Tactics for avoiding SA-10?

[Wichid]

I thought the launch warning came from the MWS which uses IR to detect the plume.

[lubey]

You can generally see the plume just by looking out the window. You just see this giant white vertical line and it instantly makes you think "oh sh**". But I don't think the MWS alerts you when this happens in the sim (too far away perhaps?).

 

Then when the missile gets close you get an "M" on the RWR, but I think this is from the active radar homing of the missile, not its plume.

[GGTharos]

Well the range depends a lot on speed and launch altitude (obviously), but flying high against an SA-10 is pretty much a death wish.

 

You can launch against it at or just beyond its max range with PrePlanned mode, and you can do even better if there's a dedicated EW aircraft supporting you.

 

My understanding though is that they do generally have more range then a HARM without using jamming and terrain masking.

Not really.

 

The really fun part about the SA-10 that hasn't been mentioned yet is you don't even get a launch warning.

Possibly, but largely irrelevant.

 

Since it uses Track Via Missile (like the Patriot) there isn't any obvious way for the RWR to distinguish a lock from a launch so you don't even see it coming.

Incorrect in your assumption that there's any way to distinguish between the two in other systems. It could easily go either way, and, really, for an SA-10 lock=launch pretty much, and same goes for just about every other system out there. Edited September 27, 2011 by GGTharos

[Oceansize]

If you are having problems finishing the mission, don't forget to call the SEAD cover. They are available under "F.10 Others" radio menu option.

 

Hmmm...I thought I had done this, but come to think of it, I may have just been trying to call AWACS on F7 and never tried F10. But yeah I've solved my SA-10 problem by terrain masking, however now my problem with that mission is the air cover nailing me every time. I'll have to try F10 next time.

[Fleshpiston]

But yeah I've solved my SA-10 problem by terrain masking, however now my problem with that mission is the air cover nailing me every time. I'll have to try F10 next time.

Rock and a hard place.

 

What mission are you on or is this one you have created?

[RodBorza]

Hmmm...I thought I had done this, but come to think of it, I may have just been trying to call AWACS on F7 and never tried F10. But yeah I've solved my SA-10 problem by terrain masking, however now my problem with that mission is the air cover nailing me every time. I'll have to try F10 next time.

 

Support flights can be a big help if you use them right (AND if the AI does the job right). A tip for using air cover is to pay attention to the AWACS calls. Once the bogeys are at 40 nm call the air cover. They'll come in following your waypoints (they will call out "passing waypoint XX"). And 40 nm gives the escort flights enough time to detect and engage the enemy fighters. Again, keep an ear out for the guard channel and escort flights calls. I hope you get a lot of "splash one" on your earphones. :D

[WildBillKelsoe]

6 foot under is right, but you don't have to be dead :)

 

There is no SAM built that can go through earth. So, you *must* use terrain to sneak past an SA-10. If the missile battery is on flat terrain, or ship mounted, then you're buggered. If there are ridges or mountains nearby then the SAM becomes far lethal.

 

If the SAM has terrain nearby you can use that to hide you. Look for valleys or folds in the ground where you will have some distance AGL but the line of sight from the missile puts you 'below ground'. Eg. if you fly in a valley you can be quite high from the valley floor but well below the ridgeline. Much of Georgia is mountainous so this can be very effective.

 

For example, in real life there is a SA-10 in Abkhazia (the Russians publically annouced it in 2008, although it had been installed for some time [with questionable international legality]). Just about everywhere in Abkhazia is close to mountains so you can easily sneak past the missile battery provided you are at low (below 2000 feet) altitude. Note I said 'sneak past'. Without anti-radiation missiles it is a much harder task to destroy an SA-10 site (although not impossible in the DCS game where you get to try more than once).

 

I guess the shark beats the A-10 in this point.. At least with the ABRIS...

[J. Heller]

The SA-10 is indeed a very deadly threat, terrain masking is the only way to deal with it. The missiles range isnt so much a problem as is its stealthy engagement pattern. One small blip on the RWR and the missile is on its way, then nothing until about 10 seconds to impact and you will see another blip. At that point you are probably going to be dead very soon from a collision with an explosive tipped telephone pole. The SA-10 uses a unique guidance system that relies on its onboard active radar only twice in its engagement sequence. Once on launch and once on terminal target aquisition. Everything in between is passive guidance provided by local search radars so, perhaps,(if this is even modeled in the sim)destroying any local search radar will limit the "stealth" ability of the SA-10 by forcing its onboard guidance to go full active to track your plane. Also I believe the on-board guidance system of the missile has a very limited range, thus makig the local search radars even more important. I could be wron about this though. Even though you may be able to make the missile easier to detect and track it is still just best to avoid the thing all together in such a slow and Wild Weasel unfriendly plane like the A-10. No commander in his right mind would send A-10s into an area known to have any SA-10 threat anyways, prior SEAD strikes would have to be carried out to eliminate them.

