Getting bored with it.

[Smokin Hole]

Rise of Flight isn't Crysis but it looks fabulous. So does IL2 4.10. DCS:A10 looks fine. Combat sims are obviously on a budget. They are 10 times more complex to develope yet their full-time dev teams consist of maybe 3-5 people. That's compared to dozens for the shooters. You just can't have the same expectations for the two products. The markets are as different as the capitalization. Still I honestly see where Henchman is coming from. And I have never Played any of the titles he's mentioned. I have never even seen them. My reference to Crysis is just a guess. I don't know what it is. But I'd love to fly my su25 or Ka50 in a battlefield like BF2 and do what I do best. This will NEVER happen. The days of the flight sim are therefore nearing their end. Those of us who love them are like the elves of the Middle Earth about to sail east (or was it west). After DCS:A10 and SoW it will likely be over for us and we'll be Goblins and Platoon leaders just like everyone else with a PS3.

[Conure]

Rise of Flight isn't Crysis but it looks fabulous. So does IL2 4.10. DCS:A10 looks fine. Combat sims are obviously on a budget. They are 10 times more complex to develope yet their full-time dev teams consist of maybe 3-5 people. That's compared to dozens for the shooters. You just can't have the same expectations for the two products. The markets are as different as the capitalization. Still I honestly see where Henchman is coming from. And I have never Played any of the titles he's mentioned. I have never even seen them. My reference to Crysis is just a guess. I don't know what it is. But I'd love to fly my su25 or Ka50 in a battlefield like BF2 and do what I do best. This will NEVER happen. The days of the flight sim are therefore nearing their end. Those of us who love them are like the elves of the Middle Earth about to sail east (or was it west). After DCS:A10 and SoW it will likely be over for us and we'll be Goblins and Platoon leaders just like everyone else with a PS3.

 

I disagree - there has been a huge gap of flight sims over the past decade and now we're getting several at once. Even the more arcadey producers are trying it out (HAWX, A:AA, WoP etc)...If anything they seem to have more going for them now.

 

I have played Crisis and I really don't understand the comparison...Apples and oranges have significantly more in common than DCS and Crysis...OP, you cannot complain about the AI in DCS and claim Crysis is better..Have you finished the game? That last boss is the most stupid thing I've ever seen! :D

[Henchman14]

Rise of Flight isn't Crysis but it looks fabulous. So does IL2 4.10. DCS:A10 looks fine. Combat sims are obviously on a budget. They are 10 times more complex to develope yet their full-time dev teams consist of maybe 3-5 people. That's compared to dozens for the shooters. You just can't have the same expectations for the two products. The markets are as different as the capitalization. Still I honestly see where Henchman is coming from. And I have never Played any of the titles he's mentioned. I have never even seen them. My reference to Crysis is just a guess. I don't know what it is. But I'd love to fly my su25 or Ka50 in a battlefield like BF2 and do what I do best. This will NEVER happen. The days of the flight sim are therefore nearing their end. Those of us who love them are like the elves of the Middle Earth about to sail east (or was it west). After DCS:A10 and SoW it will likely be over for us and we'll be Goblins and Platoon leaders just like everyone else with a PS3.

Yeah, I don't understand why people like DCS don't try to join up with FPS's like ARMA, unless they feel the FPS people might try to limit them. This flight simulation put into ARMA 2 would be a dream, and also might spark some players to learn real flight simulation, as where before they probably would never have thought of it. I just don't see how people like DCS survive. Though I really hope they continue to make it. Flight sims are a dying market, just like infantry only FPS, being swallowed up by the new multi-genre FPS sims.

 

@Conure - I wouldn't call HAWX flight simulation. Thats all XBox stuff, which is a genre in itself. Like Crysis 2, which is going to fall on its face in the PC market, because PC only Crysis 1 rips it to shreds. Its just an XBox port. All Arcade stuff. Crysis, like Arma 2, is one of the new attempts at bringing flight, vehicle, and inf FPS all together into one world. Crysis is kind of arcadish, but Arma 2, while not having as good graphics, really did well in the infantry part, with such things as calculated bullet drop, actual mil-dot scopes, bullet drift from wind, realistic rifles, etc. An ongoing mod called A.C.E. 2 continues to add reality to it, mostly in the infantry department. Also, vehicle wise, but I think they don't know much about how to change the flight models, or work with the aircraft ( the worst part of the sim ).

