EyePoint-Head Position

[dotChuckles]

I think the camera is a little bit below the height of the canopy bow and angles down. Photographer was probably resting his arms on top of the ejection seat to steady himself to take the long exposure required to get the shot. Certainly judging by the pitch ladder the viewpoint is higher.

 

Also gun camera footage doesn't assist in this case. All it proves is that the HUD is proportionally accurate within itself. Which is not up for debate. ED made a faithful reproduction. The problem is the origin point for viewing the collimation of the HUD seems to be in the wrong place.

 

As I have said elsewhere it seems that a sensible compromise was made in development to allow the HUD plus key instruments to be viewed on one screen. And to do that the HUD origin was moved. This was before the Rift was a thing so was never a problem.

 

The only way this is going to get settled is if someone can produce the ergonomic and sight line diagrams for the cockpit. But certainly comments from pilots and the above photo, which shows much more of the HUD then is visible when you set the eyepoint to the correct position in VR lends weight to the fact that it's wrong.

Edited September 20, 2016 by dotChuckles

[=Panther=]

In researching this issue, I have discovered a rare photo of an actual A-10 HUD. Notice that, yes, the HUD is only partially visible.

 

 

Also, by comparing gun camera footage to the sim, I can confirm that the angular width of the HUD symbology is 100% accurate.

 

Not even remotely close to how one is seated in the aircraft. That view appears to be on top of the ACES II parachute container or at least above the head rest. Eyepoint would be about a foot lower and 6-9 inches forward.

[BManx2000]

The only way this is going to get settled is if someone can produce the ergonomic and sight line diagrams for the cockpit.

 

Very well, time to settle this once and for all. I took orthographic screenshots from model viewer and derived the viewing angles from a neutral eye position:

 

 

 

I also went into DCS and moved the view position to roughly where it is in the diagram. The angles match up almost exactly! Amazing.

 

[BManx2000]

And here's one for the head position at the "zero" point.

[sunshine_db]

Just another idea for you to consider....

I never really noticed this issue until I got a Vive. Then I immediately felt like I had my face mashed against the windshield in the A-10, and looking under my own armpit to adjust the lighting panel and everything was just a pain.

 

So I centered the view so my head was where you describe above, you know, against the headrest, and all is fixed.

I agree, the view is cut off if using a monitor but it's not in the Vive.

If i close my right eye, I cannot see the details on the left of the HUD, if I close my left eye, I cannot see the details on the right.

 

But with both eyes open. I can see everything. Your brain overlaps them and sorts it out for you.

 

I'm going to take a stab and say this is how it works in RL.

 

Eg. In the BF-109, the gunsight is on the right, and the glass is very small, not large enough for you to look threw with both eyes, so you only use one! Your brain figures out the rest.

 

So, maybe redraw your diagrams for two eyes, see what you get?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SCU]

looking under my own armpit to adjust the lighting panel and everything was just a pain.

 

Apart from me agreeing with there being something not right about the DCS A-10C head position, I just literally laughed out loud to the quote above for some reason.

[sunshine_db]

Apart from me agreeing with there being something not right about the DCS A-10C head position, I just literally laughed out loud to the quote above for some reason.

 

 

 

Yeah, well, it's funnier in RL watching someone with VR goggles.

 

Even better when they lean forward to study the engine instruments and smack their own chin on the joystick.

 

Or look over their shoulder while leaning out the cockpit to watch the engine spool, and fall out of their chair.

 

Man, that was a good one. VR is dangerous.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SCU]

Yeah, well, it's funnier in RL watching someone with VR goggles.

 

Even better when they lean forward to study the engine instruments and smack their own chin on the joystick.

 

Or look over their shoulder while leaning out the cockpit to watch the engine spool, and fall out of their chair.

 

Man, that was a good one. VR is dangerous.

 

LOL good stuff. I'll need to get my hand on VR some time, just need a new PC first :P.

