Why Steam is NOT the answer

[EtherealN]

Just because Valve and publisher get a bigger share of sales, doesn't mean the Developer gets anything more. My point is that Valve or Steam is loosing credibility, and eventually money, when I can get a game, that needs a Steam account, alot cheaper in my local store.

 

Err, have you seen the market this side of the year 2000?

 

There's basically two types of outfits:

1 - Independent developers. People like ED, Introversion and so on.

2 - Major houses. THAT ARE OWNED BY THEIR PUBLISHER! There is no "who is the publisher and who is the developer" in 95% of those cases.

3 - Inbetweens. Very few of those left. But here's the thing: in most of those cases, the developer is funded through one of two ways:

 

A - Funding + Royalty: in this case, the publisher and developer are separate entities, but the publisher funded the development of the game. Good example: DICE. They used this model to great success (and to my great profit since I was a shareholder until shortly before they were bought by EA) in that they could not make an operating loss. (Capital loss is separate and they did do that related to some acquisitions etc.), The drawback is that since the publisher funded everything, the publisher assumed the fiscal risk of the whole gig, and take the majority of the profit.

 

B - Royalties: in this case, the developer funded everything, and with the finished product in hand strike a deal with a publisher. Note that in this case they are the powerful party - they'll shop around to whoever gives them the best deal in each territory and you'll often find a given game having different publishers in different territories. And, thanks to this invention called "the internet", they can approach Valve as a separate publisher if they so choose and deal with Valve directly. As many many of them have done.

 

But since Valve doesn't do disc publishing, Company X will sell to Norway through two venues:

1 - Through Valve.

2 - Through a publisher.

 

In case 2, the publisher assumes the financial risk of fronting the cash for the printed media, and will always reserve the right to dump any product they decide does not sell well enough (to reduce warehousing costs). Guess where they take the money for the price dump from? ;)

 

Your idea of who is scamming who is completely backwards.

[Buzpilot]

Err, have you seen the market this side of the year 2000?

 

There's basically two types of outfits:

1 - Independent developers. People like ED, Introversion and so on.

2 - Major houses. THAT ARE OWNED BY THEIR PUBLISHER! There is no "who is the publisher and who is the developer" in 95% of those cases.

3 - Inbetweens. Very few of those left. But here's the thing: in most of those cases, the developer is funded through one of two ways:

 

A - Funding + Royalty: in this case, the publisher and developer are separate entities, but the publisher funded the development of the game. Good example: DICE. They used this model to great success (and to my great profit since I was a shareholder until shortly before they were bought by EA) in that they could not make an operating loss. (Capital loss is separate and they did do that related to some acquisitions etc.), The drawback is that since the publisher funded everything, the publisher assumed the fiscal risk of the whole gig, and take the majority of the profit.

 

B - Royalties: in this case, the developer funded everything, and with the finished product in hand strike a deal with a publisher. Note that in this case they are the powerful party - they'll shop around to whoever gives them the best deal in each territory and you'll often find a given game having different publishers in different territories. And, thanks to this invention called "the internet", they can approach Valve as a separate publisher if they so choose and deal with Valve directly. As many many of them have done.

 

But since Valve doesn't do disc publishing, Company X will sell to Norway through two venues:

1 - Through Valve.

2 - Through a publisher.

 

In case 2, the publisher assumes the financial risk of fronting the cash for the printed media, and will always reserve the right to dump any product they decide does not sell well enough (to reduce warehousing costs). Guess where they take the money for the price dump from? ;)

 

Your idea of who is scamming who is completely backwards.

 

I'm talking about the same game here, same publisher, different dealer, one is sold in a local store, and a copy for the same game in Steam.

As you have pointed out, the Publisher with Steam have reduced costs, and therefor earn more each copy, even if retail price would be exactly the same.

But for some greedy reason, the publisher agrees with Steam to charge even more, and Steam starts to loose customers. But the Publisher still get it's copies sold and still earn lots of money. Anyone who knows a little about economics would know how important it is to be competitive, but Steam for some strange reason don't.

And you think people should still buy from Steam?

Exept for the regions with a normal price, they won't be in trouble, but just because 3-4 countries in a region can afford it, doesn't make it right for the rest?

[Steel Jaw]

I do not have viruses or trojans on my system.

 

I confused: weren't you running steam? :pilotfly:

[EtherealN]

I'm talking about the same game here, same publisher, different dealer, one is sold in a local store, and a copy for the same game in Steam.

 

Who was the local publishers and distributors for norway?

No, they're not always the same. Indeed, for the nordic countries, in 80% of cases they aren't the same.