 

We will find out how to really handle these things when DCS:Hornet gets here, although my experience with them in Falcon should help some. Stay low, real low and then pop up and send a maverick or HARM into the launcher. The real issue is that SA-10's can be placed so far behind enemy lines and still be effective over the FLOT, getting to them is half the fun sometimes. For those who fly the A-10, just stay away from them, period.:thumbup:

[EtherealN]

Minor note regarding SEAD strikes: they would not necessarily have to "eliminate" the site, or indeed even kill anything. "Suppression of Enemy Air Defences" as opposed to "Destruction of Enemy Air Defences". Now, of course, killing it is of course the most effective way to suppress the enemy air defence network, but it's not required; IRL it might be good enough to have enough strike assets up there to make sure enemy radars do not have the liberty of operating at all - since turning them on would immediately cause ARM's to be launched. (And with modern ARM's turning the radar off again might not be enough, since the missile can "remember" where it saw the radar emitter and keep flying to that point, which is nasty for static sites and sites that take a while to redeploy.)

 

Not fully applicable to DCS though.

 

In FC2 you do have some nice ARM's you can use with the 25T, and I used to enjoy doing that a lot; get high (8k meters or more), approach the target - and don't get tempted to launch the second you have LA on the longer-ranged missiles - let the enemy site launch on you, then salvo the shorter-ranged ones, wait two-three seconds, then launch the two long-range ones. Then split-S and run for it.

 

Idea being that the first launches are on you; not your weapons, and at those ranges you can defeat them through leaving. After that, the site will engage the missiles, but since you launched the shorter-ranged ones first those will still be closest to the site and take the next salvo, leaving the high-energy long-range ARM's to finish the site off as it reloads. :D

 

A bit gamey, and definitely exploiting problems with the AI, but lots of fun. :D

[GGTharos]

SA-10's don't have active radar guidance, and their radar sets are actually quite powerful. Nor is the guidance system particularly unique - the Patriot uses the same sort of system.

 

And yes, you will see it on the RWR all the way in while it's guiding, unless you have a particularly old RWR. You might not get a launch warning like you do in a game, but that's pretty much the deal for a whole lot of modern systems in reality.

 

As for 'local search radars', this has to do with IADS rather than the SA-10 itself.

 

The SA-10 is indeed a very deadly threat, terrain masking is the only way to deal with it. The missiles range isnt so much a problem as is its stealthy engagement pattern. One small blip on the RWR and the missile is on its way, then nothing until about 10 seconds to impact and you will see another blip. At that point you are probably going to be dead very soon from a collision with an explosive tipped telephone pole. The SA-10 uses a unique guidance system that relies on its onboard active radar only twice in its engagement sequence. Once on launch and once on terminal target aquisition. Everything in between is passive guidance provided by local search radars so, perhaps,(if this is even modeled in the sim)destroying any local search radar will limit the "stealth" ability of the SA-10 by forcing its onboard guidance to go full active to track your plane. Also I believe the on-board guidance system of the missile has a very limited range, thus makig the local search radars even more important. I could be wron about this though. Even though you may be able to make the missile easier to detect and track it is still just best to avoid the thing all together in such a slow and Wild Weasel unfriendly plane like the A-10. No commander in his right mind would send A-10s into an area known to have any SA-10 threat anyways, prior SEAD strikes would have to be carried out to eliminate them.

 

We will find out how to really handle these things when DCS:Hornet gets here, although my experience with them in Falcon should help some. Stay low, real low and then pop up and send a maverick or HARM into the launcher. The real issue is that SA-10's can be placed so far behind enemy lines and still be effective over the FLOT, getting to them is half the fun sometimes. For those who fly the A-10, just stay away from them, period.:thumbup:

[Wichid]

I made a mission with a range of SA-10 units 100 miles away from me. I'm not really familiar with the model numbers but I think this included a launcher, a command unit, a search radar and a tracking radar. I flew in at 25,000ft until the RWR receiver picked up a CS warning. I then dove to about 100ft and used terrain masking until I was 5.5 miles away. Then I popped up and launched a maverick on the launcher. It seemed too easy though.

 

I think I might have not put the units in correctly though - how do I make sure that the radars and launchers are connected and talking to each other?

[EtherealN]

how do I make sure that the radars and launchers are connected and talking to each other?

 

They need to be in the same "group". That is, make a single vehicle group that contains all the elements of the SAM site.

