Labels Aren't Cheating!

[PeterP]

Here is a simple comparison of 1920x1080 and my setup.

 

And I think that there is nothing wrong with the view/drawing distance of airborne targets as long you don't have a greater FOV than 100.

 

 

(the mission file is attached - and simply press "ESC" at mission-start - because you start airborne 3feet over the ground)

 

 

Please excuse that I didn't switched off the 85% Jpg compression - so please keep in mind that it appears a little bit clearer when in the simulation as on these pictures.

So I have no problem to see airborne targets up to 12km against a clear sky and this is getting much better when the "dots" are moving.

 

And as a conclusion I want to underline that this is not a limitation of the software as some are suggesting - it is a limitation of the hardware we are using.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I fully understand the wish to use labels when you have a 22" screen at 1920x1080 and don't want to fixate your FOV.

 

Originally Posted by PeterP

At a horizontal resolution higher than 3840 this really becomes a non-issue and you are not thinking at all to use labels.

I disagree with both of your points.

Edited February 17, 2012 by PeterP

[Puddlemonkey]

Interesting. I wonder if the problem is more that the AI sees things that should be obscured by the weather?

 

Who knows.... Thanks for the .miz. Whilst it is useful for checking visibility, I soon got distracted by the great fun to be had gunning down all those KA-50s!

[Tozzifan]

Hi,

 

I had a play around with the labels because I was finding it impossible to spot objects, especially aircraft.

 

I edited labels.lua so that a black dot is placed over distant objects. This grows with the object as they get closer. I made it black for both sides so you still need to id the objects and work out which ones are the enemy. Bblack doesn't generally show up against the interior of the cockpit so it only helps you to see those objects through the windows.

 

I figured this isn't cheating as it is overcoming the limitations of a simulator - objects are easier to spot in real life.

 

Anyway, here is what I came up with and it has made the sim a lot more playable for me:

 

AirFormat = {}

AirFormat[1000] = ""

AirFormat[2000] = "o"

AirFormat[5000] = "*"

AirFormat[15000] = "'"

GroundFormat = {}

GroundFormat[1000] = ""

GroundFormat[2000] = "*"

GroundFormat[5000] = "o"

GroundFormat[8000] = "'"

NavyFormat = {}

WeaponFormat = {}

WeaponFormat[2000] = "o"

-- Colors in {red, green, blue} format, volume from 0 up to 255

ColorAliesSide = {0, 0, 0}

ColorEnemiesSide = {0, 0, 0}

 

thank you

 

this squares things a little more - along my learning process - against wingmen AI unreliability and (latest discover) SAMs capable of shooting at tree level (!)

[pixelpilot]

Thanks matey i'm ganna give this a try. I'm still learning the sim and untill i'm an awsome pilot who fully understands my aircraft systems i do need a little help. It doesn't sit well with me using labels but I generally cant find anything without them and these minimalist labels of yours seem like a great happy medium. Sure when i can fly in my sleep and am being talked onto target by a human JTAC in multiplayer it will be time to ditch labels but till then thanks for your idea.

[effte]

I try to speak only on matters where I have relevant experience. In this case, my experience covers:

 

A) 1920x1080 on a 22" monitor... I think... possibly 24"... with TrackIR and zoom on the Z-axis

 

B) Spending lots of time (and I do mean lots) admiring the world and air traffic at altitudes mainly up to FL100, with 20/14 or so vision.

 

C) Spending quite a bit of time on the ground looking for aircraft, again with 20/14 vision.

 

I can tell you that I find acquiring targets on the ground a whole lot easier in the real world than in A-10C. The difference is even more pronounced, by far, when it comes to reacquiring known targets. I think this is due to monitor resolution, poor SA when seated in front of a monitor and real-life terrain giving you far more visual cues.

 

I haven't been taking notes, so I can't tell you that "you're going to see a vehicle of size x at y miles slant range".

 

I can tell you that I'm constantly annoyed at the difficulty of spotting ground targets in the sim, v s my real-world experience, and I'll give the reduced labels a go as a crutch to compensate for hardware limitations. But, it is a free world. Everyone else is equally entitled to his/her ridiculous opinion... :D

 

(Try putting a speedboat in calm seas and tell me it isn't ridiculously hard to spot.)

