DCS World 2.0 and New Maps Discussion Thread

[Fri13]

ED has not spoken to that issue at all.

Because ED has not even stated everything is just about moving graphics to GPU side or port current to DX11 as is.

 

They have said multiple times they have been developing "from scratch" (totally new, if someone doesn't understand) a new game engine to take all out from latest hardware as well as possible. That means EDGE is designed for multi-core systems with latest (1-2 years old at top) features graphics cards can pull.

 

We do not know anything about performance as there are no benchmarks. We have only developer videos about new engine benefits and plans from early alpha stage (over year old now) and then few videos and dozen or so screenshots from simply new engine change to current map (without changes to it) and coming new map.

 

We don't have knowledge of new AI or new physics algorithms than in very limited hints from ED or partners with new maps.

 

I have a hard time to believe that ED would be so incompetent to utilize a new engine for just DX9 -> DX11 upgrade without rethinking and designing everything else for future as well. Otherwise they need to dump everything again if needed to rebuild again all physics and other things to get better than EDGE delivers.

 

Just give them benefit of doubt that ED has skills and knowledge what they need in future, as how accurately they develop a new modules and consider current technology, they have merits to pull things amazingly well together.

 

They follow forums and their customers needs and wishes. And once they make from scratch a new engine, it isn't that you write everything as they were on current one.

 

They have a dream of complete combat wargame from fighters and bombers to helicopters and ground vehicles, even up to individual soldiers on the ground. And to follow their dreams, they know what they need to do.

[piXel496]

I heard ED compiles the GPU, doubles the memory without DX11 in the CPU die.

 

And I have no reason to believe they don't succeed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited November 18, 2014 by piXel496
It's true. I have read it somewhere.

[Buckeye]

No one is disagreeing that EDGE will improve the graphics and performance a good bit, but to think it is a complete revamp of the physics engine with CPU multi threading, etc is a bit over zealous. EDGE will be a great update/upgrade for DCS, but if you're expecting some sort of Frostbite-like engine, be prepared for a let down in a few months. Just sayin.

[Mainstay]

I just hope that the rendering engine isnt already outdated by the time it comes out by DX12 abilities. 50% to 70% faster rendering and lower power consumption sounds like a serious issue to me.

[NineLine]

I just hope that the rendering engine isnt already outdated by the time it comes out by DX12 abilities. 50% to 70% faster rendering and lower power consumption sounds like a serious issue to me.

 

There isnt too many software releases that arent "out-dated" almost immediately upon release. Depending on the complexity its hard to release to current standards when they are always changing...

[cichlidfan]

They have said multiple times they have been developing "from scratch" (totally new, if someone doesn't understand) a new game engine to take all out from latest hardware as well as possible. That means EDGE is designed for multi-core systems with latest (1-2 years old at top) features graphics cards can pull.

 

Did you get that from Google Translator?

 

EDIT: Also, at no time has anyone from ED ever called EDGE a 'game' engine. Perhaps that is the root flaw in most of your assumptions.

 

I'll quote this again.

 

What is EDGE?

EDGE, dubbed internally, Eagle Dynamic Graphic Engine, is a new Image Generator (IG) built from the ground up that allowed for numerous benefits to the DCS environment.

Edited November 18, 2014 by cichlidfan

[Scoggs]

There isnt too many software releases that arent "out-dated" almost immediately upon release. Depending on the complexity its hard to release to current standards when they are always changing...

 

While you are right, DX11 has been available since what... 2008-2009? Hopefully they can add support for DX12 at some point. But I would think it would require a massive overhaul.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Scoggs
Typing on an iPhone is hard.

[outlawal2]

We can't have it both ways folks. We complain that EDGE isn't here, and we haven't even seen it yet and folks are asking to have it be compliant with a standard that was released like what.. 3 months ago? Follow that logic and we will never see EDGE as it chases every possible update to technology that comes down the pike..

 

They need to complete what they have and if that means DX11 then so be it as it will still be much improved. THEN once that has been completed and bugs sufficiently wrung out, then they can look at updating to DX12..

 

(And as I understand it, moving from dx11 to dx12 isn't that huge of an undertaking, but going from DX9 to 12 is a big step.. That is why their current plan moving to DX11 makes perfect sense..)

 

I would MUCH rather take delivery of EDGE with DX11 rather than wait yet again for DX12..

[sobek]

DX12 isn't out yet. Up to now, nobody even knows what operating systems will get it (AMD CEO dropped a comment that W7 would be left out-> let's see who's going to be an early adopter).

[outlawal2]

DX12 isn't out yet. Up to now, nobody even knows what operating systems will get it (AMD CEO dropped a comment that W7 would be left out-> let's see who's going to be an early adopter).

 

YEP wayyyy too early to worry about DX12..

Especially if the most used OS out there isn't going to be supported..

[Mainstay]

There isnt too many software releases that arent "out-dated" almost immediately upon release. Depending on the complexity its hard to release to current standards when they are always changing...

 

I know that everything in electronic world is dated the second its released but you know what i mean when im talking about an API thats about to be released in a few months from now.

 

Especially DCS W2 the sandbox that it will be could really benefit from Dx12.

 

I quote

 

"The genesis of DX12 can be found in technology trends. GPUs have continued to rapidly increase in performance, while single-core CPU performance has been gated by power limits. Multi-core CPUs have provided some advancement but still trail GPUs in peak performance. In parallel, applications have embraced task-parallelism, adopting sophisticated scheduling systems to scale performance with the number of CPU cores. This has in turn driven the need for an API that scales similarly with core count. GPU performance can be exploited three ways: drawing better pixels, more pixels and more objects. We have reaped much of what can be gained from pixels. DX12’s focus is on enabling a dramatic increase in visual richness through a significant decrease in API-related CPU overhead. Historically, drivers and OS software have managed memory, state, and synchronization on behalf of developers. However, inefficiencies result from the imperfect understanding of an application’s needs. DX12 gives the application the ability to directly manage resources and state, and perform necessary synchronization. As a result, developers of advanced applications can efficiently control the GPU, taking advantage of their intimate knowledge of the game’s behavior."

 

Source http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/directx-12/

[outlawal2]

I know that everything in electronic world is dated the second its released but you know what i mean when im talking about an API thats about to be released in a few months from now.

 

Especially DCS W2 the sandbox that it will be could really benefit from Dx12.

 

I quote

 

"The genesis of DX12 can be found in technology trends. GPUs have continued to rapidly increase in performance, while single-core CPU performance has been gated by power limits. Multi-core CPUs have provided some advancement but still trail GPUs in peak performance. In parallel, applications have embraced task-parallelism, adopting sophisticated scheduling systems to scale performance with the number of CPU cores. This has in turn driven the need for an API that scales similarly with core count. GPU performance can be exploited three ways: drawing better pixels, more pixels and more objects. We have reaped much of what can be gained from pixels. DX12’s focus is on enabling a dramatic increase in visual richness through a significant decrease in API-related CPU overhead. Historically, drivers and OS software have managed memory, state, and synchronization on behalf of developers. However, inefficiencies result from the imperfect understanding of an application’s needs. DX12 gives the application the ability to directly manage resources and state, and perform necessary synchronization. As a result, developers of advanced applications can efficiently control the GPU, taking advantage of their intimate knowledge of the game’s behavior."

 

Source http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/directx-12/

\

But if half of your customer base is on WIN7 (No idea if that is the case, but just saying) and WIN7 is not supported for DX12 then spending time and effort at this time does not make a lot of sense..

[thawall]

I'm not a developer for DCS, but a software developer non the less and from my experience there are always solution and improvements you can make to an existing platform.

 

EDGE might be the most visible and prominent component planned to change in near future, but that doesn't mean that other components are not constantly extended, refactored and improved, without us consumers noticing.

 

Also, if CPU performance is such a problem, then I'm sure ED has something up their sleves.

 

So I think, the DCS Engine + EDGE will be viable for years to come.

[shagrat]

DirectX9 was outdated when? So we still use it to have fun? DCS World already supports Oculus rift, which is not even left development SDK status? And people complain about EDGE not supporting DX12? Why not go ask ED to support voice recognition and mind controllers, at least it is a technology that exists?

 

Ridiculous... some people are not happy if they can't find a thing to complain about, I guess.

[shagrat]

While you are right, DX11 has been available since what... 2008-2009? Hopefully they can add support for DX12 at some point. But I would think it would require a massive overhaul.

