quality touchdowns. YMMV on that one ;)

Edited October 18, 2010 by Fimble

[Arclight]

Considering I have failed to grab the performance charts for the A-10A, I was afraid to go below 145kts because I didn't know how far I could push it. Aparently you should land considerably slower.

 

Just an example of why I would indeed appreciate some more instructions/learning material. At the moment it's more trial&error. ;)

[Andrei]

I didn't know how far I could push it.

 

6.000 feet, flaps down, gear down, throttles back, do your testing :) Just don't forget to subtract couple knots for atmospheric pressure ;)

[JimMack]

I was going to do departures (stalls, spins, PSGs, etc) for my next training vid (after the manual reversion/trim vid is complete) but it's occurred to me that people might find a video tutorial on how to properly land the plane--as well as how to execute a crosswind landing--to be useful. Is this something that you would all be interested in?

 

Please note that the current role rate in the current beta is too slow. In a forthcoming beta it will be corrected.

[Headspace]

Please note that the current role rate in the current beta is too slow. In a forthcoming beta it will be corrected.

Acknowledged; I'll hold off then until it's fixed. No use giving out information that's going to change immediately. I appreciate the heads-up.

[CrashEd]

Is this something that you would all be interested in?

 

I was going to do departures (stalls, spins, PSGs, etc) for my next training vid (after the manual reversion/trim vid is complete) but it's occurred to me that people might find a video tutorial on how to properly land the plane--as well as how to execute a crosswind landing--to be useful.

 

I think this is something a lot of people would be interested in :thumbup:

[Headspace]

Given ED's indication that roll rate needs to be tweaked (and this is a big deal when it comes to departures) I will hold off on that and do landing for my next vid.

[StrongHarm]

Successful VFR with stbd horizontal stab gone.

[Belphe]

Great answers everyone! Thanks! I've got a track however, where for some reason the nose wheel gets damaged... It happens to me quite often and I don't know why... Any ideas?

Test.trk

[arality]

Landing gear seems A-OK in the track file. Are you sure that's the right one? :dunno:

 

However a clean hog can rotate a lot sooner.

[chaos]

mangaroca,

I've reviewed your track and I don't see you doing anything wrong (except rotating too late..). It seems your A-10 hits a bump on the runway, thereby damaging the nose-wheel assy. If you look at your nose-wheel (F2-view) in slo-motion, you can see that it fully compresses as you're about to 'hit' one of the last set of the piano-keys. I've done the same take-off, lifting the nosewheel early (avoiding the bump). I can then raise the gear as per normal... Even if I stray off course a little bit during the take-off run I miss the bump.

 

Bug in Groom Lake/Nevada map?

Edited October 18, 2010 by chaos

[Belphe]

Landing gear seems A-OK in the track file. Are you sure that's the right one? :dunno:

 

However a clean hog can rotate a lot sooner.

 

The nose wheel won't retract as it got damaged - sometimes it falls off...

 

Yes, I'd say this "abandoned" airport seems to be a bit dangerous... I'm moving to Nellis :)

 

PS. Does "rotating" mean lifting the nose wheel off the ground while the main gear stays on?

Edited October 18, 2010 by Belphe

[Frederf]

On landing or take off? Are you resting the nose wheel on the runway at about 90 knots on roll out? NWS wouldn't happen to be on?

[aaron886]

The best answer I ever heard to the question, what's the correct speed for landing was: Whatever speed you're flying when your FPM is on the threshold and angle of attack is correct for the plane you're in.

 

In other words, if your speed was a million knots then so be it, make sure your AoA is stable (you're not bobbing up and down) and correct for the bird you're flying and keep the FPM on the threshold.

 

 

I would imagine you would tend to fly a little faster than an on-AOA airspeed on final. BlueRidgeDx mentioned he posted -1 approach speeds for the A-10... they are significantly faster than what would get you a blue donut in most landing weights. You want to touch down on AOA, but flying the entire approach on AOA seems very slow most times, even for the Hog. I would imagine RW Hog pilots are going to sacrifice a little landing distance in favor of a softer touchdown and safer final via some "cushion" airspeed.

[BlueRidgeDx]

PS. Does "rotating" mean lifting the nose wheel off the ground while the main gear stays on?

 

Exactly. :thumbup:

[arality]

Ok so I've been playing around with your track a bit more, because in every replay your gear is fine. I even flew your replay myself doing what you do to no avail, aside from once. I heard a loud thumping noise at the first set of strips on the runway, and my gear was toast.

 

If you goto a outside camera and look at the runway, there is a "little" bump in that part of the runway, Wags said the damage modeling was still a WIP so I'm assuming it's just a beta bug.