Flight envelope issue when using Full G Effects

[LiquidFuse]

S! all,

 

I write this post to inform you of a discrepancy in the Eagle's envelope during high g turns when playing under full g effects.

 

I'm an Eagle online player who normally plays on Ace settings unless the server uses otherwise. I want to point the following issues that I find troubling:

 

Under Full G Effects, the Eagle can no longer turn and mantain its documented and advertised 350 knot turn that is signature to its high speed fighting style. Except at very high altitudes, the Eagle has to slow down to about 280 - 250 knots at 5.5G's or less in order to fight without a full blackout.

 

In short, the Eagle is being forced into the singlemost situation in which it is most vulnerable: the slow speed fight. At these speeds of 250 - 280 knots, the Flanker makes very short work of the Eagle. This situation, to my eyes, is unfair and unacceptable if the Eagle is to continue to be an overall contender in this sim. :icon_frow

 

I started a thread in Lo-Mac forum about these issues :

 

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/38610606/m/2101082433

 

I hope the developers will take note of this.

 

Please note that I absolutely love the blackout effect in FC 1.1 except for the fact that its blackout threshold is most probably set too low. A small detail, but one that has crippled the Eagle in all High G turning scenario, especially its ability to gunzo.

 

S! all

[Olgerd]

There is no constant threshold. With "Full G" option is on, the current pilot fatigue is accounted. When you pull off G to less than 4.0 you (i.e. your "health model") is "resting". When you are above of this value you are wasting your ability to resist to overload. More you are pulling (more time and/or more G), more you are wasting... Also note that the coefficients we are using, are very optimistic.

[LiquidFuse]

There is no constant threshold. With "Full G" option is on, the current pilot fatigue is accounted. When you pull off G to less than 4.0 you (i.e. your "health model") is "resting". When you are above of this value you are wasting your ability to resist to overload. More you are pulling (more time and/or more G), more you are wasting... Also note that the coefficients we are using, are very optimistic.

 

I appreciate your post and fully understand the criteria which you are describing. However, the issue with the Eagle still stands.

 

As I posted before, the Eagle can no longer achieve a sustained turn at its advertised turning speed of 350 knots, simply because the pilot can no longer tolerate 7 sustained G's.

 

Please note that turning speed implies that the pilot can sustain a turn at the speed in question. This is precisely where the problem lies as the Eagle simply cannot turn and keep turning at 350 KIAS anymore without a full blackout 15 seconds into the fight! :confused:

 

So now we have the Su-27 which has been fine tuned exquisitely to sweetly turn at 200 KIAS (around 450 KM/h) plus an indirect degraded effective turning ability of its rival (F-15C)?!...

 

I'm sure I don't need to explain further for you to see that this creates a HUGE imbalance in aircraft capabilities in your sim when these 2 planes go head to head up close, and unless you consider gunzo a trivial part of air combat, I believe this to be something that should be looked into. :icon_excl

 

If the current coefficients are "realistic" then perhaps ED needs to fix the Eagle to fly in right envelope...and not at ridiculously slow speeds of 280 - 250 knots with the pilot still fairly blacked out and the Flanker shredding the Eagle up all too easily. :mad:

[Olgerd]

So are you asking to change either the F-15 flight model or the pilot fatigue model to make things more balanced? What is criteria?

[GGTharos]

I believe someone elsewhere had quoted a pilot as being able to sustain 5.5-6 g's for a good amount of time with the 80's flight suit, and 7 with the modern.

 

Currently you start to black out after a few seconds of 5.5g.

 

Adjusting the fatigue model in that respect should work, instead of adjusting FM.

 

I believe that basically, the fatigue model seems to simulate average pilot -without- g-suit.

[Pilotasso]

So are you asking to change either the F-15 flight model or the pilot fatigue model to make things more balanced? What is criteria?

 

Its not the F-15, its EVERY plane. He just used to fly F-15 most of the time.

 

With the current blackouts I too cant turn away form missiles because I will blackout and loose controll in seconds.No matter the plane (I fly all).

If more than 1 missile is fired the second and third missile will get me unless I get lucky with countermeasures.