Oh, and I never said the AI in Crysis was good. I was talking about the terrain, detail and TOD. The AI in Crysis is "fair", maybe, but I only ever play MP.

 

"...But I'd love to fly my su25 or Ka50 in a battlefield like BF2 and do what I do best. This will NEVER happen. The days of the flight sim are therefore nearing their end. ...After DCS:A10 and SoW it will likely be over for us and we'll be Goblins and Platoon leaders just like everyone else with a PS3." - Smokin Hole

 

Which is the problem I'm worried about, too. Which is why we need to try to get good flight sims into games like Arma 2 and Crysis, and get others interested. This would also help bring down joystick costs. Or sooner or later, there's going to be none of us left, and the companies will just say great, something we don't have to bother with anymore. More money for us.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Henchman14

[genbrien]

Yeah, I don't understand why people like DCS don't try to join up with FPS's like ARMA, unless they feel the FPS people might try to limit them.

I think you have 0 idea of how a game is made. IT WONT HAPPPEN!!!

Show me 1 example of 2 game compagnie that merged their games to create one.... There is none!

What would be possible is that ED or EA or Activiasion or anyone else made their own engine, wich can do realisitic flying (DCS), realisitc ballisitc and ground combat (Arma) with realisitc environnement(Crysis), wich wont happen for the next decade for 2 things: money and PC limitations

 

I just don't see how people like DCS survive.

Military contracts, and people like us know that we are a niche market are are way less prone to pirate the game as major FPS title

 

are dying just like infantry only FPS, being swallowed up by the new multi-genre FPS sims.

say that to Call of Duty

 

 

This would also help bring down joystick costs.

 

Get a job and learn to save money

[Grimes]

Henchman, most of what you've posted is an over simplification of what flight sims, ARMA, Crysis, and consoles are.

 

For the most part making a flight sim for arma 2 would be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Its not what ARMA2 is designed for. Furthermore the flight in ARMA2 is meant so its player base can easily control the aircraft with mouse and keyboard. Its specifically built as support to infantry/ground operations and is not meant for high level of simulation. I'd love to see the ARMA2 flight model become better, but I don't expect much from them. As its been previously mentioned, the scale of things is kinda an issue....

 

Chernarus is 225 km^2. Meaning its a 15kmx15km block.

DCS on the other hand is quite massive. In Black Shark the shortest distance between 2 airbases is 21km. Make a square area out of it and you have a much larger area, 441 km^2 to be exact, nearly twice the size of Chernarus. And this is just a small portion of the map.

 

Crysis and I assume you mean just CryEngine based games are just really really really good looking at ground level. Not to say a flight game wouldn't work on the CryEngine, but a level of scaling would be needed which currently doesn't exist. That said the CryEngine is probably one of the better game engines out there for rendering large outdoor environments.

[GGTharos]

Because you don't understand the technical implications and difficulties. Legalese and the probable fact that those companies don't care about each other right now, the technical aspect is daunting and likely insurmountable at this point. It will simply not happen. Grimes has given the easily explainable gist of it, but it goes quite a bit farther than that.

 

ARMA2 does not have the terrain for a flight sim, and DCS does not have the terrain for an FPS like ARMA, and this is NOT going to change. Not for lack of desire, but due to practicality and technical limitations, PERIOD. When there is a team of people large enough to create 10000x the size of the map of czernarus with the same detail (that's right ... that is the correct number of zeroes) THEN you will have a map of the SAME size as DCS. Then you need a computer than can actually load it. You can do the math on all this yourself.

 

Yeah, I don't understand why people like DCS don't try to join up with FPS's like ARMA

 

That 'flight sims are dead' myth has been getting busted for about as long as it has existed.

