AGM 88 HARM

[dooom]

After getting a taste of Falcon BMS recently and playing with the AGM 88 within a SEAD mission, I have to say i like it.... alot.

 

that said, why doesn't the A10C carry the HAD/AGM 88 capability. Their TOT and CAS role should make it a reasonable role...

 

Does anyone know why?

 

S!

[Snoopy]

Because we don't fly sead

[sobek]

Does anyone know why?

 

I don't know, but i can guess.

 

The H in HARM stands for high speed. The HARM likes to be fired from high altitude and with high speed to begin with so it can play out it's maximum range. Not really a discipline in which the Hawg can excell.

 

Also, if a SAM is after you, the Hawg is about the last thing you wanna be in unless you can hit the deck and put a mountain in between you and that missile.

 

It simply is the wrong tool for the job.

[159th_Viper]

Also, if a SAM is after you, the Hawg is about the last thing you wanna be in unless you can hit the deck and put a mountain in between you and that missile

 

Whilst the Wart-Weasels performed admirably in the SEAD role assigned to them during the war, in a modern battlefield scenario the above is especially true. Reminds me of that F-16 HUD tape where the pilot squealed his way towards a replacement flight-suite whilst being engaged by a SHORAD system IIRC - would have ended in tears in a Hog me thinks.

[Speed]

Also, a SAM killing aircraft needs to be maneuverable and fast. SAMs IRL don't just sit there blasting their radiation out into the battle space and waiting to get blown away by long-range ARM shots. They are sneaky little bastards. So you need good maneuverability and fast speed on a SAM killing aircraft, so you can dodge SAMs launched by clever SAM operators, and A-10 doesn't fit the bill.

 

Perhaps in a perfect world (for the USAF at least) the USAF would have infinite money and be able to waste the money to upgrade the A-10 to be able to mount the HARM.

[ALDEGA]

Why? The USAF has aircraft than can handle the SEAD role. A-10C does the CAS role fine. With the USAF's budget they don't need a single aircraft that does every role.

[LostOblivion]

Whilst the Wart-Weasels performed admirably in the SEAD role assigned to them during the war, in a modern battlefield scenario the above is especially true. Reminds me of that F-16 HUD tape where the pilot squealed his way towards a replacement flight-suite whilst being engaged by a SHORAD system IIRC - would have ended in tears in a Hog me thinks.

 

Do you have a link? Sounds interesting.

 

On the topic. Although it makes sense for us players to want proper SEAD armament on the hog, this is only because we only currently have the hog to play with in DCS. This limitation is not there IRL and it does not make any sense at all to fit HARM functionality into a hog.

[Aries]

Whilst the Wart-Weasels performed admirably in the SEAD role assigned to them during the war, in a modern battlefield scenario the above is especially true. Reminds me of that F-16 HUD tape where the pilot squealed his way towards a replacement flight-suite whilst being engaged by a SHORAD system IIRC - would have ended in tears in a Hog me thinks.

 

Yup...link? :music_whistling:

[159th_Viper]

Do you have a link?

 

Link to?

 

Wart-Weasels or F-16 HUD tape?

[159th_Viper]

For the sake of completeness, herewith links:

 

For what it's worth, was a legacy Isayev S-125 Neva/Pechora SAM system (SA-3 Goa). A 4-ship flight of F-16's were engaged, resulting in two F-16's being downed. Herewith HUD tape of one of the downed F-16's wingman (Stroke 3) evading 6 missiles:

 

2uh4yMAx2UA

 

For more info, see Day Three of the report:

 

The Lucky Devils Gulf mission

 

 

 

Re Wart-Weasels, see pg 78 onwards:

 

The U.S. Air Force in the Kuwaiti Theater of Operations

Edited December 10, 2011 by 159th_Viper

[Vekkinho]

A-10 is a bit too slow to fly into SAM detection range and provoke a lock.

[CharlieMike24]

Intense. I didn't see that Stroke 3 was downed, though.

 

Edit: Ah, I see it was his wingman downed.

Frightening to hear. Thanks for the post.

Edited December 11, 2011 by CharlieMike24

[Warthogger]

After getting a taste of Falcon BMS recently and playing with the AGM 88 within a SEAD mission, I have to say i like it.... alot.

 

that said, why doesn't the A10C carry the HAD/AGM 88 capability. Their TOT and CAS role should make it a reasonable role...