[dotChuckles]

Very well, time to settle this once and for all. I took orthographic screenshots from model viewer and derived the viewing angles from a neutral eye position:

 

Doesn't settle anything. Provide the designed eyepoint diagram from the Fairchild Republic plans and the appropriate MILSPEC for the HUD showing what should be visible at designed eyepoint and then we can call it settled.

 

While I appreciate your effort, it doesn't prove anything, there are far too many assumptions in your diagram. It also uses the in game model as a reference, again, we are not sure how accurate that is. You need to reference the real airframe if you want to prove accuracy.

 

The only person that can definitively say is a RL pilot. And given discussions on Reddit and interviews it doesn't match up with what we are seeing. Something is not right.

 

I am prepared to be proved wrong, but I would rather that it was though actual real world experience and documented evidence.

 

As I say I appreciate your effort, but we cannot call this settled yet.

[dotChuckles]

HAlso... The representation we have when not in VR and as default, is that of the whole HUD. Surely this is a faithful representation of what the pilot sees as it was designed to be shown. Since the broad consensus is that the eyepoint is in the wrong position, even by Wags himself in his VR video, then it stands to reason that you should see the whole HUD at the correct position. Or why would ED choose to represent it as such at default and not the truncated HUD that you are proposing?

 

This would then lead us to believe that a compromise was made. As I say... Something is not right here.

[BManx2000]

Actually, I must retract my statement that the DCS HUD is 100% accurate. Although the scaling is correct, it seems that the text and compass in the DCS HUD is 1 degree lower than it should be (based on gun camera footage). Fixing this could make it a bit easier to get the full HUD in view.

[BManx2000]

I made a mod to move up the symbology 1 degree, see here:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=174583

[Windsortheater]

No question default eyepoint feels too far forward. No question when head position moved back to better feeling eye position HUD is not in full view.

 

Question is if it is accurate or intended to have pilot lean in to view full hud? Could be.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZON5gqGHsA

Edited November 22, 2016 by Windsortheater

[Hippo]

Picking up A-10C again and this is bugging me again. Just wondering whether this point was ever definitively clarified?

 

I think I read somewhere that the default head position chosen for the game is the position the RL pilot has to move his head to so that he can see the entire HUD. I think that in RL photos where the A-10 gun is being fired the pilot can often be seen leaning forward. So sitting back the RL pilot cannot see the whole HUD, just as happens in game?

[szymv]

Anecdotal evidence:

I launched an A-10 and switched to Shift+F4 view, then moved a camera to be inside static external-view pilot's head.

 

Looks like that:

 

 

 

 

Back to F1, this what I came up with, trying to match the position above:

 

 

 

 

It's very close to what has been presented here. Also, it's true that on many videos of attacking A-10's, pilots are leaning forward quite much. I think the default position resembles that point of view, more or less (so the whole HUD is visible).

[Hippo]

"moved a camera to be inside static external-view pilot's head"

 

I like it - good thinking, Batman!

 

In the end, I've made adjustments to my default view, and my end result is very similar to yours.

 

I will accept that I don't get a full HUD without moving in a bit closer (I am using TrackIR). On a positive note, however, I can look down at the side consoles and move in for a closer look at the MFDs without putting my back out. I also find looking up into turns much more comfortable.

 

I have made my adjustments based on the following assumptions from looking at RW photos:

 

When the pilot looks straight ahead his eyeline is just over the HUD frame. The ED default view has him looking down 19 degrees. => Changed vAngle to 0, and raised the eyepoint slightly.

 

The eyepoint should be further back from the HUD => moved mine back an amount that seemed "about right" to me, and that works well.

 

vAngle = 0.000000, -- default approx -19

x_trans = 0.152174, -- default 0.360549, fwd-back

y_trans = -0.012575, -- default -0.041328, up-down

 

Hopefully, someday, someone who's been in the real aircraft will let us know what's what.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Hippo