 

Which is the problem I'm worried about, too. Which is why we need to try to get good flight sims into games like Arma 2 and Crysis, and get others interested. This would also help bring down joystick costs. Or sooner or later, there's going to be none of us left, and the companies will just say great, something we don't have to bother with anymore. More money for us.

[Funkyjazz]

Im playing GTA4 and Nico walks around the street. I hijack a car. Get in and then "pfoof" im into Test drive unlimited (2). I cruise to the airport. Over there i get into a 747-400 and "pfoof" i can fly the PMDG 747-400 like in FS9. I land the 747-400 and get out. Nice heads for home "pfoof" i'm in sims 3. I get a job with the army. I head for my work and "pfoof" im in ARMAII totally mixed with the best of SNIPER GW, COD, MOH FC1, FC2, BS and A-10. As i play ARMAII i have the possibility for the RTS mode like in RUSE ect ect ect...

 

There is this famous sentence i will never forget: "I have a dream"

[Smokin Hole]

GG and others,

 

There is a very interesting SimHQ interview with several developers on the future of the genre. Needless to say, it's a tough business that will only get tougher.

 

Maybe reports of imminent death are premature but the loss of a once successful genre isn't unprecedented. Remember Harpoon?

[bogusheadbox]

Lol could you imagine flying the BS in Arma 2. Where every man and his dog carries a stinger.

 

No thanks. Totally unrealistic.

[Conure]

If there was a fully intergrated infantry combat game with realistic air support, can you imagine how boring it would be for the guys on the ground?

 

"Pr0pilot52" has killed "J0hnWayne" with the Gau-8

 

"Pr0pilot52" has killed "R3deption" with the Gau-8

 

"Pr0pilot52" has killed "J0hnWayne" with the Gau-8

 

"Pr0pilot52" has killed "S3phiroth4life" with the Gau-8

 

"Pr0pilot52" has killed "Cod4Life, s3phiroth4life, JohnWayne and R3demption" for a multikill, with the Maverick

 

Sephiroth4life: CAMPING A-10 NOOB, THIS GAME IS BS AND TOTALLY UNBALANCED, WTF YOU CAN SEE ME WHEN I HIDE, SHOOT MY BUILDING DOWN AND I CAN'T EVEN SEE YOU FFS

 

 

Sephiroth4life leaves the server

 

R3deption leaves the server

 

J0hnWayne leaves the server

 

Cod4Life leaves the server

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Seriously though, how many people would actively enjoy the process of playing the game on the ground against CAS aircraft? To make it vaguely fun and so it doesn't take 12 hours, you'd have to make the map smaller, which would make the hunt even easier for said CAS.

 

This results in simply a dumbing down ala the battlefield series..

Edited January 15, 2011 by Conure

[Henchman14]

Hee He, whats the matter Bogus, afraid of a little stinger? That's what you got flares for. Of course, they wouldn't do you any good in Crysis. The manpads are laser guided. No defense, you just run for cover and dodge. And Conure, were actually quit used to that in Crysis. You think the A-10 kills a lot of people? A Crysis VTOL would wipe it out of the sky. The VTOL is the scourge of Crysis. It pretty much kills anything that gets in its way. We've had to get used to it. I'll quote what the game flashed up last night - "Spectre is on a rampage with 20 kills in a row". He was flying a VTOL. Were totally used to it. You actually need to add about 10 more names to the kills of Pr0pilot52. And actually, it makes the game really hard, which makes you even more into it, and more determined to earn enough points to buy a weapon or vehicle that might be able to take it on.

Of course, good Crysis players would have known not to take it on, head on, like these fools did. The server wasn't called NoobHunters for nothing. :megalol:

Edited January 15, 2011 by Henchman14

[Conure]

What the matter Bogus, afraid of a little stinger? That's what you got flares for. And Conure, were actually quit used to that in Crysis. You think the A-10 kills a lot of people? A Crysis VTOL would wipe it out of the sky. The VTOL is the scourge of Crysis. It pretty much kills anything that gets in its way. We've had to get used to it. I'll quote what the game flashed up last night - "Spectre is on a rampage with 20 kills in a row". He was flying a VTOL. Were totally used to it. And actually, it makes the game really hard, which makes you even more into it, and more determined to earn enough points to buy a weapon or vehicle that might be able to take it on.