[159th_Viper]

I think I might have not put the units in correctly though - how do I make sure that the radars and launchers are connected and talking to each other?

 

Have a look at this mission:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1267842&postcount=4

 

Alternatively utilize the template in the ME for the S-300 site.

[VFA41_Lion]

The SA-10 can not shoot down HARMs - however the SA-19 Tunguska can and will.

 

It's the SA-11s you have to watch out for - those are TELARs!

[chaos]

I then dove to about 100ft and used terrain masking until I was 5.5 miles away. Then I popped up and launched a maverick on the launcher. It seemed too easy though.

 

The SA-10 isn't that hard to defeat, particularly in wide open terrain where you can run-in at treetop level. I was thinking the same thing; "this seems a bit too easy"... Then again, these sites are usually flanked by a host of short range AA defences. Also, running in at less than 50ft. for any length of time is not realistic, I think (except over water).

[bob_baer]

Actually I read one of us guys saying that the only way is fly over 13.000 and use the tgp to find out targets. I'm a bit confused now you're all telling to use terrain masking

I would also use terrain masking but at the moment I pop up to look for targets with maverick missiles start to fly...

[GGTharos]

It depends on the threat you're facing.

[EtherealN]

A question to serve as an illustration: if angels 13 and TGP was the only way, what did the A-10A do? Whatever it did still works. The C version adds a lot of capabilities, but the Alpha-hog was a capable beast too.

 

A-hogs, by virtue (?) of being simpler, was more reliant on low angels and NOE, but even with a Charlie those same tactics are still valid in some circumstances.

[Baggy MacDouche]

The TGP can be a great stand-off weapon on its own. It's got quite the visual range.

 

I usually run recon from a safe enough distance and scout for targets and setting mark points, as well as suitable terrain that will provide cover close enough to be within mav range. Then I will drop down and close in on the target(s) location. Make sure everything is set and good to go for a quick launch. Usually I'll turn on ECM and then pop-up, lock target, rifle, then drop back down. Even if they do manage to lock you up and launch a SAM, you should be able to get back down and use terrain to block the missile.

 

Once you have this technique down it is a piece of cake. You just have to keep your SA up, making sure you know your position in relation to the target and especially the terrain. If you are using tight canyons/ridge lines, you want to make sure that you know your escape routes and have enough room to maneuver around in case you have to dodge SAMs.

 

This technique will not be viable if there is no significant terrain cover within Mav range or you don't have a TGP loaded and there is no JTAC or wingman support, which is another good way to go. Having a wingman fly recon from a safe distance while they hand-off targets via datalink.

[RadikCDN]

sa10's are bad news.. if they are in the open with no masking your done.

I can somes down the ew radar making them dumb.. but it's a crap shoot

 

I've tried 50ft of the ground no joy infact i've been shot down 50ft above the ground going between two skyscrappers so i don't think they even model buildings as objects that can mask from missiles.

 

0.02 dirty birds.

[Moa]

50 feet is too high. There is an exploit in the game where radar guided missiles cannot track you below 10 meters (below 33 feet). You need to limbo looooooweeeer.

 

In general, the mission designer either doesn't want you in the area guarded by the SAM or should put in a Wild Weasel F-16 or F-18 to sort it out for you (there are plenty of aircraft out there in real-life trained and tasked with that purpose).

[Guest Fury_007]

I think in reality a hog flight would not be intentionally sent into an AO with known SAM threats, or tasked with taking out those SAMs. They would fire off some cruise missiles, or send in sead flights, or stealth bombers, before sending in the hogs for CAS.

[711Hancer]

this is a nice documentary involving sa-6 vs f-16

 

[macedk]

An SA-10? It is better just to turn around and go home ;)

 

Nate

Sniped by a month ;)

[SUBS17]

A question to serve as an illustration: if angels 13 and TGP was the only way, what did the A-10A do? Whatever it did still works. The C version adds a lot of capabilities, but the Alpha-hog was a capable beast too.

 

A-hogs, by virtue (?) of being simpler, was more reliant on low angels and NOE, but even with a Charlie those same tactics are still valid in some circumstances.

 

The A-10A during the cold war was used and trainned with to operate at very low altitude to avoid SAMs/AAA the idea was to use popup attack. In FC2 you can take out some low level sams with cluster bombs/mavericks etc from high altitude dive bombing. But in an enviroment where the A-10A would have been used if WW3 were to happen would be on the front line against tanks so low level the whole time. Now days the A-10 operates in an enviroment where AAA/IR SAMs are operating so they would work at higher altitude to avoid those systems. If there are SA-10s etc like the WW3 scenario then it would be low level.:thumbup: