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Posted

I wanted to fly a mission in tough weather...but i did not really appreciate the difficulty a strong wind would produce.

 

40 -50 kts winds makes getting munitions on target extremely difficult.

 

I'm looking for some insight in wind correction techniques. (I know some bombs such as the CBU 105 / GBU 38 have wind correction built in)

 

I talking about rockets & dumb bombs and the like.

 

Are there wind limits in real life where a mission simply would not be run due to the difficulties posed or such munitions would not be used?

 

Apart from flying into or with the wind it seemed pure guess work getting munitions on target.. the piper was miles off the impact point. And flying like this would still mean munitions would fall short or go long.

 

Are there any system the A10c has that can help?.. Rules of thumb one can use?

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Posted

 

 

I was about to write a long post about this. My opinion is that CDU LASTE correction for dumb bomb delivery as mentioned in the above link does not work. I just spent an hour or so testing it with the release version and it makes no difference.

 

I am willing to accept that I am just doing something wrong, but advise anyone to treat this thread with caution.

 

Ready to fall flat on my face,

BiPod.

Posted

I have never tried this but off the top off my head, what about flying as best you can with a head/tail wind into the target, to reduce the amount of lateral correction?

Posted (edited)

Thanks for the link... from reading through it there seems to be some confusion over its purpose and use.

 

I'm also questioning it from a practical point of view. The present mission i'm working with is in a mountainous region, with dynamic weather where the wind speeds & direction vary a lot. The area of your attack is not an area you want to be messing about in taking meteorological samples.

 

Don't get me wrong, the link is helpful, but t is not the answer to all issues relating to getting munitions on target with strong winds.

 

Also does this work for rockets too?

 

* goes back to the manual *

Edited by MadTommy

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Posted

Ok, I have finished checking the manual LASTE wind correction method, and these are my conclusions.

 

- IT DOES NOT WORK!

-Manual Pg 204 explains how to enter data.

-Nowhere in the manual does it say that it is for dropping dumb bombs.

-Nowhere in these forums is it definitively stated by a developer that it is for dropping dumb bombs.

-Even Dynamos final CDU picture shows the set wind to be unchanged (Top right corner; this is unconclusive for several reasons).

-Automatic wind correction works pretty darn good anyway.

-Perhaps it has some value if the automatic system is inoperative.

 

If Dynamo reads this, I would love to hear his views. He admitted upfront that his results may have been just luck, and his work was with the Beta. On the other hand, maybe I am just doing it wrong.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

To answer MadTommy's question:

 

In a 50kt cross wind (at all levels and in open plains) I was able to kill softtops with about 50% success rate at both 10000 feet and 3000 feet. Interestingly, the altitude made no difference to success rate. This was using CCRP in combination with the TGP and Mk-82s. I dropped about 15 bombs in my tests. I did not try CCIP bombing.

 

The hud symbology was a bit weird, and the line up method is different from a low wind attack, but apart from this all went well.

 

I do not beleive that attacking from different wind angles will make any difference, but I have not checked this.

 

You mentioned in your second post that you did it in the mountains. I will recheck my results there.

 

As for the rockets. I can't hit the side of a barn in zero wind anyway:smilewink:

 

BiPod.

Posted

...and now I've done it in the mountains.

 

Again, with 50kts crosswind and CCRP with Mk82s from high altitude I had no problems killing softtops parked on a 45 degree slope amongst high mountains.

 

My CCIP bombing sucked about the same with and without wind, but consent release was very awkward in wind. I don't recommend CCIP in wind, but then again, I don't reccommend it in still weather either;).

 

My conclusion is you should operate in high winds more or less as you would in low winds, and just accept a slightly reduced kill rate.

 

...the piper was miles off the impact point...

 

Well, not for me. If you want to submit a track I would be glad to check it for you:). If you like I will submit mine.

 

Learning more every day,

BiPod.

Posted

 

Are there wind limits in real life where a mission simply would not be run due to the difficulties posed or such munitions would not be used?

 

35 knots IIRC.

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Posted
not for me. If you want to submit a track I would be glad to check it for you:). If you like I will submit mine.

 

Learning more every day,

BiPod.

 

I was actually referring to rocket runs when i quoted that. (even if i did not say so)

 

TBH I think i'm flying in far too extreme conditions... even keeping the piper and fall line on the hud has been near impossible.

 

35 knots IIRC.

 

Thanks, that would explain some of the difficulties, I've been testing in 45-50kts. Storm force!

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Posted
I was actually referring to rocket runs when i quoted that. (even if i did not say so)

 

Hmmm...you seem to be on to something there. Rippling 10 rockets with CCIP and 50kts wind gave a consistant error. The rocket groupings were all upwind of the target regardless of the direction of attack. The computer seems to be overcorrecting.

 

Dropping wind down to 30kts (as per Vipers post) halved the error and brought the target to the edge of the rocket grouping area.

 

Zero wind attacks put the target in the centre of the rocket group.

 

It seems you do have to aim 100* meters or so downwind to hit the target.

 

*My eye estimate may be very wrong here.

 

BiPod.

Posted

BiPod - thanks for looking into this so thoroughly and posting detailed findings. I have looked through everything I have in the A-10C but cannot find much on the LASTE system. Since the acronym does include the words "Targeting Enhancement" it would make sense that the wind setting made through the CDU would be used to help in the ballistic calculations for the targeting system, but I can find nothing in the DCS manual to confirm this either.

 

I do hope somebody from ED will weigh in on this interesting subject soon.

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Posted

Agreed Zenra.

