Dynamic Campaign Discussion Thread

[evilnate]

If ED is working on a dynamic campaign, I hope there will be a way to measure the impact of completed or failed packages. For example airbases, factories, and other war support entities' effectiveness or reduced when the local power plant or substation is damaged. EW capabilities are reduced when command and control targets are damaged.

 

This with combined arms would make a masterpiece.

[tobaschi]

i put 100€ on the table for a dynamic campaign (after edge and f-18 :-) )

[taps]

I fail to see how a DC can currently be possible considering how slow the game runs with only say 100 active ground units.

[NineLine]

I fail to see how a DC can currently be possible considering how slow the game runs with only say 100 active ground units.

 

Dynamic doesnt mean that the entire maps has to be full of units, it just means that the info from one mission is carried over to the next mission... Obviously anything that could effect the units in that mission should be in there, as far as supplies and such...

[WRAITH]

Time for DCS Seriers SP Theaters with Dynamic Campaigns to Own the Trade Name!

 

i put 100€ on the table for a dynamic campaign (after edge and f-18 :-) )

 

Oh yeah thats right I agree, Edge effort or Unity3D would be kool I mean just imagine Single Player Theaters of WAR with Dynamic Campaigns as per my post here

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1936400&postcount=896

 

But with new GFX engine like these videos.......... :thumbup:

 

Unity3D GFX Engine

 

http://youtu.be/wZIY622nOVk

 

there web link http://unity3d.com/

 

Edge GFX Engine

 

 

Link here http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/dcs-new-edge-graphics-engine-video-60-autumn-sale.453376113/

 

This post is worth reading............ http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1946433&postcount=73

 

I mean I'm sick of the .......... http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-M5pbP3qnEx0/T4VbzxP4_sI/AAAAAAAAARU/hxidcj78AC0/s1600/The_waiting_game_logo.jpg :doh:

 

You would think now with FreeFalcon gone DCS would jump at the idea!?!?!?!

 

I MEAN HOW MUCH CASH WOULD ED - DCS need for each SP Theater with 3 Dynamic Campaigns in each Theater.

 

We customers will pay..............

 

 

 

CLARIFICATION OF TERMS USED IN AIR COMBAT SIMULATORS

 

Now terms like “Theaters, Campaigns, Missions, Battlefield, Artificial Intelligence, (A.i), Warfare”

 

.....… etc are not owned by any game title including Microprose/Atari

Falcon 4.0 but the very essence of anything relating to military defense and strategy games.

Some links to read:-

Military (Theaters )Warfare:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_theater

 

 

Military Wars:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War

 

Military (Campaign) Warfare:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_campaign

 

Artificial intelligence (video games):- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artific...video_games%29

 

"No Game Title” or “EULA” owns those terms legally!

 

They are concepts or descriptions and they are found in every video game that’s based around WAR as per say.

 

i.e.

 

* Call of Duty

* Battlefied4

* HAWX 1&2

* FSX@WAR Add-on

* ED-DCS A10-C ............... Even your own Campaign Mission Editor - "Georgian Theater of War"!

 

 

…………………… for example and many more games use those terms.

 

Now going back to my discussion its more of a “Please” will DCS develop more “Theaters of WAR with Military Campaigns" that have been fought “Historically or Theoretical" scenarios in Modern WAR Theaters. This is what makes a great Combat Sim game and I prefer Single Player with Multi Player capable.

 

The discussion is evolving from an undefined “GFX Engine” to a defined “GFX Engine” that DCS is moving with, and these are questions yet to be answered as many here or customers of your product would love to know about. That is the intents and purposes of the “EDGE GFX Engine” and how that will develop with DCS.

 

Military Historical and Theoretical Wars:-

 

* Vietnam

* Taiwan

* Balkans

* Korean

* Afganistan

* Israeli - Yom Kipor

* Iraq – Operation Desert Storm

* Europes Fall

* Libyan Crisis

 

……………… just to name a few, with so many possibilities, the creativity here is as far as the imagination of developers!