 

Air-to-air, I think it is more or less right. At least I'm never jolted back to reality by the visual appearance of other aerodynes during my pretend-piloting sessions, so it passes the suspension of disbelief test.

[Puddlemonkey]

Thanks Effte. It's good to have real-life feedback.

 

My monitor doesn't handle 1920 so I think it's probably time for a trip to PC World:badmood:

[sjpateys]

I have modified my labels so that ground units show up as a green dot at 8km. The label disappears when you are within 4km of target so you still have to search them out with the shkval. also friendly fire still has to be avoided. i think this gives a good balance between realism and full labels which kill the game completely as far as I'm concerned.

[Pikey]

I have my labels as off for friendlies and pure black at 5km for ground vehicles and 10km for air targets only. No range info or vehicle type for other anything.

 

The net effect is that you get enhanced notice in daytime of ground vehicles as a black dot which catches your eye in the same way glints or shapes could. In twilight and darkness you see nothing. What it does is catch your attention by making up for your loss of definition. It gives no amazing advantage other than a 5km notice that something is there and its enemy, which is still a huge bonus for identification and allows time to doge bullets.

 

Can't think of a balance for vehicles cammed up though or behind buidlings and relative size is an issue, like its the same dot for infantry which is too much.

 

With air targets because there is no glint, no other clues like trails and smoke that i've noticed I've added a dot a little further out to represent the fact that its possible on a clear day, but the labels dont account for weather so it can be unrealistic.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Pikey

[Evil.Bonsai]

I will have to look into this. I've never used labels, but I certainly have issues finding targets at times, even when flying over them. I see tracers but that camo works really well :)

[sjpateys]

i might try a 5 km distance. Its difficult getting a balance between playability and realism. I set my distance to 8km because that is the max range of the vikhrs. I forgot to mention that I have changed the distances to 8km and label disappears when you get to 6km out from target.

[genbrien]

I have modified my labels so that ground units show up as a green dot at 8km. The label disappears when you are within 4km of target so you still have to search them out with the shkval. also friendly fire still has to be avoided. i think this gives a good balance between realism and full labels which kill the game completely as far as I'm concerned.

 

great idea. Can you please copy the code you're using for having those labels ?

Thx :thumbup:

Edited June 25, 2012 by genbrien
spelling

[HiJack]

I have modified my labels so that ground units show up as a green dot at 8km. The label disappears when you are within 4km of target so you still have to search them out with the shkval. also friendly fire still has to be avoided. i think this gives a good balance between realism and full labels which kill the game completely as far as I'm concerned.

A good idea! But there are times when you need to see the lables up close when doing practise runs and its also nice to se close when doing mission design. For day to day play its a good idea.

 

(HJ)

[Dejjvid]

This is gonna be a bigger issue when we get the fast jets.

WWIIOL has a nice system, but in DCS i think it'll be too obvious. So i think ED should come up with something in between WWIIOL style labels, and the squares posted in this thread. And make mission designer decide if they're allowed in the current mission.

[Ali Fish]

i think the labels system itself could do with a layer of intelligence.

 

possibly along the lines of providing some sort of programmable extra to the scenario. one aspect of the sim, any sim, that falls down is our abillity to feel the situation. to feel where we may find an enemy based on the expectation , and also the visual dynamic system of interpreting a difference up in the clouds or sky. the degree of probability of spotting an aircraft let alone identifying it for a single aircraft is so radically different depending on the situation. may it be light ,weather or just visual restrictions. i know metallics do something very special ingame now, at distance you can see the wing flash from along way away, but not long enough.

 

where the visual mechanics let us down in places i think we could have some sort of hint style system that encourages us to spot aircraftthrough simply overcoming the constraints of our sim.. i dont know what this would be. but i know in arma 2 the soundscape is hinted through via a visual cue, and similarly in our flightsim i think it could be done to reasonable effect. a system that encourages us and does not hinder us but still never actually points definitivly to the source.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Ali Fish

[Pikey]

My labels (slightly different from what i remembered in my earlier post.)