 

As you have pointed out, the Publisher with Steam have reduced costs, and therefor earn more each copy, even if retail price would be exactly the same.

 

As I pointed out, and you said was false. Change of heart? Moving goalposts?

As for why they earn more... That's easy isn't it? Because people are like you and don't give a crap about who makes what money - all they care about is their own wallet. So ensuring the same earning on a print copy as on a DD copy is impossible, precisely because people think like you. Congratulate yourself. You are part of the reason why there's almost no independent game developers left. You rock.

 

But for some greedy reason, the publisher agrees with Steam to charge even more, and Steam starts to loose customers.

 

Steam starts to lose customers?

Strangely enough, Steam is making record profits, because for some reason people like their service. You don't, and you don't consider the service worth the premium. I get that. It's all fair enough. But facts are the following:

 

1 - People overall love it, and don't mind paying for it.

2 - If you don't, fair enough, shop somewhere else.

3 - I'm still trying to figure out where the scam is. Is there a scam going on, or are you just trying to backpedal from your previous statements such that no-one will notice your previous inflammatory language?

 

But the Publisher still get it's copies sold and still earn lots of money.

 

Do you have any idea how much it costs to print and warehouse hardcopy of computer games?

 

Fun fact: before digital distribution started happening, roughly 90% of games failed to break even. Note: failed to break even. That is: they made a loss. When I worked for PC Gamer and was out on press meets with developers and publishers I was frequently shocked when I checked out how their previous games had sold - games that were awesome! But a HUGE portion of revenue got eaten up by government taxes and duties, printing costs, transport costs, marketing costs, warehousing costs and so on. There was just no money left - precisely because people liked "hardcopy".

 

Anyone who knows a little about economics would know how important it is to be competitive, but Steam for some strange reason don't.

 

Anyone who "knows a little about economics" knows that there's more to "be[ing] competitive" than pricetags. Steam is extremely competitive, and the dividends given to Valve shareholders as well as shareholders of companies that publish on steam state this clearly, and furthermore the explosion of the "indie scene" that was created almost singlehandedly by Steam adds another chorus to this.

 

Steam is extremely competitive. Obviously they don't compete for your specific market segment, but who cares? Again, does the fact that they don't compete for your part of the market make them a scam?

 

And you think people should still buy from Steam?

 

If they value the service, yes. They should. I love Steam as a content delivery service. It's convenient, they have great deals (90% of my purchases are discounts), and I don't have to worry about stupid DVD's littering the place. And I know a majority of the money goes to the people who made the game, not to the government and 5 billion middlemen.

 

Exept for the regions with a normal price, they won't be in trouble, but just because 3-4 countries in a region can afford it, doesn't make it right for the rest?

 

...and they have the option not to buy. Why is this so rediculously difficult for you to comprehend? But the Valve earning statements and dividends say quite clearly that people do buy.

 

Again, I'm still wondering how it was a scam? Right now all you're saying is that you don't like the price. (Which, quite frankly, is hilarious given that you live in the most expensive country on the planet.) Well so what? I don't like the price of an X70, so I didn't buy one. Some people don't like the pricetag of a TM Warthog, so they don't buy one.

 

...but when the pricetag doesn't fit you, it's a scam? Or did you silently try to back off from the scam thing?

Edited June 20, 2011 by EtherealN

[Revvin]

The view from the other side of Steam: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/304378/how-valve-shook-up-the-pc-market-1c-on-steams-true-value/

 

Its an interesting article

[Buzpilot]

...but when the pricetag doesn't fit you, it's a scam? Or did you silently try to back off from the scam thing?

Maybe you take it too litterally, I started with 'Only problem I have with Steam THE BIG SCARY EURO SCAM :) (ok admit I added a couple words here ;))

And charging 50 Euro, same as 71.5$, (today) and the rest of the world pay 50$ or 30£, that sure seem like a scam to me.

It's not my problem you have problem with space to put your DVD's.

To me it's very convenient, if I deleted a game in my SSD, and want to play it again, I just install it from my DVD, and I still get upgrades/ patches from Steam.No need to wait hours downloading it again.

...but when the pricetag doesn't fit you, it's a scam? Or did you silently try to back off from the scam thing?

I admit it's not my economy that bothers me, it's more principally how I feel about it.

...and they have the option not to buy.

Why, they can buy the game more affordable in a local shop, totally legal. Some may force them to open a steam account to play them, but don't actually need to pay Steam.

 

Before I learned about this I asumed that a product in steam was priced like most international internet shops do, some even give me a choice to select currency i would like to pay with. And it always came out right on calculator.