 

Thats why many others as myself use this link as an example to illustrate what can be done in a DCS Series ( DSC Theaters with Dynamic or Advanced A.i Campaign) ......... [ame=http://www.lead-pursuit.com/downloads/understanding_the_campaign.pdf]http://www.lead-pursuit.com/download...e_campaign.pdf[/ame]

 

Also this is a kool read ............... [ame]http://www.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/TimLenoir/Publications/Lenoir-Lowood_TheatersOfWar.pdf[/ame]

 

So I hope I have raised a better argument for discussion for DCS Theaters of WAR with Dynamic Campaigns say 3 per Theater. Also suitable GFX Engines and direction, its really a critical part to Air Combat that has been missing for a long time now.

 

You got to expect from people either buying this product or using it to ask probing questions about development plans with thoughts and expressions and referencing other products to some respectable sense. Its only natural that people are curious and desire more from this product.

 

The point is about developing more "DCS Theaters of WAR" with at least three A.i Dynamic Campaigns, that's what people enjoy in Combat Simulators!

 

I hope that reads better and discussion taken for what it is in this Thread!

 

Maybe this development section creating Theaters for DCS could be allowed as open source or some sort of Community Project arrangement using a plug-in and modeling tools and submit that to DCS Developers, whilst the DCS Source code still remains guarded and private.................. just some kind of open door to develop further what the DCS community would like.

 

Well just sharing out loud, no harm in that I guess!

 

Cheers,

 

:beer:

Edited June 18, 2016 by WRAITH

[riboyster]

i put 100€ on the table for a dynamic campaign (after edge and f-18 :-) )

 

I second this, instantaneously.

Let the community work on jets.

DCS needs more playability. Multiplayer is bland and unrealistic. :helpsmilie:

 

Not complaining. Just giving feedback. Take it however you will. IMO DCS can upgrade its game engine and have a crapload of great flight models, but still only be just as good as Falcon as long as it has no dynamic campaign that can be influenced by human interaction.

Edited January 7, 2014 by riboyster

[Yskonyn]

I don't find the inclusion of a dynamic campaign the be all and end all.

 

A bigger map to fly on is a much more needed improvement if you ask me.

 

But that's not to say I would not like a dynamic campaign! I would! It's the reason I still have my Falcon install on my harddrive. And while I won't say that dynamic campaign is perfect or without problems (it clearly is not), it is indeed fun!

DCS with a dynamic campaign (in a different threatre of ops, mind you!) would be awesome, but again, it's not the sole thing I think cures the 'boredom' in an instant. We need more/other things first IMHO.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Yskonyn

[SNAFU]

I agree with Yskonyn.

 

An all evolving DC ala Falcon is nice, but the strength of DCS lies in the details of the micro-level. I find it more immersive playing just a single pilot doing his job in the middle of the mayhem, than trying to orchestrate stupid AI all over the map with studying logistics.

 

Falcon was great in terms of the feeling that your are in the thick of it and that there is so much happening around you, even if it doesn´t make much sense tactically. But it was to less detail on the micro level of the engagement and that`s where DCS is strong. If you are a fighter pilot, who has to follow strict orders and tight schedule, you don´t see what is happing around over the whole theatre anyway, and fort his DCS is better IMO.

 

But for the Massive Multiplayer Furball (where a lone player in a strange mood is not likely to ruin someone else thoroughly planned mission) a big DC ala Falcon is better agreed, but you can´t have it all. And I would rather see ED focus on their strength and not to stray around in unknown. ;)

[WRAITH]

Time for DCS Seriers SP Theaters with Dynamic Campaigns to Own the Trade Name!

 

Well fella's,

 

DCS WORLD is a good move.....................

 

 

Now add a LIST OF THEATERS OF WAR on a GLOBAL MAP...................

 

Like for EXAMPLE..............

 

 

ISRAEL THEATER

 

 

also .............

 

 

TAIWAN THEATER

 

 

 

BALKANS THEATER

 

 

 

and the list goes one ................ http://tactical.nekromantix.com/f4/falcon-4-pmc-theaters.php

 

Its what we all want inf DCS, kinda like FSX now you have a complete world with HD 1080 photo-realistic terrain.

