Inflight refueling

[Fabri91]

Those were Italian AMXs there, tusler :) one can hear how the pilot is "not amused"...

[TeeJay82]

here is a couple of vid's I found.

I would not want to be the next guy in line to get fuel.

 

http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-refueling-fail-%5BpGS8dwQSWzI%5D.cfm :megalol:

 

hahaha the hose just went mental and whistles f**k you all

 

also in the second vid, aint that the drill sarge from full metal jacket? more importantly... what is his show called? i wanna see more of him :) awesome guy

[Revelation]

ESzczesniak, knowing what we know it's pretty obvious that Falcon 4.0 etc. got AAR refueling wrong with regards to the PDL/PDI showing directions before even connecting. Does DCS:A-10C follow suit with these mistakes or does it get it right?

 

Also, how's the night lighting for AAR? There should be all manner of reflective strips, flood lighting, boom lighting, etc.

 

Falcon 4 got it right, an f-16 cannot see the boom prior or during refuel. That's the purpose of the lights, for pilots of AC that do not have another visual reference point, to tell a pilot the correct position for refueling operations.

[ESzczesniak]

...more importantly... what is his show called? i wanna see more of him :) awesome guy

 

The show is called "Mail Call". It airs on either History Channel or Discovery Channel. I don't recall which at the moment, but is definitely an awesome show where lot's of %$#^ blows up.

[dane48]

Make sure you selected Player for your A-10 and that your start times are all the same and match the mission start time.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by dane48

what am I doing wrong? With this mission, it starts up with the Kc-135 tanker flying and I am not in the A-10. Was this just a MP mission? Thank you

 

 

 

I really don't understand this I am sorry to say. With other user missions and missions available, I start out in the A-10 whether it is on the ramp, or in the air. So I don't understand what you mean by selecting Player for A-10. Do I have to make this mission myself? Someday I may want to try that but not having any Lock On and about 2 hours of DCS Black Shark, I am confused. Thank you in advance to anyone. And thanks Kylania, I just need a little more help

__________________

[ESzczesniak]

Falcon 4 got it right, an f-16 cannot see the boom prior or during refuel. That's the purpose of the lights, for pilots of AC that do not have another visual reference point, to tell a pilot the correct position for refueling operations.

 

In fact, it only got it half right. The lights still only reference the boom position (in real life, not true in F4). They are correct after contact/latch.

 

However, priot to that point the lights have no meaning. Even though the pilot can not see the boom, he/she must fly the picture outside the window to get in to approximately the right position. The lights do not help the pilot get there. That is what calls from the boom operator are for.

 

The only realistic option guiding a pilot to the boom with the technology available at the time of the KC-10/KC-135R's would be Frensal lenses. Unfortunately, these would require reprogramming for each new aircraft type and are not realistic for feasibility. For modern electronics, it may be feasible, but anything that is in mainstream military use is 5-10 years behind current ability (for good reason, it has proven reliability at this pont).

[shu77]

Youve problaby set the plane task to refuel, which changes it to a KC135. To refuel you need a KC135 with a refuel mission and an A-10 with any mossion, and the pilot set to player

[kylania]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dane48

I really don't understand this I am sorry to say. With other user missions and missions available, I start out in the A-10 whether it is on the ramp, or in the air. So I don't understand what you mean by selecting Player for A-10. Do I have to make this mission myself? Someday I may want to try that but not having any Lock On and about 2 hours of DCS Black Shark, I am confused. Thank you in advance to anyone. And thanks Kylania, I just need a little more help

 

Oops, sorry dane, I thought you were having a problem with a mission YOU made, not one someone else did. I'll download that mission and see if I can't figure it out for ya. :)

[thenewarea51]

I setup 131 AM in the advanced section of the mission editor and changed the callsign to SHELL

 

In game when

I selected the VHF radio in AM mode and hit the VHF AM HOTAS mic switch, the menu pops up and I hit F6 for tanker, but there is never anything in the tanker menu, am I missing something?

[kylania]

Yup, that was a MP only mission without a Player, that's why there was no starting in a plane, Dane. Here's the Single Player version of it.