So it's more like i asume many people like me trust/ed Steam to have a normal business model, not aggressive like it's now . And I asume when more europeans learn about this, they will feel the same.

...but when the pricetag doesn't fit you, it's a scam? Or did you silently try to back off from the scam thing?

I know this is perfectly legal, it's not like I think something criminal is going on, so no worries:smilewink: On the other hand, If I said it something was a steal, would you demand why I came to that conclusion too?

(Which, quite frankly, is hilarious given that you live in the most expensive country on the planet.) Well so what? I don't like the price of an X70, so I didn't buy one. Some people don't like the pricetag of a TM Warthog, so they don't buy one.

So you asume that everybody in a expensive country have a lot more to spend, yeah, maybe if I moved away, and still get my paycheck:megalol:

And you still think I should not buy something, just because i don't like the Steam price? I probably wrote it at least twice before, I get the overpriced Steam game from my local shop 30-40% cheaper, or a different internet shop, if it's even cheaper.:doh:

[Sel94]

With all of the great deals, sometimes I feel like I'm scamming Steam! I like Steam.

[cichlidfan]

With all of the great deals, sometimes I feel like I'm scamming Steam! I like Steam.

 

I am not at all familiar with prices elsewhere but in my experience, unless I find a special sale, for new or current titles steam is selling at market price here in the US. I will admit that I can often get a better deal on Amazon, by a little, but not at the brick and mortar vendors in my area.

 

I too like the deals you can get if you wait for them. My, only occasionally broken rule, is to always buy on sale from Steam.;)

[EtherealN]

Maybe you take it too litterally, I started with 'Only problem I have with Steam THE BIG SCARY EURO SCAM :) (ok admit I added a couple words here ;))

 

"Scam" is a powerful word. When you say something is a scam, you are explicitly stating that it's a criminal enterprise.

 

If that's not what you mean, please take a moment to think before you speak.

 

And charging 50 Euro, same as 71.5$, (today) and the rest of the world pay 50$ or 30£, that sure seem like a scam to me.

 

Haven't we been talking about this all thread?

Are you even reading?

I don't care if you think it's expensive compared to whatever alternative. That's not a "scam". If you think it is, re-do english.

 

It's not my problem you have problem with space to put your DVD's.

 

Not my problem that you, living in the highest-income country of the world (counting median income workers), have an issue paying the same price as consumers in countries that have a much lower income than you. Poor you. Your life must suck.

 

To me it's very convenient

 

Yup, scam right there.

 

if I deleted a game in my SSD, and want to play it again, I just install it from my DVD, and I still get upgrades/ patches from Steam.No need to wait hours downloading it again.

 

Yeah, storage space is sooooo expensive. It's... let me check komplett.no...

0.30 NOK per gigabyte... Yes, you will positively go bankrupt if you ever dream of backuping your game through Steam's backup features... :(

 

I admit it's not my economy that bothers me, it's more principally how I feel about it.

 

How you "feel about it".

Okey, so you "feel" it's a "scam"?

You realize that saying something is a scam is an accusation of criminal conduct? If you "feel" it's a scam, pull Valve to court. You could. It's a scam, right?

 

Why, they can buy the game more affordable in a local shop, totally legal. Some may force them to open a steam account to play them, but don't actually need to pay Steam.

 

Are you somehow not even thinking about what you are saying?

So okey, we have the following facts:

 

1 - Some games are sold on Steam.

2 - Sometimes, you can get them cheaper elsewhere.

3 - Sometimes, the games you got cheaper are Steamworks games, meaning you need Steam. YOU COULD STILL GET THEM CHEAPER ELSEWHERE. (Wait, wasn't they a scam? Hmm... Why would they allow that?)

 

The simple fact is that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

The simple fact is that you don't have a clue how this business works.

The simple fact is that you don't have a clue how economics works.

The simple fact is that you didn't even take the time to try applying your own rational to all the other things you accept as part of your daily life.

 

And the fact is that you still felt it was okey to accuse a party of criminal conduct. And I am still asking: are Steam guilty of being a scam? Are they criminals?

 

Before I learned about this I asumed that a product in steam was priced like most international internet shops do, some even give me a choice to select currency i would like to pay with. And it always came out right on calculator.

 

So you made an assumption based on something that was wrong, and for this reason they're scammers?

 

Tell you what, newegg are rotten bastards for not letting me buy from them. My computer would have been half-price if only they'd have delivered to Sweden and let me pay in dollars. But they didn't. Bloody criminals!

 

So it's more like i asume many people like me trust/ed Steam to have a normal business model, not aggressive like it's now . And I asume when more europeans learn about this, they will feel the same.

 

They have a normal business model. It's just you and "people like you" that don't understand the business.