 

Cheers,

 

:beer:

[Davis0079]

without a bubble system (so we can build full maps) or a persistent save system (so unit and supplies can be moved from one mission to the next), this is a dead thread.

 

with a persistent save system we could build a dynamic campaign like the old IL-2 with the DCG addon by Lowergen (http://www.lowengrin.com/news.php)

 

if we had a bubble system we could build a dynamic campaign like F4 or even arma3 with the Alive addon (http://alivemod.com/)

 

 

 

BUT....a bubble system probably is not going to happen....DCS was made so you could count bullets, not just yours, but every unit is recorded shot by shot....a bubble system would eliminate this and a 2D combat system would have to be created (i recommend the 1d20 system)

 

 

the next idea is a "save system" so we can carry over destroyed units and supply lvls from one map to the next....I think this is the only realistic way for DCS...so trying to compare DCS with Falcon4 is a bad way to think of things....think more IL-2...where you move from one mission to the next....the map reloads....units kills are recorded...blah blah blah

[siipperi]

i put 100€ on the table for a dynamic campaign (after edge and f-18 :-) )

 

Dynamic single and multiplayer campaign would rock, I haven't been bothering with same dull campaigns for last few years. And with a little more optimization I think it could be achieved if ED have time, manpower and interest in doing such thing. I think at the moment they are really busy finishing EDGE, F18, Dora, and helping with DCS WW2. So exiting times ahead.

 

Gimme dynamic campaign and it's all over! :thumbup:

[WRAITH]

Dynamic single and multiplayer campaign would rock, I haven't been bothering with same dull campaigns for last few years. And with a little more optimization I think it could be achieved if ED have time, manpower and interest in doing such thing. I think at the moment they are really busy finishing EDGE, F18, Dora, and helping with DCS WW2. So exiting times ahead.

 

Gimme dynamic campaign and it's all over! :thumbup:

 

912 Replies and Counting "UP" maybe we get or they get, let me see :music_whistling::lol:

 

 

Let the DCS Theater Campaign "Clone WARS" Begin in 2014........................... :megalol:

 

So of course it can all be done! C'mon!

 

"DCS World" .......... was the first step now add more maps and Advanced A.i WARS or better known in Military terms "Theaters of WAR and Campaigns"!

 

Read my post replies up from 899 down............>

Its all about 1010101011101110010 more Programming and Coding to DCS Sim Source Code...........

 

Its what we all want, just hope its in my life time thats all! Need more 3rd Party Developrs to join the ranks like a DCS Theater TEAM!

Edited January 7, 2014 by WRAITH

[Mr_Burns]

I am going to bump this every month, the SIM has almost everything I wanted, but I cant play it too much because of the complete MEH about missions and campaigns.

 

It just doesnt suck me in.

 

The other thing is that, press F9 to call in SEAD or fighter cover or whatever, now Im not a military pilot, but as an A10C pilot in DCS - surely its not my position to worry about whether its time to call in SEAD or send forward the Tanks? Im not the commander.

 

Task me to goto a location on CAS and depending on the outcome of SEAD or the advancing tanks, have a commander tell me to take out a bridge and wait for the ensuing traffic jam before dropping hell.

 

Failing that, identify friendlies being surrounded and let me chose the gun run or precision weapon to use to support them.

 

No, I agree with EDGE but you can get as many shiny accurate modelled birds in the sky but without some AI its just and Aircraft Study Sim, not a Combat Simulator.

 

Still support it though!

[Lobo1606688273]

Nice to see this topic resurface again. I also agree that a multiplayer persistant realtime DC is the main missing feature in DCS, and actually I think that the kickstarter idea suggested on this thread could be a good idea to get things moving.

 

There are many references, for better or worse, to F4s DC in the thread. In my opinion, that DC is the main reason why F4 has survived for 15+ years. However, I do agree with some of the comments about its lack of realism, and I would prefer a system that generates more realistic missions and not a wall of migs and suicide missions.

 

In the meantime, lets hope for a DC in DCS somewhere in the future :)

[GGTharos]

No, it survived that long because some people continued developing it. It was a complete mess at release.