 

Btw, I'm nowhere near good enough a pilot to do that. I could get close, but as I got closer I got clumsier! 4 aborted approaches before I finally clipped a wing! heh

[hog_driver111th]

One thing I find interesting. I've never flown to the tanker real life (been in an F-16 when it happened) and I've been in the boomer's spot when an F-16 was refueling. Strange thing is, since the boom is hydraulically operated, the boomer can "fly" the aircraft being refueled (mainly when it's a fighter) in an area of the boom's envelope. Obviously the pilot still needs to be hands on, but the boomer can move them around to keep the shadow of the tail over the pilot. It's strange then that it seems so difficult though to maintain on the boom position.

[Frederf]

Falcon 4 got it right, an f-16 cannot see the boom prior or during refuel. That's the purpose of the lights, for pilots of AC that do not have another visual reference point, to tell a pilot the correct position for refueling operations.

 

Falcon 4 got it wrong. The lights are driven by the boom motion, not aircraft position. Their purpose is to keep the pilot within boom limits after contact. The lights show nothing meaningful pre-contact.

 

Any pilot simply has a set visual reference to fly to a good position and stabilize. Any boom operator will tell you there's little more annoying than a pilot trying to fly to contact instead of simply getting "close enough" and letting the boom operator do his job.

[kylania]

Any pilot simply has a set visual reference to fly to a good position and stabilize. Any boom operator will tell you there's little more annoying than a pilot trying to fly to contact instead of simply getting "close enough" and letting the boom operator do his job.

 

Is that how it works in A-10C? Things seemed pretty stable till I got close, then everything was all over the place. I'm pretty sure it was because I was over compensating though and trying to fly up to the boom. The boom won't come to me, will it?

[Frederf]

In the program? Can't say. Most of the time the wobble is the pilot getting anxious and focused on the near object causing all sorts of over corrections. Flying the horizon or the tanker results in less problems than flying the boom.

 

Most flight sims that have AAR will only start moving the boom from the pre-contact orientation once you're what is considered "close enough." DCS:A-10C is pretty detailed and correct in other regards so probably is true to real life for this as well. The boom should come to you once you're stable and in position.

 

I should clarify, the PDLs can be used to direct an airplane from the astern position to the contact position, but it's the unusual radio silent procedures. Normally one is in verbal communication with the tanker to contact and the PDLs come on the second one makes contact.

 

Also for fun, normal KC-135 orbit speed is lower of 275 KIAS or 0.78M. The A-10 is a special case; higher of 220 KIAS or charted hold speed.

[warzenschwein01]

After many attempts I finally managed to take on 4500 lbs of fuel. Interestingly it took about 100 seconds to do that.

 

Since it is almost impossible to watch the boom and the horizon at the same time, I found it helpful to use the autopilot in ALT mode. :smartass:

 

Edited November 5, 2010 by warzenschwein01

[Fopeyducker]

Is that how it works in A-10C? Things seemed pretty stable till I got close, then everything was all over the place. I'm pretty sure it was because I was over compensating though and trying to fly up to the boom. The boom won't come to me, will it?

 

Fly the tanker not the boom. The boom operator will fly the boom to you when in range. Only time you look at the boom is once you are connected, then you have to check the colour code on the boom from time to time to make sure your speed is ok.

 

For those that are struggling or have old, stiff joysticks just use the ALT/HDG auto pilot, makes refuelling VERY easy to do. I can connect first time EVERY time with that and go from 500lbs to full tanks.

 

No auto pilot is a lot harder but still do-able, best I've managed with that is 500lbs to 3,500 before I got a "wobble" on lol

Edited November 5, 2010 by Fopeyducker

[andysim]

tried a few times but never with the AP. maybe I give it a try tonight but im guessing its not how its done in real life. So I will one day have to learn to do it on my own:megalol:

 

Just tried it and managed to take on a whole 2000lbs of fuel! before I did a wobbly and smacked onto the bottom of the tanker and died. My A-10 was still flying but my canopy was smashed in and I only had the outside view and no controls so Im guessing my pilot died =(.