 

I know this is perfectly legal

 

Oh, so it's NOT a scam?

Why did you say it's criminal if you say you know it's perfectly legal? Saying something is a scam is a direct implication of it being criminal. Check out "scam" in law. You'll find it has a certain meaning...

 

So you asume that everybody in a expensive country have a lot more to spend

 

No I don't. I live in an "expensive" country (by international standards). Year before last I was in a bind, and my total income through the year was 30 000 SEK before taxes. (26000 NOK) I didn't bitch about Steam prices, or anyone else's prices. I just made the call that I can't afford, I won't buy, and that's it. Why is this so bloody difficult for you to understand?

 

I probably wrote it at least twice before, I get the overpriced Steam game from my local shop 30-40% cheaper, or a different internet shop, if it's even cheaper.:doh:

 

Facts as observed by you:

 

1 - Game requires Steam.

2 - Game is expensive on Steam.

3 - Game can be purchased elsewhere cheaper-

4 - Steam is a scam...

 

I mean, that's literally just silly. How can they be a "scam" if they allow you to use their service even if you purchase the product somewhere else, at a lower price? The cognitive dissonance is so radical it registers as a magnitude 8... :P

Edited June 21, 2011 by EtherealN

[Buzpilot]

1 - Game requires Steam.

2 - Game is expensive on Steam.

3 - Game can be purchased elsewhere cheaper-

4 - Steam is a scam...

 

1 - Game requires Steam. Yup, sad but a fact:music_whistling:

 

2 - Game is expensive on Steam. For europeans only exept UK and Russia, stay away from Steam shop!:cry:

 

3 - Game can be purchased elsewhere cheaper- Thank God for that!

 

4 - Steam is a scam... For europeans, exept UK that is:mad: Edit, and Russians, almost forgot you guys, sorry.:)

Edit; Was in London last weekend, and logged into my Steam account, and it seem to me UK also pay in Euro, or do Steam keep it on old currency? (not original, was in dollars a few years ago)

 

Another Edit;

But since Valve doesn't do disc publishing, Company X will sell to Norway through two venues:

1 - Through Valve.

2 - Through a publisher.

Isn't Steam owned by Valve?

Edited July 27, 2011 by Buzpilot

[Jinja]

With all of the great deals, sometimes I feel like I'm scamming Steam! I like Steam.

 

Every Christmas, and usually in the middle of Summer, there are MASSIVE fire-sales on Steam. I stock-pile games then and that's me for the next 6 months. I last bought at Christmas, picking up Mafia 2, Batman, Overlord 1 and 2 and some others for -75%.

 

By Christmas again I'll be ready to pick up Fallout 4 and MW:2 and whatever else... and that'll be me for 2012 (and DCS:fast jet of course!) :)

 

I love Steam. Life's got lot's more to worry about.

[galagamo]

I've had no problems with steam, except its holding my copy of IL2COD hostage:mad: Its a scam I tells ya. For that, FU Steam! There I feel much better now:P

[159th_Falcon]

(and DCS:fast jet of course!) :)

 

I love Steam. Life's got lot's more to worry about.

Doubt if it will be released by then, sure hope so though.

[EtherealN]

1 - Game requires Steam. Yup, sad but a fact:music_whistling:

 

2 - Game is expensive on Steam. For europeans only exept UK and Russia, stay away from Steam shop!:cry:

 

3 - Game can be purchased elsewhere cheaper- Thank God for that!

 

4 - Steam is a scam... For europeans, exept UK that is:mad: Edit, and Russians, almost forgot you guys, sorry.:)

 

I should just give up. You don't get it, and you don't want to get it. You've decided that Steam is the devil and it makes you feel too good to be allowed to cry over their massive injustices (like the fact that they don't care if you shop somewhere else)...

If they wanted to scam, they would get developers to require Steam for the game (through using Steamworks as DRM), and then prohibit sales outside of Steam.

Somehow that is [i]not[/i] what they are doing. They have the bargaining position to bully small independents like Introversion etcetera into exclusivity deals - yet they don't!

 

All they do is they sell, and they have a price for that that is decided upon by Valve and the publisher. It isn't Valve that's deciding the price of a given game, it's Valve and Publisher together that make a decision. If you don't like said price and know someplace cheaper - shop along over there. If gasoline is expensive at Statoil, feel free to fill up your car at Shell instead. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

 

You just don't know what a Scam is. You don't understand that saying something is a scam has a very explicit and precise meaning. All you want to do, I suspect, is cry a bit about someone having a pricetag you don't like. Well boohoo - shop somewhere else then. :P

 

Do not make the mistake that people are criminals just because they sell at a price you don't like. That's what you are doing, and I have been trying to get you to understand that or at least defend your position.