So it apears that the best strategy is to hide behind tall mountains to surprise enemy fighters (online). Wich kinda feels as a downgrade to the tactical plots we used to do in 1.02

 

Olgerd I would like to know how did you compile the information for pilots G-limits. Because I've flown aerobatics in gliders before and for most pilots there 4 G's is only for warmup. I had a G indicator and although my untrained body went to the region of 4-5 G's with tunnel effect (you dont realy see a black tunel just the outside world gets fuzzier closer and closer to your 12) I can tell you that my limiting factor was rather getting sick instead of fatigue. And I have endured very nasty manuevers for prelonged periods (each flight lasted between 30 mins to 1h).

 

The glider pilots I talked to say they can regular reach 7 G's on the best gliders with no probs. I flown only Super blanik's and ASK-21's so far wich dont even have a head support.

Now imagine this with a G-suit. Wouldnt even be a a challenge. You certainly have, like me, HUD videos of manuevers wich show G's around 3-6G's for prelonged times.

I cant imagine have to fly straight in a hostile eviroment just because my virtual body accumulates fattigue from 4G's and takes so long to recover from such a light load WITH a G-suit.

 

 

Most hosts are using the heaviest blackout settings for their servers because they think its the most realistic. And I know if I had more experience IRL I would stand more than it allows. Wich is frustrating, Im being blown out of the sky by weekenders because I cant put to practice text book evasions I took years to perfect. I used to fare very well in 1.02 and now Im barely above mediocre. Wins who has best missiles wich sucks specialy when not all missiles are equaly affected with the effecteviness slider, forcing me to find completely different tactics (wich I have yet to perfect) for Missile/blackout settings in each server I get in.

[SUBS17]

Its true, the g-loading is over done since the tolerance is much higher I think. It sounds funny with zzzspaces sound pack(I wonder where he got those noises from?). A thing to remember is that the tolerance is probably alot better in a modern fighter than the older ones due to the use of side sticks and reclined seats now days.

 

This might help

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10801005&dopt=Abstract

[SUBS17]

lol, google

http://www.vnh.org/FSManual/24/03HumanTolerance.html

http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/repeats/g_forces.htm

remember everyone will be different in their limits

[Yo-Yo]

Please take in account that the new G-load pilot model use not only G-load value but the time derivative as well. If you pull very hard you will have a blackout at lower G's than if you pull the same G more gently.

Futhermore, the new model allows to hold G up to 6 g for longer time (!) than the old one if you achieve this G in a few seconds.

The new model was made according the experience of real fighter pilots after a number of consultations .

[Pilotasso]

Please take in account that the new G-load pilot model use not only G-load value but the time derivative as well. If you pull very hard you will have a blackout at lower G's than if you pull the same G more gently.

Futhermore, the new model allows to hold G up to 6 g for longer time (!) than the old one if you achieve this G in a few seconds.

The new model was made according the experience of real fighter pilots after a number of consultations .

 

Not putting that in question. However my personal experiece sugests the effect you described may be a little over-donne in the game. Constant circular movment is also bad because its predictable, its rarely aplied in combat. The videos I mentioned show mostly sudden G variations.

This video is very clarifying:

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos.php?action=view&id=179

 

You can clearly see how the pilot endures variations from negative G's up to 8G's in seconds in a flight that lasted for several minutes. Most times he flies at 4-5G's but there are rather long tunrs made at 7-8G's sometimes. I dont expect ED to make virtual pilots as tough as this but at least in the same order of magnitude.

Current modeling would stand only for untrained guys like me but not professional AF pilots.

I would also like to hear from people who have a lot more time in actual aircraft than me like, Britgliderpilot.

[Yo-Yo]

2 Pilotasso

I really in doubt if you hold 7g for a time longer than a few seconds flying a glider...

If you know what is the real reason of blackout (blood/oxygen starvation of a brain) it's not a news for you that the brain can bear a few second without getting unconcious.

If you hold G's above a threshold the blood pressure is not able to provide the necessary amount of blood /oxygen and the hypoxia grows up. The G suit helps to move the blood from the lower part of a body increasing this threshold, i.e. helps to feed the brain.

[Yo-Yo]

 

You can clearly see how the pilot endures variations from negative G's up to 8G's in seconds in a flight that lasted for several minutes. Most times he flies at 4-5G's but there are rather long tunrs made at 7-8G's sometimes. I dont expect ED to make virtual pilots as tough as this but at least in the same order of magnitude.

Current modeling would stand only for untrained guys like me but not professional AF pilots.

I would also like to hear from people who have a lot more time in actual aircraft than me like, Britgliderpilot.

 

There's no contradiction. If you noticed the G rising is about 7-8G/s but the time it was held did not exceed 3-4 s. Then he have 15-30 s for rest (hard breathing even at 1.0 G).

 

As F-15 and Su-27 has ability to perform sustained 9 g turns (but Mirage 2000 has not) the close combat ability depends mainly on pilots health and if it's necessary to have sustained turns the fighting drifts to low speed where Su-27 has advantage as it has in real life.

By the way. Some years ago we have a feedback from one of our testers. He is a former F-15 pilot and he mentioned that their combat training 1 vs 1 always reduced to slow turns "a la WW I".

[GGTharos]

Could you guys provide us with some data on the fatigue model then so that we can know how long we can hold a certain g, and how long the pilto needs to 'rest'? :)

 

It would be very useful to have a formila or table.

 

This sort of stuff is really need-to-know information in simulations guys! :)

[Pilotasso]

By the way. Some years ago we have a feedback from one of our testers. He is a former F-15 pilot and he mentioned that their combat training 1 vs 1 always reduced to slow turns "a la WW I".

 

yes I know that. I have a few videos showing dogfights like that. But there are other reasons behind it:

 

1)1VS1 is usualy within visual range, judging from the footage that is released to the public WVR combat is the one being simulated the most.

 

2) No pilots like or can afford to keep the fighter at speeds high enough for extreme G's. If its going to be a knife fight they dont need supersonic speed to launch BVR missiles or dodge themselves while trying to do the same.

 

3)And because its impossible to simulate BVR fights in real life training because there wont be anything fired in the air for the pilot to see, get warning from, and dodge.

 

4)Actual BVR missile duels at war were extremely rare.

 

Despite this, combat doctrine as well as online experience favours that its advantageous to begin the fight at high speeds or else risk being easely caught in the no escape zone of BVR missiles wich, now are the most used weapons on loadout free servers. With Blackouts such as this its then VERY VERY hard to even change direction once fired upon during such engagements. (even more with the reduced warning times we get in 1.1)

Each virtual pilot then needs to log on G's such as seen in the video I showed you.

 

No it wouldnt be a confortable thing to do, but IMHO it could be donne.

 

My final thoughts are the recolection of the times I needed to do these manuvers in 1.1 and the pilot becomes fatigued in seconds. In comparison the the pilot in the video, this one is superhuman!

[GGTharos]

You don't need to pull high G's in BVR.

 

The typical Pole cited in studies for BVR is a 2 to 4 G turn, no more. So I suggest instead of wasting your pilot, you fly the plane instead of trashing your plane around for the slightest reason ;)

 

You can sustain 9G for long enough to do half to three-quarter turn. use that to win the first turn in the merge, nose-to-nose for greater efficency, and gun the sucker down right there. THat's all there is to it. The 15 can and *will* win merges, just make sure you set it up right. After tjhat, his pilot's wasted too, so let him try to do whacky evasive stuff in front of you and black out ... you just put the pipper on him.

[LiquidFuse]

As F-15 and Su-27 has ability to perform sustained 9 g turns (but Mirage 2000 has not) the close combat ability depends mainly on pilots health and if it's necessary to have sustained turns the fighting drifts to low speed where Su-27 has advantage as it has in real life.

 

Hello, and thank you for the reply.

 

Several things I need to clarify here:

 

1 - In FC 1.1, the pilot slips into full blackout not after a sustained 9 or 8 G turn, but a 7 G turn. After reading about all of the modern modifications made to aircraft seating configuration and shape, seating angles, flight suit engineering (Combat Edge) and modern pilot training, I can't possibly concieve that a modern F-15 pilot can ONLY tolerate 5.5 sustained G's in a fight like it does in FC 1.1. After all, the minimum benchmark for USAF pilots to be able to turn with 1980 flight suits is 6 G's. Modern flight suits will allow for at least 1 more G, hence 7 G's.

 

2 - Lo-Mac is set on the "near future", not back in the 1980's. This implicates that new technology is implemented into the aircraft, namely the improvements mentioned in issue #1.

 

3 - You have made EXTENSIVE improvements to the Russian SU-27 and 33 to make it more adapt at turning where its "supposed" to, yet you create a new limitation that cripples the Eagle's ability to fight at higher speeds - the only realm in which it has a chance against the Flanker. Does this not strike you as wierd and unfair?? :confused:

 

4 - Arguments about pilot health in Lo-Mac will be irrelevant AS LONG as a single health profile is used for all planes. Every plane will have the "same" pilot and will have the same tolerance to G load. IRL every plane has a different pilot, hence different capabilities for each. This does not apply to Lo-Mac.

 

By the way. Some years ago we have a feedback from one of our testers. He is a former F-15 pilot and he mentioned that their combat training 1 vs 1 always reduced to slow turns "a la WW I".

 

I fully respect this. I'm sure his data was accurate and invaluable to the fine tuning of the Eagle.

 

However, I can't help but think that the "slowing" part would be due to deliberate slowing by the pilot and not out of limitation. To be able to stay within the same turning radius of a slow target, you WILL need to slow down yourself while you position your pipper for a gun kill. I could be wrong in this of course, but that will have to be confirmed by an F-15C pilot.

 

My last argument on the whole issue is this:

 

Adjust the G load to allow for the Eagle to fight on its advertised and documented speed of 350 KIAS. If this will not be done then at least modify the manual to state a different turning speed, since the F-15 clearly cannot sustain a turn at 350 KIAS in FC1.1 anymore...

 

Right now the Eagle is FORCED to fight the Flanker fight, where it stands no chance at winning...

 

In all honesty, I can't help but feel that this is a set up of the Flanker over the Eagle in terms of overall ALLOWED turning capability in FC 1.1. :icon_frow

[169th_Crusty]

I skimmed through this thread quickly... so, I might have missed it but I haven`t seen any mention about the effectiveness of "straining". When done

properly (which after some training becomes a second nature), it could

alleviate 3-4G. And... every Lockon pilot strains... I heard it on TS :)

[Phil_C6]

Hey men

Check here maybe it could help you:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/pdf/g-loc.pdf

 

Good night @+

[LiquidFuse]

Documentation

 

S! gentlemen.

 

Please read the following:

 

Crew Technology Division, USAF School of Aerospace Medicine, Brooks Air Force Base, Texas 78235-5301.

 

Since 1977, for human centrifuge operations, the USAF School of Aerospace Medicine has used an informal G-tolerance standard for selecting experimental subjects, evaluating medically disqualified aircrew, and ensuring efficacy of high-G training for aircrew. That standard consists of the subject's being able to sustain a rapidly applied +7-Gz load for 15 s, without totally losing peripheral vision or losing consciousness, while wearing a functioning anti-G suit, performing an anti-G straining maneuver, and sitting in a conventionally configured fighter aircraft seal. Inability to tolerate a 7-G, 15-s, rapid-onset G profile in a centrifuge is also the basis of internationally recognized (NATO, ASCC) definitions of low G tolerance. The rationale for choosing the 7-G, 15-s standard is discussed. Experience with use of this standard, and the equivalent standard of 8 G for 15 s when the F-16-configured seat is used, reveals that fewer than 1% of actively flying aircrew are unable to meet the standard. Eventually a formal, more stringent, G-tolerance standard may become a valuable component of the means of selecting and training aircrew for high-performance fighter aircraft.

 

PMID: 3675463 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

Please note that the 7 G test is conducted on a conventional flight seat and IS conducted with a flight suit.

 

The 8 G test uses the F-16's configured seat, which ups the scale of minimum required G tolerance to rapidly applied 8 G's for 15s before the pilot can even pass the test.