 

AirFormat = {}

--AirFormat[10] = ""

--AirFormat[5000] = "}%N%n%D%n%P"

--AirFormat[10000] = "}%N%n%D"

AirFormat[10000] = "'"

--AirFormat[30000] = "'"

 

GroundFormat = {}

GroundFormat[1000] = "{%N%n%D"

--GroundFormat[10000] = "~%n%D"

GroundFormat[5000] = "`"

 

NavyFormat = {}

--NavyFormat[10000] = "{%N%n%D"

--NavyFormat[20000] = "~%n%D"

--NavyFormat[40000] = "`"

 

WeaponFormat = {}

WeaponFormat[5000] = "[%N%n%D"

--WeaponFormat[10000] = "|%n%D"

--WeaponFormat[20000] = "|"

 

-- Colors in {red, green, blue} format, volume from 0 up to 255

 

ColorAliesSide = {0, 0, 0}

ColorEnemiesSide = {0, 0, 0}

 

So, when I first looked my ground labels were 7km, and i'd be inclined to change back to that because altitude comes into effect and you have to get quite close to above them.

 

Also friendlies have to be shown... :( not tried to comment that out but worth trying.

 

5k missiles...Don't think 5000m is an especially big advantage. Assuming you do see it, you'll get a hint what it was, which is fair, but no advantage. Certian missiles can be seen from a lonng way off.

 

@sjpateys - I had a setup where I turned off labels close in also. It was disorientating during manouevres when they disappear.

 

@Ali Fish - all sounds good, I think this has been in the suggestion box but if not I'll spin up a wishlist post again. It's definitely something where some additions would be welcome!

Edited June 25, 2012 by Pikey
missiles

[sjpateys]

great idea. Can you please copy the code you're using for having those labels ?

Thx :thumbup:

 

here's my lua script as requested. Note that I have only changed the ground unit labels. Labels appear at 8km and disappear at 6km. I have left air and naval units as default for now.

 

-- Label parameters

-- Copyright © 2004, Eagle Dynamics.

 

AirOn = true

GroundOn = true

NavyOn = true

WeaponOn = true

 

-- Label max distance depends on graphics visibility range option value

-- For low �E40000.0 m

-- For medium �E50000.0 m

-- For high �E80000.0 m

 

---------------------------------

-- Label text format symbols

-- %N - name of object

-- %D - distance to object

-- %P - pilot name

-- %n - new line

-- %% - symbol '%'

-- %x, where x is not NDPn% - symbol 'x'

------------------------------------------

-- Example

-- labelFormat[5000] = "Name: %N%nDistance: %D%n Pilot: %P"

-- up to 5km label is:

-- Name: Su-33

-- Distance: 30km

-- Pilot: Pilot1

 

AirFormat = {}

AirFormat[10] = ""

AirFormat[10000] = "'"

 

 

GroundFormat = {}

GroundFormat[6000] =""

GroundFormat[8000] = "`"

 

NavyFormat = {}

NavyFormat[10000] = "{%N%n%D"

NavyFormat[20000] = "~%n%D"

NavyFormat[40000] = "`"

 

WeaponFormat = {}

WeaponFormat[5000] = "[%N%n%D"

WeaponFormat[10000] = "|%n%D"

WeaponFormat[20000] = "|"

 

-- Colors in {red, green, blue} format, volume from 0 up to 255

 

ColorAliesSide = {0, 255, 0}

ColorEnemiesSide = {0, 255, 0}

[Pikey]

There is a label wishlist already up at http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=90446&highlight=labels if you want to express your ideas for awesome labels.

 

To repeat what I said there, I'd like something that accounted for where you are looking. Ie if you are looking at the object you get a label, if you look close, perhaps a subtle dot, if nowhere near, then nothing.

 

I also had an idea on how to simulate "glinting" perhaps by putting a small visual distortion on the object that when you point of view moved it looked like a disturbance such as you might see if looking through the side of a glass or something heavily antialiased.

[Cali]

Using labels and cheating is up to you....in single player or if you host a multiplayer game. I don't use them and never have liked using them. Although sometimes they could be useful in helping you learn the game and distance seeing objects.