 

In my opinion, that DC is the main reason why F4 has survived for 15+ years.

[WRAITH]

Time for DCS Seriers SP Theaters with Dynamic Campaigns to Own the Trade Name!

 

No, it survived that long because some people continued developing it. It was a complete mess at release.

 

 

LoL.............. So we've crossed the "Paradox" to the "Alternative Reality"......... "Crossing Time Lines" .......... http://youtu.be/5OPkqY9doGE ........ :megalol:

 

This is why WE post here :megalol:

Edited January 8, 2014 by WRAITH

[Jimbolya]

Adding to thread to bump the count up one more notch -

[v2tec]

No, I agree with EDGE but you can get as many shiny accurate modelled birds in the sky but without some AI its just and Aircraft Study Sim, not a Combat Simulator.

 

Yeah, I don't need new planes or helicopters they are just released like in an production line... While spreading is necessary to improve sales volume I am sure you can improve some sales with DC.

 

Not sure, why we need an WWII mode and drift away from modern aircrafts and the focus to improve that.

 

Anyway, it's a great sim.

Edited January 21, 2014 by v2tec

[lunaticfringe]

LoL.............. So we've crossed the "Paradox" to the "Alternative Reality"......... "Crossing Time Lines" .......... http://youtu.be/5OPkqY9doGE ........ :megalol:

 

This is why WE post here :megalol:

 

Actually, GG's statement is correct. The dynamic campaign in Falcon 4.0 v.1 was *impossible* to lose on any of the three modes. This has been discussed elsewhere repeatedly over the last decade and a half; let the AI run its course, and the Allies always win. That's not "dynamic"- that's a giant mission generator with no point.

 

Wing Commander in 1990 had a more "dynamic" campaign. When your "dynamic" campaign is that fundamentally broken, it's nothing of the sort.

Edited January 21, 2014 by lunaticfringe

[Mr_Burns]

Actually, GG's statement is correct. The dynamic campaign in Falcon 4.0 v.1 was *impossible* to lose on any of the three modes. This has been discussed elsewhere repeatedly over the last decade and a half; let the AI run its course, and the Allies always win. That's not "dynamic"- that's a giant mission generator with no point.

 

Wing Commander in 1990 had a more "dynamic" campaign. When your "dynamic" campaign is that fundamentally broken, it's nothing of the sort.

 

No its dynamic and real - the Allies always win.:smartass:

[Mr_Burns]

So how could this work - a module called DCS: Dynamic Campaign.

 

So the way I see DCS - you have the world, you have the aircraft add-ons, land add-ons and future naval add-ons.

 

Where does the AI sit - in DCS World? For example if we have the VAEO Hawk - and you set it as Computer Player on a campaign - how does it know how to fly?

 

Does a Dynamic Campaign need to sit in the World Engine? Could you do an add-on that is dedicated to pulling in the pieces and generating missions and focussed on the AI required for these to be as Dynamic as possible.

 

The dynamics dont necessarily have to be immediate, the majority of calculations would probably be after the mission has ended, whilst those dynamic decision in battle, dont necessarily need to be real-time (unlike combat where the AI lives). So if it took a second for a colum of tanks to think, reroute the bridge has gone, whilst the add on processes the maths to re route the column, launch sappers to rebuild, launch A2A aircraft to protect the tanks, its no big deal, depending on the mission you may have to go and re-arm anyway.

 

Would it be possible (is it possible) on a multicore CPU for an add-on to request a core that isnt being used thereby still allowing all processing power to the plane?

 

Keep this thread alive.

[Irregular programming]

I don't think performance is a problem here, a dynamic campaign would have really simple calculations to handle combat. All it needs to have is simple tabletop rules for engagements outside your vision and when you get within visual distance the AI would take over.

 

Actually, GG's statement is correct. The dynamic campaign in Falcon 4.0 v.1 was *impossible* to lose on any of the three modes. This has been discussed elsewhere repeatedly over the last decade and a half; let the AI run its course, and the Allies always win. That's not "dynamic"- that's a giant mission generator with no point.

