30mm HE armor penetration?

[StarHopper]

Anyone have any info on how much RHA a 30mm HE round can penetrate? After a few hours of research on the net, all I could come up with is a vague mention of a 20mm HE round being able to penetrate 12mm of RHA at 100m range. I've always wondered how much the average 30mm HE can penetrate at close range. If I can find that out, then its just determining what vehicles have what armor.

[Bee_Sting]

i will try to help 30mm HE are used for troops,buildings,nonarmored trucks. the closer the target the better the 30mm HE will be. use 30mm AP on armored trucks and tanks at 100yrs you should be effective on any target.

[StarHopper]

Lol, we'll I know you can't use HE on tanks. Thats just for hosing off any infantry on top of them. Newer Battle Tanks have upwards of 800 to 900mm of RHA (chemical) value at places, and about half that kinetic. And a lot of new APCs have good RHA values, at least at the frontal arc. What I'm wondering is how much it can pierce, so I can use it on older APCs and such, with very light armor. I know a lot of armor values from ACE 2 research in Arma 2, but I really don't know the 30 or 20mm HE RHA piercing values.

Edited October 7, 2011 by StarHopper

[Bee_Sting]

that will depend on how the rounds hit the target. if the rounds hit the target in the same place then you will have more penetrate. the a-10c has a 30mm canon and it does well at killing armored targets and thats because the rounds are hitting the same spot(knowing the weak points in the armored tragets does help),also the mixing the rounds with HE and AP rounds. the values i don't have a clue and i'm sure the info is classified.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Bee_Sting

[StarHopper]

that will depend on how the rounds hit the target. if the rounds hit the target in the same place then you will have more penetrate. the a-10c has a 30mm canon and it does well at killing armored targets and thats because the rounds are hitting the same spot(knowing the weak points in the armored tragets does help),also the mixing the rounds with HE and AP rounds. the values i don't have a clue and i'm sure the info is classified.

 

I agree with what your saying, but I wonder what the MOA error is for the 30mm gattling gun. I'm thinking not good, so your getting more of a "cone" of bullets. Just like you see when the ZSU-23 shoots at you. It looks like a cloud of bullets because of the moderate MOA of the barrels. Really good sniping rifles have an MOA of .5 which means half-inch groups at 100 meters. Now think of a cannon no where near that accurate at 1 to 2 kilometers. Trampoline area accuracy?

[adam12]

Just load all AP. HE is useless in this sim. It's for shooting infantry. Unless you want to pretend there are troops in buildings or you want to go around sniping singleton infantry that just stand there and have no way to hide from you....

 

The only possible application I can see where it might be useful would be a proximity fuzed HE round for use against helicopters. DNE.

[bogusheadbox]

Just load all AP. HE is useless in this sim

 

I couldn't disagree more.

[sobek]

There's a table on Wikipedia about the 2A42, but take those values with a grain of salt.

[XarBat]

HEI has greater damage radius, and because of the larger explosion when it reaches the target, it should be better than API against all vehicles at long range.

[159th_Viper]

Just load all AP. HE is useless in this sim. It's for shooting infantry. Unless you want to pretend there are troops in buildings or you want to go around sniping singleton infantry that just stand there and have no way to hide from you....

 

The only possible application I can see where it might be useful would be a proximity fuzed HE round for use against helicopters. DNE.

 

Nonsense.

 

Have you tried engaging targets properly with HEI? Try again.

 

 

Track DCS:BS 1.02: [ATTACH]57299[/ATTACH]

[Jaximus Decimus]

Ha, Viper, that's awesome, man.

 

If you've ever seen an A-10 engage a tank you'll know that the rounds don't all hit in the same spot. The tank literally gets peppered from stem to stern. According to wikipedia the accuracy of the gun is 5 mils. It was my belief that the GAU-8 gets its tank killing power from the special depleted uranium rounds that it fires.

[EtherealN]

But that isn't a GAU-8, that's a Shipunov 2A42. ;)

[159th_Viper]

.....If you've ever seen an A-10 engage a tank you'll know that the rounds don't all hit in the same spot. The tank literally gets peppered from stem to stern.....

 

Aye - as E says, it's the Shipunov as opposed to the GAU-8 on the Shark :)

 

In any event, from the altitude and range I engaged from (2000ft/2.8km), in a Hover, you see a decent spread on target as one would expect from the Whirly-Bird's attitude at engagement:

 

[power5]

I get plenty of kills on tanks with HEI rounds. Actually seems to kill them easier than the AP rounds.

[Jaximus Decimus]

But that isn't a GAU-8, that's a Shipunov 2A42. ;)

 

We were on a different page. I was replying to Bee_Sting saying the A-10 kills tanks so well because all the rounds hit in the same spot. :doh:

[StarHopper]

I get plenty of kills on tanks with HEI rounds. Actually seems to kill them easier than the AP rounds.