 

Just to be clear, I have no problem with accepting that the LASTE system is there for targeting. That is definitely part of its function. My only quibble was with the suggestion from the linked post that manual data entry was the normal way to use it. The system is automatic and works very well.

 

BiPod.

Posted

Limited accuracy caused by wind is the reason Paveway and other guided bombs exist, if dumb bombs hit the target every time (or even got close to it) then war would be a much cheaper business.

 

If you either need to use dumb weapons on a mission or just want to (they are just better ;)), you either need to get low and close or just accept that getting them anywhere within a couple of hundred feet of the target is to be considered a good job.

 

Drop more bombs in a stick, preferably all of them, and hope that the laws of physics are on your side.

 

 

Posted

^^ that is fair enough and makes sense.

 

What about rockets? They seem to be totally hopeless in wind. Even a relativity mild one.

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Posted

Regarding units of measurement when entering wind altitude levels and speed, if we have chosen Imperial Units of Measurement in the Options, do we need to convert the data provided in the M/E and the mission briefings before entering it into the LASTE?

Posted

Rockets are artillery and generally lack accuracy. Use them on soft area targets like infantry and ripple them. There are cases where you might want to 'snipe' with a rocket, but these are the exception and not the rule.

 

 

After reading about helicopter rocket delivery accuracy, I think the gun is far more accurate.

 

^^ that is fair enough and makes sense.

 

What about rockets? They seem to be totally hopeless in wind. Even a relativity mild one.

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Posted
Regarding units of measurement when entering wind altitude levels and speed, if we have chosen Imperial Units of Measurement in the Options, do we need to convert the data provided in the M/E and the mission briefings before entering it into the LASTE?

 

All I will say to this is that if you enter 10 meters per second in the M/E then it will appear as 20kts (approx.) in the CDU, which is the correct conversion. You use kts in the CDU.

 

BiPod

Posted
All I will say to this is that if you enter 10 meters per second in the M/E then it will appear as 20kts (approx.) in the CDU, which is the correct conversion. You use kts in the CDU.

 

BiPod

 

Thanks BiPod, thank goodness for the Unit Converter module in AppBox Pro. Im gonna have to keep the iPhone handy during missions for just that reason.

Posted

While I do hope that the LASTE takes into account the INS computed winds at your current altitude, if there are layered winds it needs to have them manually entered. You could record the winds during climbout. It will probably will be well in the ballpark unless you plan on missions long enough to require aerial refuelling, or you would (more likely) have them briefed from either a weather flight or a met balloon.

 

That being said, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. Just tried it, and my bombs landed in pretty much the same area regardless of whether I had winds in the LASTE or not - with layered winds.

Posted

So the question is if the Wind Edit part of the LASTE system in the CDU is just a placeholder for future functionality, or if it is just a visual representation of a system?

 

Can we get an answer from anyone at DCS in the know?

Posted
So the question is if the Wind Edit part of the LASTE system in the CDU is just a placeholder for future functionality, or if it is just a visual representation of a system?

 

Can we get an answer from anyone at DCS in the know?

 

I'm curious as well. I spend the time to enter as much wind info as I can into the CDU usually.

CaptKornDog

Posted

When you deliver Dumb Bombs, you need to do an Aimpoint Offset Calculation. I read CNATRA_P-1209_Weapons_T-45C. On page 4-03 the following is stated:

 

D = Aimpoint Offset (ft)

T = Time of fall (sec)

W = Windspeed (kts)

1,7 = Factor to bring kts to ft/sec

 

D = 1,7 x T x W

 

So if you drop a Mk-82 (BDU-33) at 3.000ft release altitude you'll have a weapon time of fall of about 6,5-6,7sec (the corresponding table is also in the document). Now lets say you have wind from 130°/14kts.

 

-> D = 1,7 x 6,5 x 14 = 154,7ft

 

That would mean you have to place your pipper 130°/155ft off the target to get your bombs to where you want them.

 

I've not done excessive testing on this so far, but it sounds somehow reasonable when monitoring how bombs miss when the pipper is placed direct on the target.

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Posted (edited)

JaBo,

 

That is interesting, but it seems as though there must be something missing. Is the document, "CNATRA_P-1209_Weapons_T-45C" available someplace publicly?

 

At the time of release an unpowered bomb has a mass and velocity vector the same as the aircraft, the product of which equates to its momentum. If the only force acting on it is that due to gravity then its flight path will be the classic ballistic parabola. Wind in this case is indeed another force that will affect its path, but unless the drag coefficient of the bomb is very large it will not immediately acquire a velocity component along the wind vector, as the equation you posted suggests. The drag coefficient of the bomb, as well as the relative angle of the wind to the direction of flight at the time of release, must both factor into any calculation of such a correction factor.

 

EDIT: Found the document referenced; will study and post back.

Edited by Zenra

Zenra

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Posted

Ah, I see. The example posted from CNATRA_P-1209_Weapons_T-45C assumes a 15 kt wind exactly perpendicular to the direction of flight, and the aerodynamic factors are accounted for by reading a bomb time of fall from a table specific to the MK 76 MOD 5 / BDU 33 practice bomb. Such tables would be included in the knee board documents and a different table is needed for each bomb type, plus the pilot has to correct for the actual angle off from perpendicular, but the document does a good job of illustrating the principles involved.

 

It will be interesting to see how the principles apply to the different free-fall bombs modeled in DCS A-10C, but then again is this not exactly the type of thing the LASTE system is supposed to relieve the pilot of having to do?

 

The referenced document, “CNATRA_P-1209_Weapons_T-45C”, is a very interesting one and is just one of an impressive series on the Navy Air Training site. I appreciate knowing about it. A link to that site should be added in the sticky manuals and documents thread, I think.

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