 

Henchman I try to be as polite as possible because it's a great community, and I'm sorry...But you're speaking absolute ****...I don't think it's possible that you have any understanding of real warfare whether on the ground or in the air.

 

Why are you comparing a VTOL (with no avionics or flight model) from crysis set 30 odd years in the future, in which the human race take on (and defeat) an alien attack from the triangulum galaxy (how did we beat a creature with technology to get that far?!)...to DCS?

 

Yes I'm sure your Crysis VTOL would take down my A10, but if you do that, I'll respawn in my Millenium Falcon and take down your VTOL...She makes .5 past light speed you know..

 

Infantry DO NOT fight aircraft...I spent a long time in the infantry and during training we had a module on "effective assault upon aircraft" and our trainers skipped the module....If you see an aircraft and you're infantry then YOU HIDE! You do not bunny hop out with your missile launcher, make a quick lock and fire....How many choppers have we lost in the Middle East? And even if they had more advanced guidance systems then the aircraft would know long before you got a chance to fire and sufficient counter measures would be in place. Yes you could say that effective anti air might be in place, but 99% of the time infantry operate far in advance of AA support...

 

Infantry have their place, and it has nothing to do with taking down enemy aircraft. If you want infantry and pilot integration, you're going to have to find 18 or so very stupid people to play a platoon of infantry who are happy to sit in a virtual ditch, under heat neutralising camo until the pilot runs out of fuel and goes home.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Conure

[GGTharos]

I'll disagree just a little with Conure ... here is why.

 

Your Crysis n00bs are so bereft of A2A combat knowledge, I'd shoot your VTOL down with an armed crop duster, never mind an A-10 ;)

 

As for your 'MANPADS is laser guided' trifle, in reality we have MLWS+DIRCM to deal with such pesky threats, for those aircraft that equip such a system.

 

Hee He, whats the matter Bogus, afraid of a little stinger? That's what you got flares for. Of course, they wouldn't do you any good in Crysis. The manpads are laser guided. No defense, you just run for cover and dodge. And Conure, were actually quit used to that in Crysis. You think the A-10 kills a lot of people? A Crysis VTOL would wipe it out of the sky. The VTOL is the scourge of Crysis. It pretty much kills anything that gets in its way. We've had to get used to it. I'll quote what the game flashed up last night - "Spectre is on a rampage with 20 kills in a row". He was flying a VTOL. Were totally used to it. You actually need to add about 10 more names to the kills of Pr0pilot52. And actually, it makes the game really hard, which makes you even more into it, and more determined to earn enough points to buy a weapon or vehicle that might be able to take it on.

Of course, good Crysis players would have known not to take it on, head on, like these fools did. The server wasn't called NoobHunters for nothing. :megalol:

[Henchman14]

"Infantry DO NOT fight aircraft". I think that is typical Western thought, and a good reason we would lose against the Russians or Chinese, who are prepared to take on anything. I think a unit of soldiers should be able to take on anything they can. If its slow and low, even an RPG can take out a heli. This is why we lost Vietnam. In Crysis, you don't slow down to take a look at something, unless your absolutely sure the area is clear. And you really never know. This is why I've gotten bored with BS. Its just sit on the edge of the battlefield and fire Vhickers. There's no cover. You can't do pop up attacks, etc. If you want to use you rockets and gun, you have to go full suicide run and then try to roll out the minute you fire. Its just a blank plain. Even the trees aren't real. And besides that, I like fighting against human intelligence. Not really dumb AI.

 

"As for your 'MANPADS is laser guided' trifle, in reality we have MLWS+DIRCM to deal with such pesky threats, for those aircraft that equip such a system."

 

Well, I've yet to see it.

[159th_Viper]

Well, I've yet to see it.

 

DCS A-10C Warthog: It's all there :thumbup:

 

 

 

"n Crysis, you don't slow down to take a look at something, unless your absolutely sure the area is clear. And you really never know. This is why I've gotten bored with BS. Its just sit on the edge of the battlefield and fire Vhickers. There's no cover. You can't do pop up attacks, etc. If you want to use you rockets and gun, you have to go full suicide run and then try to roll out the minute you fire. Its just a blank plain. Even the trees aren't real. And besides that, I like fighting against human intelligence. Not really dumb AI.