 

Which is why I'm interested in how much armor a HEI round can pierce. :music_whistling:

 

All API is, is literally a hot crossbow bolt. It punches through the armor, punches through any people in its way, and usually exits through the other side, maybe catching any flammables on fire. DU is said to be somewhat frangible, and might break into a few pieces, bouncing around the inside of the tank. An HEI round on the other hand, has a delayed fuse ( looks like 0.15 ms in this case ) which allows it just enough time to explode AFTER penetration of the armor. Now you've got a decent sized grenade exploding in the APC. Very good chance of a crew kill, which is the best kind of kill. No crew, no tank.

 

Of course, you can't use HEI on a tank. I doubt if it could even pierce the top armor on main battle tanks ( one would hope! ). Rear shot to the engine through the grill would probably work pretty well though! I don't know about M1A1's, etc., but I spent enough time in JROTC years ago at a National Guard Tank Company. We had an old M60 tank. The engine in the back was COMPLETELY exposed. Just a grill. No armor whatsoever. A few 30mm HEI in the back would have been interesting.

 

@Viper - thanks for the track!

[StarHopper]

There's a table on Wikipedia about the 2A42, but take those values with a grain of salt.

 

Thanks, Sobek, but the only hint it gives that there is some penetration is that it has a delayed fuse. Everywhere I look, I usually get an N/A when it comes to how much RHA the round can penetrate. The only value I've been able to find is the 20mm HEI able to pierce 12.5mm RHA at 100 meters. I think that was for the round on the M61 Vulcan.

Edited October 7, 2011 by StarHopper

[enigma6584]

Interesting thread. Good information here.

[Spetz]

Here's some more info on the HE-I (Russian version, Iran makes one too)round for the 2A42 (Of which there are two versions - 2 x Iranian, 2 x Russian). THe round is actually used in a few different weapon systems.

 

Explosive type = A-IX-2

Fuse type = A-670M (point detonating)

Main charge weight = 0.123kg

Weight of the round itself = .386 kg

Total cartridge weight = .8?? kg

Projectile speed = 950-970m/s

Point detonating with an A-670M fuse

Self destruct at 7.5 secs to 14.5 secs

 

Perhaps someone good in math can do the paper work with this.

 

The AP-T round can penetrate 20mm of RHA at 60 degress at 700m with a velocity of 960-980 m/s.

 

This is all from the internet.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Spetz

[isoul]

Maybe this will help a bit...

 

APC and IFV are considered light armor. There are numerous tests proving that a 30gr shrapnel produced from a blast can penetrate light armor, given the blast was close to the armored vehicle.

 

Personally I believe that a hit from a 20mm or 30mm HE round could penetrate light armored vehicles, since these rounds weight enough to do so... Why don't you just give it a try in game and see?

[StarHopper]

I wouldn't call everything light armor. There's a HUGE difference between say a BDRM and a BMP-3. And between old and modern APCs. The thing that needs to be considered here is the thickness of the steel round holding the explosive and its inertia at the time of hitting the target. 20mm HEI piercing 12.5mm RHA at 100m (manufacturer's stats ) seems feasible, if its a thick steel shell. And that's probably vertical armor, not at an angle. But watching 30mm rounds penetrating modern APCs at 2km range does not. Thats 20x farther in range than the max range penetration of the 20mm. There can't be THAT much more inertia in a 30mm shell. Does not compute.

Edited October 8, 2011 by StarHopper

[Jaximus Decimus]

Penetrating armor is more about bullet composition than mass. Unless a round is designed with a penetrator it's just not going to want to go through armor, no matter how close or far you fire it. That's why you can't find penetration info on this HEI round. I actually looked for quite a while earlier and couldn't turn up anything.

 

What does change a lot between a 20mm and a 30mm projectile is internal volume. That much more explosives in the round could make a difference in penetrating armor at long range.

 

Personally, I don't have any experience with this in anything larger than a .50 BMG.

[Spetz]

I have personnal experience with 35mm from my old job. HEI doesn't do much more than crater the armor. I've fired at both M113's and a T-64 with base armor only. The M113 did penetrate the hull but only when the round hit an already cratered section.

[StarHopper]

I have personnal experience with 35mm from my old job. HEI doesn't do much more than crater the armor. I've fired at both M113's and a T-64 with base armor only. The M113 did penetrate the hull but only when the round hit an already cratered section.

 

That's what I'm thinking. An M113 has 12 - 38mm of aluminum armor ( not steel ), and as you say, the HE only chipped and cratered the armor. The chances of a gun like the 2A42 putting a round in exactly the same place again is pretty much non-existent. If we hit the top armor, its usually at an angle, so much more chance of it ricocheting off. However, we need to take into account how thin the top armor is as well, and I have a hard time finding that info. Still, I'm guessing its probably going to be at least 10mm.

 

I'm beginning to think as before, that HEI is only really effective against unarmored trucks and such.

Edited October 8, 2011 by StarHopper

[StarHopper]

30mm Hole in the side of an M113's aluminum armor. As you can see, there are no other holes near it, and this is after being shot at by the GAU-8. So, even the GAU isn't going to hit in the same place twice. No where near it at 5 MOA.