First it would require DirectX12 to be released for starters? :doh:

[kontiuka]

DirectX9 was outdated when? So we still use it to have fun? DCS World already supports Oculus rift, which is not even left development SDK status? And people complain about EDGE not supporting DX12? Why not go ask ED to support voice recognition and mind controllers, at least it is a technology that exists?

 

Ridiculous... some people are not happy if they can't find a thing to complain about, I guess.

Don't try to bend our opinions with your mind controller!

[shagrat]

Don't try to bend our opinions with your mind controller!

I'm quite serious:

 

Maybe mind control was a bad choice of words. Non native speaker here... :D

Edited November 18, 2014 by shagrat

[SkateZilla]

Ummm, didnt I just post a huge breakdown of DX9c vs DX11 On SimHq to answer questions about performance and general differences etc. Guess I have to copy/paste it here ASAP.

 

As for DX12, the featureset isnt finalized nor is the devkits, none of the current GPUs are even 100% compatible with DX12. So there's nol point in even thinking about it.

[Pepec9124]

Multithread support > EDGE > DX12

[cichlidfan]

Multithread support > EDGE > DX12

 

So EDGE is not coming soon?

[Flogger23m]

DX12 would probably be helpful for DCS. It offloads work from the CPU and puts more load on the GPU. Seeing that DCS, even with EDGE, appears to use single core CPUs only this can be helpful. DX11 itself is rather old; from 2009. While it is a big jump from DX9 I wouldn't be surprised if DX11 to 12 turns out to be just as big of a jump.

 

Obviously though DX12 is not out. Perhaps in the next "major version" of DCS we can get DX12 support added. And maybe they can add multicore CPU support. Flight sims heavily rely on the CPU so I am sure multicore support would make DCS run better, especially in missions with lots of AI units.

 

*I assume ED has not added multicore support to EDGE, as they have never mentioned it anywhere.

[kontiuka]

Perhaps in the next "major version" of DCS we can get DX12 support added.

Then everyone will be screaming for DX15 support.

[Scoggs]

First it would require DirectX12 to be released for starters? :doh:

 

Wasn't my point really. Just hope we get support for it in the future. Just was pointing out that DX11 has been out for quite some time and we are only now getting support for it.

 

Although I guess it does sound like I am complaining, don't mean it that way.

 

I'm happy for DX11 in EDGE, and can't wait to try it out.

[SkateZilla]

Heavy Multi-threaded support isnt going to fix much, as it's likely not the root source of the FPS issues.

 

DCS 1.xxxxx is multi-threaded,

1 Thread for Sound

1 Thread for everything else, AI, physics, DirectX resources management etc.

 

Which uses DX9 and a lot of CPU resources and inefficiently uses Unified Shaders as DX9 was designed to run on GPUs with Separate function specific shaders.

 

I bet DX9's resource managment process uses more of the CPU than the physics or AI does.

 

DX11 is designed to run on Unified Shader Arch.

 

And DX11s 'Resource Managment Process is also designed to be multi-threaded to avoid bombarding a single thread/core with all the intructions.

 

A GPU can only render as fast as the CPU feeds the DX9 functions and commands to the GPU.

 

If you bog down one thread/core with 1000 DX9 draw call commands/functions what do you think is going to happen? It's not going to be able to feed all the commands to the GPU efficiently and FPS drops.

 

Thats not even getting into specifics of DX9's Pixel, Geometry and Vertex Shaders DX9 expects to use, which leaves several blocks of your Unified shaders in DX10+ GPUs sitting idle when those functions aren't being used.

 

DX12 is supposed to be an extremely tweaked DX11 and the devkit is rumored to make the Transition from 11 to 12 easy. But it's at least a year from being done. And will be a WinX/8.2 Exclusive API.

 

The FPS issues are likely due to:

-an Old engine designed to run on a aged and inefficient Shader Model.

 

-an Old engine in which the Object level of Detail, Object Count and Object's Complexity have surpassed what the engine was originally developed to render.

Edited November 18, 2014 by SkateZilla

[thawall]

I second what SkateZilla said.

 

DX11/12 (whatever...) will improve the rendering efficiency by moving operations from the CPU to the GPU and therefore freeing up resources on the main processor.

 

But what it absolutely will not do, is turn the rest of your code (game logic, AI, etc) magically into multi-threaded code.

 

This is a problem you have to solve elsewhere in the application architecture.