 

Another Edit;

Isn't Steam owned by Valve?

 

Yes. I haven't said it's owned by anyone else. Re-read a couple times and you might see what I've been trying to get across for the last couple pages. :P

Edited June 21, 2011 by EtherealN

[Succellus]

@tusler: Do you play any SEGA titles (like Total War)? Got a Mail that their servers have been hacked, and people should change login data on all sites where they use the same login name and password...

 

Strange i have All TTW and haven treceived any e-mail....

Gonna change things anyway.

[Buzpilot]

I should just give up. You don't get it, and you don't want to get it. You've decided that Steam is the devil and it makes you feel too good to be allowed to cry over their massive injustices (like the fact that they don't care if you shop somewhere else)...

 

To make it clear to you, if it's possible, I don't like the price because it has double standard, two different prices is not normal for exactly same product.

Would be like buying Gold in USA, and then sell it to Europe, and earning lots of money this way, but as we all know this is not normal.:megalol:

And why i doubt you get this, you use the expences for package a reason to why Steam has to keep higher price, still puzzles me.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Buzpilot

[leafer]

So Steam weren't hacked then? :D

[EtherealN]

To make it clear to you, if it's possible, I don't like the price because it has double standard, two different prices is not normal for exactly same product.

 

One thing you aren't getting: you aren't purchasing a "product". You are purchasing a service. The service is the use of a product.

 

Compare to purchasing the use of a lawnmower rather than purchasing a lawnmower. You'll find that the price differs between territories, because costs differ between territories. Your bigger mistake is that you think of "price" as solely a number, but the fact of the matter is that at the end of the day the money you spend is a medium of value, but whenever you cross territories, and possibly even cross monetary standards, things change.

 

This isn't just limited to international trade. You are norwegian, so let me ask you this:

 

Isn't it terribly fraudulent that a 3-bedroom house costs 10 times as much in the suburbs of Oslo as they do at my place? IT'S THE SAME THING!!!

 

...or is it? No. The entire context has changed. Thus comparisons do not apply in such a simplistic manner as just countin artificial numbers on a digital bank account stored at some artificially constructed institution's data center.

 

Would be like buying Gold in USA, and then sell it to Europe, and earning lots of money this way, but as we all know this is not normal.:megalol:

 

Actually, it IS normal.

 

How do you think gold gets transported from the mines to wherever it ends up? Oh yup, people make money - a LOT of money - transporting it*. Funny that... ;)

 

Of course, if you don't want to give the transporting agency money for the transport, you are free to purchase at point of origin. Same applies to Steam - go to US, connect to your hotel internet, purchase games on steam at dollar rate. DONE!

 

And why i doubt you get this, you use the expences for package a reason to why Steam has to keep higher price, still puzzles me.

 

There's not one reason why they have to keep a higher price. There's a multitude of reasons, and to go through them all is equivalnt to a bachelor in economics - or in my case (since I didn't go that route) some experience in handling multinational service contracts. Every day experience does not apply, and one of the reasons is that whenever you see the dollar->euro conversion rate you think of it as the "value" of the currencies, so X euro is Y dollars. While this is true in a limited sense, it doesn't discuss the reasons for the exchange rate, and the reasons for them is primarily linked to the geographic locations the currencies are linked to and the geo-economical situation vis a vis the two regions.

 

Simple illustration: 50 SEK is a hamburger with fries and a coke. In sweden. In norway, the exchange rate gives me 40 NOK (roughly). Does this give me the same thing in Norway? Hell no... There's a reason why I charge 6 times as much sustenance (not sure of the english word, it's "traktament" in swedish) when I'm in on contract in Norway than when I'm on contract at home.

 

The fact is that even when talking about the same country, and the same currency, prices still vary greatly. Look at your country's housing market for an example of that. Or in the case of my own country, I could compare housing or daily-goods where I am and in Stockholm.

 

Nominal prices for the same thing varies depending on your location. Fact.

 

*Incidentally, you can find this difference very easily through the commodities market. Compare purchasing gold-backed securities or futures with purchasing physical gold.

Edited July 31, 2011 by EtherealN

[EtherealN]

Another example:

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115070

http://www.komplett.no/k/ki.aspx?sku=619272

 

So... 315 dollars and 2450 NOK. What is 2450 NOK in US dollars? 455 dollars.

 

OMG! :P

 

Simple fact: you live in an expensive country. If you don't like it, move to a cheaper country. You'll get less pay in nominal money, but at least you'll pay less for your goods and services.... ....