 

Wing Commander in 1990 had a more "dynamic" campaign. When your "dynamic" campaign is that fundamentally broken, it's nothing of the sort.

 

A dynamic campaign is neither broken or suddenly becomes a scripted campaign because one side always wins.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Irregular programming

[Kaktus29]

i guess if Dynamic campaign is soo hard to develop at least tools to have people command the war should be put in place and mission to mission information continuity (number of tanks destroyed are detracted from the pool of tanks your side has) and so on and so forth..

 

CA is the right direction.. we need more of that commanding wise play.. so Dynamic campaign can be wholesomely created by the players.. you have one dude playing as "general", another as Major, etc.. and enable each of them to have specific UI where it can order and exact change on the battlefield (communication control, RECON data-pictures come back to his "war room", plans created, distributed,..

 

i think people running the "show" would be much more amusing and interesting albeit chaotic and LOLed most probably but more much more interactive than trying to create AI that makes sense..

 

the biggest problem as i see is exactly the information continuity from mission to mission which is needed for any kind of dynamic campaign.. so far from what i've read this is impossible..so we basically have 2 hour mission and then its over..like 100%.. so this is it, you have to put whole war in those 2 hours.. which of course doesn't make it a good campaign obviously..

 

We already have a mission log, who destroyed what, need the info WHERE on the grid, and voila, we can re-create the next mission with updated information.. and go from there..

 

i think more than Dynamic campaign is impossible we have a problem its a bigger undertaking that ED right now can't take (with other projects like EDGE, F-18,F15,Su-27AFM etc)..

 

so, in the future, i think yes, dynamic campaign is just a must otherwise this game remains a Study Sim and not as somebody noticed a Combat simulator..

[VincentLaw]

so, in the future, i think yes, dynamic campaign is just a must otherwise this game remains a Study Sim and not as somebody [noted] a Combat simulator..

I think this statement misses the trees for the forest. You can simulate combat without simulating a war. A dynamic campaign is essentially the military aspect of an entire war. DCS currently simulates battles (hence The Battle Simulator) which are certainly still combat, although chain of command is lacking in DCS. I would like to see AI commanders implemented before a dynamic campaign is attempted.

[Kaktus29]

@vincent.. creating competent AI? seriously.. i am pretty much sure this is impossible.. unless we see AI robots who can work independently in a factory and answer phones to people i think AI is a pipe dream..

 

bigger companies with huuuge finances have tried to do "smarter" AI and its basically same thing for what now.. 20+ years.. everybody promises better AI.. but seriously.. scientists don't even have a definition of what "intelligence" is.. let alone create an artificial one..

 

so as i said, just create UI so people can "man the stations" ..

 

other than that problem of carrying one mission to another with continuity is also solvable i think by "simplifying" the "victory conditions of each "missions" .. each village would have a value point.. so if your tanks take all of the village in the end of the mission its registered as conquered territory. no need to memorize how much fuel tanks have, and shells, and all the small little things that ppl have said makes dynamic campaign impossible.. just the hardcore facts of who is winning the war/mission and who is not.. number of destroyed tanks, planes,choppers and voila..

 

transfer to another mission.. have 30 minutes to PLAN the mission (this is the part of the Chain command, where players could play mostly from strategic and tactical point of view-watching maps, and from their "home base" redirect the tanks, planes, choppers etc. to new locations with new missions.. and after 30 minutes pass GAME STARTS LIVE... with each side trying to figure out what the battle plan of the other is, and how to defend/attack more sensibly and efficiently.. and create orders of what to attack and relay this to pilots and so on..

 

i think this is all quite possible..as i said biggest problem is manpower and time, ED doesn't seem to have enough for the projects at hand let alone for adding and pilling project after project on them..

 

i think we will not see dynamic campaign not here not anywhere else for that matter and especially "smarter AI" for the next 10 or more years. by that time computers might change so much the whole pc game idea might change with it..who knows what the future will bring.. but to see what we want to see in our pc games (dynamic campaign, smart AI that can follow chain of command and still be sensible) i dont think so..