 

I will check with a cousin of mine who works F-15C avionics in Arizona (can't remember if its Arizona or Texas) to see if he can give me some light on what USAF pilots are currently being benchmarked in terms of G tolerance.

 

Also, please note that to pass the tests above, the pilot MUST mantain consciousness. They do not pass if they go into G-LOC.

 

For the full clip, go to: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3675463&query_hl=2

 

On the second clip we have a description of 1985 - 86 Fighter Aircrew High G training:

 

High-G training for fighter aircrew.

 

Gillingham KK, Fosdick JP.

 

Crew Technology Division, USAF School of Aerospace Medicine, Brooks Air Force Base, TX 78235-5301.

 

From 8 Jan 85 through 12 Feb 86, 741 USAF fighter aircrew from Tactical Air Command underwent high-G training at the USAF School of Aerospace Medicine, the major objectives of the training being to increase their understanding of G stress and G protection and to raise their G tolerance. The didactics centered on discussion of the G-time tolerance curve and demonstration of an effective anti-G straining maneuver (AGSM). Exposure to G stress on the USAFSAM centrifuge allowed the trainees to determine their G tolerances and to perfect and practice their AGSM. The trainees' mean relaxed and straining G tolerances on the gradual-onset run (GOR) without anti-G suit inflation were 5.2 and 8.3 G, respectively; and 41% of the trainees reached the 9.0-G run limit. All but two of the trainees completed the 8-G, 15-s rapid-onset run (ROR) with anti-G suit inflated; 94% completed the 9-G, 15-s ROR; and 93% were able to tolerate the 9-G, 10-s ROR while looking back over their left shoulder. G-induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC) occurred in 9% of the trainees, most commonly on the GOR, less often on the 9-G RORs. Motion sickness was a significant problem in less than 1% of the trainees. Critiques provided by 382 trainees revealed 73% enthusiastic or positive assessments of the training, as opposed to only 2% negative or hostile responses. We conclude that high-G training is well-tolerated by fighter aircrew and is a highly appropriate method for minimizing the potential for aircraft mishaps due to G-LOC in flight.

 

PMID: 3355460 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

Key points on this clip:

 

1 - Pilots without a flight suit could sustain 5.2 G's sustained while NOT straining and 8.3 G's WHILE straining.

 

2 - With flight suits, pilots were able to sustain 9 G's Rapid-Onset-Runs for 15's with the suit inflated.

 

3 - This clip informs of tesing and training done in the late 80's. I have info that suggests better outcomes from newer TLLS like Combat Edge. That info I can post on a different post, this one is becoming quite long.

 

For the clip go to: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3355460&dopt=Abstract

 

Now my question to ED is this:

 

If this info, and tons other I've come across, all suggest that USAF fighter crews are screened to tolerate the above thresholds before they can even become pilots, why is the Eagle pilot in FC 1.1 going into G-LOC in as little as 5.5 G's???...even though most sources claim USAF pilots can withstand at least 6 G's without straining with newer flight suits?

[LiquidFuse]

Idea

 

To add to my previous post -

 

I think a possible solution would me not to raise the "resting" threshold from 4 G's to a high G setting, but make the pilot tolerate G's longer.

 

Deliberate abuse will cause him to blackout fast, but sustained turns should let the F-15 pilot (USAF Combat Edge equipment and training) pull 6 - 7 g's without G-LOC. 8 G should G-LOC after 15 seconds and 9 should G-LOC at 5 or less seconds.

 

This is my impression of how it should be from all that I'm reading and have read in the past. This will also allow for the Eagle pilot to sustain 350 KIAS like it should.

[Yo-Yo]

To add to my previous post -

 

I think a possible solution would me not to raise the "resting" threshold from 4 G's to a high G setting, but make the pilot tolerate G's longer.

 

Deliberate abuse will cause him to blackout fast, but sustained turns should let the F-15 pilot (USAF Combat Edge equipment and training) pull 6 - 7 g's without G-LOC. 8 G should G-LOC after 15 seconds and 9 should G-LOC at 5 or less seconds.