 

I did some more testing and wingman will refuel if you let him go first using Radio/Wingman/Navigation/ Fly to tanker. Theres no boom animation but he gets fuel as it show on the Debrief that Pilot 2 (my wingman) gets refueled. Now if only I could do it as well as he does hehe.

Edited November 5, 2010 by andysim

[Druid_]

A couple of things I noticed:-

- the frequency for the tanker (e.g. 131.0) has to be FM and NOT AM for the comms to work for me.

- According to the a10a Flight Manual, the tanker will automatically disconnect if excessive fuel pressure occurs in the receiver fuel manifold. Don't know if this is modelled.

- I would like to know what the refuel rate is for the a10. For aircraft like the Phantom with large diameter plumbing it was 2000kgs/min, the Tornado with weight saving plumbing was closer to 700kgs/min.

 

Looking at Warzens.. video, it look like about 2500lbs /min

Edited November 6, 2010 by Druid_

[skypirate]

After many attempts I finally managed to take on 4500 lbs of fuel. Interestingly it took about 100 seconds to do that.

 

Since it is almost impossible to watch the boom and the horizon at the same time, I found it helpful to use the autopilot in ALT mode. :smartass:

 

Interesting video.... Throughout the refueling you are making quite drastic throttle changes. Obviously worked because you were connected and taking fuel. I just wondered if that might be the right technique.....

[ESzczesniak]

Interesting video.... Throughout the refueling you are making quite drastic throttle changes. Obviously worked because you were connected and taking fuel. I just wondered if that might be the right technique.....

 

I would imagine you would rather be making smaller smooth throttle changes. However, if you ever get a chance to see some cockpit videos of the Blue Angles or Thunderbirds, you'll see that they often make quick and drastic throttle changes as well while flying in tight formation. Sometimes it's just what you have to do to get the job done.

[koyan]

I did some more testing and wingman will refuel if you let him go first using Radio/Wingman/Navigation/ Fly to tanker. Theres no boom animation but he gets fuel as it show on the Debrief that Pilot 2 (my wingman) gets refueled. Now if only I could do it as well as he does hehe.

 

 

I tried this too with a wingman but it looks like a WIP to me. He positions himself correct but the boom did never connect. And he wouldn't listen to other commands either, he just stayed there (did look very easy for him, even when banking through the turn). I went rtb and after landing i watched external views but only the tanker and myself were left, he must have crashed, out of fuel.

[andysim]

my wingman deffinatly disconected after a few mins and rejoined so im not sure what happened to your guy, but your right the boom does stay in its up position but he still takes fuel. In my debrief it said "Pilot #2 Refuled". :)

[JHepburn]

Saw this a few months ago that shows one of the virtual thunderbirds flying at E3. Control inputs are pretty drastic in those tight formations.

 

[Revelation]

Hey all, I actually figured out what the problem was. When I created a mission for AAR, I created a flight plan, set the flight plan as refuel as the in-route option. I set the speed to roughly 200Knots and the altitude to 13,000.

 

For those that are designing their own missions. Create 1 waypoint, click add at the bottom under advanced. Set the first option to assign tacan. Add a new option to refuel in-route. Add a third option to orbit, then select race track or circle.

 

Place your A-10 wherever you want. The KC-135 will automatically fly at the right altitude of 10,000 and speed of roughly 270 Knots. With this setup, I don't get the immediate disconnects I was experiencing when I was "forcing" the KC-135 to fly within my preset parameters.

 

Now I can take on fuel and I now have true user errors that I need to work on to perfect my AAR abilities.

 

I still have the issue that after I disconnect, I cannot get the KC-135 to respond to my requests to try to reconnect. I imagine this is a beta thing, if anyone knows a better way - please feel free to post.

[dane48]

Trying to fly the tanker and not the boom. I am on about my 6th attempt now and the closest I get is careeming it off the nose. Last few times I have went invulnerable but for some reason my tanker disappeared after I hit him. And I was invulnerable!. Have put the boom thru my canopy twice! How is anyone else doing?