 

Does anyone know why?

 

S!

 

You can always task a couple (or more) of F16 CJs with the mission editor, loading them out with up to 4x HARM each. Have your CJ flight hit the target area before your A-10 flight ingresses to clear out the active SAMs. I made a SA-11 battery (Snow Drift Radar, two missile launcher vehicles, one command vehicle) guarding a tank company and had a flight of two CJs tasked to take out the SA-11. The SA-11 site took out both F-16s, but not before one of the Falcons got off a HARM and took out a SAM launcher. The SA-11 site fired all 8 of their missiles at the F-16 flight, so by the time my A-10s arrived on scene they (and the tank company) were basically defenseless. Four CBU-97s and 1150 rounds of 30mm later everything on the ground was dead or dying, hehe.

 

The moral of the story is to sacrifice AI so that you may live. :megalol:

[Speed]

For the sake of completeness, herewith links:

 

For what it's worth, was a legacy Isayev S-125 Neva/Pechora SAM system (SA-3 Goa). A 4-ship flight of F-16's were engaged, resulting in two F-16's being downed. Herewith HUD tape of one of the downed F-16's wingman (Stroke 3) evading 6 missiles:

 

Err... I believe this is from the "Package Q" mission to downtown Baghdad. IIRC, it was a 72 X F-16C (yes, seventy-two F-16Cs), plus some F-4G Wild Weasels and probably F-15Cs to strike three targets in Baghdad. One strike package bigger than many nation's entire air force. GWAPS (Gulf War Air Power Survey) has a good overview of it. You can also read about it in Vipers in the Storm. They didn't have SA-3s shot at them; they had everything but the kitchen sink shot at them. IIRC, there were two F-16s lost, with both pilots ejected and were taken prisoner. Supposedly they didn't use F-16s against targets in Baghdad again after that.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Speed

[Eddie]

Err... I believe this is from the "Package Q" mission to downtown Baghdad. IIRC, it was a 72 X F-16C (yes, seventy-two F-16Cs), plus some F-4G Wild Weasels and probably F-15Cs to strike three targets in Baghdad. One strike package bigger than many nation's entire air force. GWAPS (Gulf War Air Power Survey) has a good overview of it. You can also read about it in Vipers in the Storm. They didn't have SA-3s shot at them; they had everything but the kitchen sink shot at them. IIRC, there were two F-16s lost, with both pilots ejected and were taken prisoner. Supposedly they didn't use F-16s against targets in Baghdad again after that.

 

Stroke 3 was enaged by SA-2 but the flights had RWR indications for both SA-2 and SA-3 as well as AAA, and as you said just about everything else.

 

An account of the events is here.

[LostOblivion]

Thanks for the info, it is a good read.

[159th_Viper]

......They didn't have SA-3s shot at them; they had everything but the kitchen sink shot at them.....

 

One F-16 ( 87-0257 ) was downed by a SA-3, the other ( 87-0228 ) by a SA-6.

[Aries]

That's why I loved my Hog in "A-10 Cuba!"... Any Zeus that was brave enough to point a finger at me would so quickly be "in Harms way"... It was just a matter of spike "line" on RWR (some stronger, some fainter) and a press of the "H" key to choose the lucky AGM-88 contest winner...

[Steel Jaw]

That's why we need a Fast Mover in the DCS world for increased realism. In a real battle zone, the Hawgs would get spanked by A2A they way we buzz around for so long. And though we fly against SAMs in the DCS A10, in RL you would only do that as a last resort, instead calling in the SEAD Weasel '16s or '18s.

[Speed]

One F-16 ( 87-0257 ) was downed by a SA-3, the other ( 87-0228 ) by a SA-6.

 

Right, my point is they weren't engaged by SA-3; they were engaged by 23mm, 57mm, possibly 85mm and 100mm; SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-8... It was amazing that only two aircraft were lost out of the seventy-two F-16s. IIRC, though, the air defenses actually did their job pretty well as everyone was jinking so much that either most bombs were jettisoned or missed the target.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Speed

[159th_Viper]

... It was amazing that only two aircraft were lost out of the seventy-two F-16s.....

 

There were only 8 F-16's in that particular piece of sky. A 25% attrition rate is pretty high.

Edited December 11, 2011 by 159th_Viper