 

This is my impression of how it should be from all that I'm reading and have read in the past. This will also allow for the Eagle pilot to sustain 350 KIAS like it should.

 

Could you post your record where you hold from the start 6 g +-0.2g for a minute ? And 7 g (from the start) +- 0.2 g.

I think you will be surprized flying these tasks.

[Groove]

You should implement some kind of Atributes for the pilot like in some Roleplay Games.

 

When you create a new char you have 30 Points to spend on severals abilities like:

 

Strength

Health

Gun Aiming

 

So you can put 20 Points into Strength and your pilot can pull constantly 9 G for about 2 Minutes :)

[Cobra360]

No pilot can handle 9G for two minutes. This is a sim here. The only way a pilot can take 9G for 2 minutes or more is if they are using the Eurofighter G-suit or the new one being made for the F/A-22 in which case they can stay a 9G all day if they want to.

 

In the USAF when new pilots are qualifing for a place on the F-15 and F-16 they have to be able to handle 9G for 15 seconds with the G-suit in the 1980s. With the new Combat Edge vest brought out in 1990 it is a bit easier to do but pilots still have to work very hard to maintain it.

 

In FC you should be able to sustain 6G for about 2-3 minutes with no black out G-LOC effects. So A-10 and Su-25 pilots need not worry about G-force anymore.IMO

[Boneski]

12 to 14 sec in a 9g fight is done all the time... if you have built up your G tolerance.

 

After about 14 secs at 9gs you are spent after that... Trust me... it's hard to drag your butt out of the jet after work like that.. 6gs over time can have the same effect... its all about building up your limits in real life

 

The issue here is not ED's G model... which if you ask me is spot on.... it's the users out there that pull the stick to the stops with every single pull... From take off to landing!! you would not last long in a real BMF fight...

 

Guys it's simple... and some one has already stated this... watch how you fly in this game... I bet if stats could be pulled from the game on the users stick movements the folks that think the game's g-model is over done are the ones with one eyebrow and hairy ham fist.

 

In a real jet you pull hard only when you need to pull hard... In most cases in BFM when you are behind a bandit you turn into his turn window... this is the place in the sky where the lead guy just went... its a neutral posit until you can get the advantage in the fight and make the kill.. Also proper use of lift vectors, nose pointing and radial G well help you not waste your time burning up gas... and G tolerance as you make a b-line to GLOC.

 

Most people fly wrong.... that's a fact... that’s what makes online flying so hard... people are doing things that you just would not do in real life due to many constrants...

 

These bad gamers might win the fight... but that does not mean they are flying right..

 

The only Issue I have with any sim is the AI... is the AI limited by this same accounting system as the ownship pilot? If so then all is good and right in the sim world even if the "numbers" are off... if not then the user is forced to fly creatively!

 

 

In the real world of air combat... you can assume things... like I am feeling pain when I put all this G on the jet... I bet he is too... can I out last him in this turn... I hope those extra leg presses I did in the gym this week help me outlast this guy in this turn....

 

As for fight speeds... F-16 V F-15... speeds can get as slow as 90 kts... that's the point in the viper that you have to start resetting stuff... :)

 

SO it's not really the game... it's the player I'm willing to bet! When you get shot down in BFM training.... it's rare that you can blame the jet for getting you killed... same can be said for the sim LOL!!

[knellknell]

My experience about G

With a G suit, i was able to support, in the same time in test flight :

20 seconde to go to 4g, then go to 5g stay 20sec at 5, then 6g 20 secondes at 6, then 7g , 20 secondes at 7 g. At least more than one MINUTE above 5g without a blackout.

The g tolerence depends on pilot healt and most important thing, on with rate the G grows. With a good trainning ( not a "competitors trainning") a pilot can be conscious above 7g without any probleme.

The only probleme is about he fuel. With a fighter, a modern one, to keep 7 g and more constants, you need full AB. So the flight is very short.

I ve made some flight of this kind, in low altitude. The dogfight was between 5 to 7G during most of the time (certainly above 5 minutes) but the total flight time was only 15 minutes from take off to land.