 

 

You've been playing too miuch Crysis.

 

The moment you begin an attempt to equate and compare Crysis with RL behaviour and Doctrine is the moment you fail. Anything after that is just not credible. Unfortunate, but fact.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

"Infantry DO NOT fight aircraft". I think that is typical Western thought, and a good reason we would lose against the Russians or Chinese, who are prepared to take on anything. I think a unit of soldiers should be able to take on anything they can. If its slow and low, even an RPG can take out a heli. This is why we lost Vietnam.

 

Rubbish.

 

The Russians/Chinese/Vietcong, were/are prepared to take on anything because if they didn't try they faced the potential of being shot by their own side, and if they tried and failed there were 10 more people to take their place.

 

Either way, infantry if attacked by air are likely to be slaughtered even if their team eventually wins. I don't see any reason why anyone would anyone want to play the sacrificial pawn.

[Conure]

Rubbish.

 

The Russians/Chinese/Vietcong, were/are prepared to take on anything because if they didn't try they faced the potential of being shot by their own side, and if they tried and failed there were 10 more people to take their place.

 

Either way, infantry if attacked by air are likely to be slaughtered even if their team eventually wins. I don't see any reason why anyone would anyone want to play the sacrificial pawn.

 

Whatever your opinion, I can speak for my particular regiment in the British Army with 4 years of service...Maybe that varies in other places however I'm talking about now and from the Army in which I served. I would pity any infantry regiment who were tasked for anti aircraft duty without EXTENSIVE support.

[Henchman14]

Well, I'll leave it at this. In the end, I think your simulation of the Ka-50 is excellent. I just hate what passes for a world.

[Conure]

Well, I'll leave it at this. In the end, I think your simulation of the Ka-50 is excellent. I just hate what passes for a world.

 

You know, when you summarise it like that..I think I agree.

 

Try A-10 anyway, it feels more "alive"...Though I'm not sure why!

[Conure]

Whoa, what're the chances!

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=65705

[Henchman14]

Now thats a good world. I think this is what the Crysis developers have been trying to hide. They've been only showing XBox grade videos of Crysis 2 so far. I hope this is what the PC version is going to be like in all its glory. I think some things weren't as good as CryEngine 2.0, but CryEngine 3.0 is supposed to take a whole lot less power to run. So it will be very interesting to see when it comes out in 3 months (March).

Edited January 15, 2011 by Henchman14

[msalama]

I just hate what passes for a world.

 

A tad more intelligent AI, especially for the ground units, and I'm contented myself :) I do see where you're coming from though, but don't think a joint arms sim / game is achievable just yet either - and in the end, gamers "gaming the game" would most likely make the end result totally unrealistic anyway.

 

But yeah, a better "world" wouldn't hurt, you're right about that.

[nemises]

well, the world / AI in A10c beta is very much improved, with automated defensive posturing (with smoke deployment for some), dynamic re-pathing, as well as AI being able to be set objectives and secondary objectives, + a lot more options in terms of map triggers and "programmed" AI.

 

..fingers crossed this can one day make it into the KA50 world

[bogusheadbox]

..fingers crossed this can one day make it into the KA50 world

 

Fingers crossed the KA-50 can make it into the DCS A-10 world :thumbup:

[Renato71]

Well, this guys that started the topic, he got bored. So what? What are you all trying to sell him? As far as I can see, he is not bored by the helicopter. Environment is the at the core of his problem.

 

well, the world / AI in A10c beta is very much improved, with automated defensive posturing (with smoke deployment for some), dynamic re-pathing, as well as AI being able to be set objectives and secondary objectives, + a lot more options in terms of map triggers and "programmed" AI.

 

Really? did not know that...

Then, ED should sell the core, I'll buy for that alone :D

Maybe like I understood few years back when DCS was announced, youknow, modules for DCS, instead of modules with different DCS versions.

Fixing that will disable a topic like this.