Black Shark 2: How to defend with the KA-50 against a plane attack?

[FlightControl]

Hello everybody,

 

I own Black Shark now for a while.

There is one thing that i could not find out till now, that is, how to I defend against a plane attack in black shark?

 

F.e., when my wingman starts to shout "Tally Bandit, 12 'o clock...", i can expect that an A-10 plane soon will start shooting me. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. And flares don't help either.

 

So I have the following questions:

- What defense tactics are there against planes, when flying a helicopter?

- Is there any device or instrument that i oversee on the KA-50?

 

Of course, i can alsways command my wingman to shoot the bandit, but that means less of fun...

 

So, any experience guys with this one? Can you share your experience and tactics?

 

best regards,

Sven

[EtherealN]

Not the most glamorous, but if the bandit is fixed wing I just hit the deck and look for a place to hide. You have to be really skilled and use a lot of terrain as well as predicting his attack path to defeat a fixed-wing that's chasing you (and of course, if it's a pointy-nose, don't even try, just hide).

[leafer]

http://www.101st.org/Data/5.27.htm

[FlightControl]

Longbow 2 pictures?

 

http://www.101st.org/Data/5.27.htm

 

Am i mistaken, but are these the original Janes Longbow 2 pictures from the manual ? :-) Wauw, that is a long time ago.

Wish DCS would bring out also the KA-52, which has also Ir and radar capability. That would be really a great helicopter sim then!

 

Sven

[FlightControl]

Funny thing is, when i tried again, i set my Vikr scan mode to AA, and locked target... Shot, and nailed one, this was an A-10C. But it is damn hard to "detect" these bogies without radar and radio intelligence...

 

Sven

[MTFDarkEagle]

My solution: put a big slab of good Earth between you and the plane. (backup option: get as low as possible). But really, you should not be in the air at all if you don't have air superiority.

[FlightControl]

My solution: put a big slab of good Earth between you and the plane. (backup option: get as low as possible). But really, you should not be in the air at all if you don't have air superiority.

 

 

And what if you are flying in the flat planes of earth???

 

Sven

[msalama]

And what if you are flying in the flat planes of earth???

 

If the terrain is flat and there's nowhere to hide? You'll simply go down unless the opposing pilot is a complete moron. Sorry, but them's the breaks ;)

[EtherealN]

http://www.101st.org/Data/5.27.htm

 

"Avoid detection by maintaining a hover close to the ground or near cover. [...] renders the fighter's radar and weapon tracking systems ineffective."

 

True in the game, but not in reality. (In-game the helicopter can notch easily, while in reality the spinning rotors would give enough of a doppler return that there's no way the radar won't see it for what it is.)

 

"The air-to-air missile guidance systems on most fighters are incapable of distinguishing between moving ground vehicles and NOE-flying helicopters."

 

This sounds like the 80's. (I've read that during exercises in germany back in the days the helo pilots sometimes flew along the autobahn to hide their return amongst the vehicles on the road.) Unfortunately, again, unless your plane hasn't been upgraded at all since then it's pretty much not true anymore, AFAIK. See, for example, the case in Iraq where an F-15E locked up an Mi-8 (I think it was) as it was just about to take off, slaved a JDAM to the radar, and proceeded to get an A2A kill with that weapon...

 

Unfortunately, most of it also relies on having A2A weapons, which the Ka-50 doesn't really have. The Vikhr can be used, but this is cumbersome anough that I really don't recommend it - especially since even an A-10 could simply pickle an AIM-9 and then break off, spoiling your attack but leaving a very fast-flying weapon heading straight for you. (If your nose is pointed at him he can launch his weapon pretty much the second he gets a good tone without fear of the weapon not being within energy limits since you can't run.)

 

If you -really- have to fight him, use terrain or buildings to limit his attack paths, make sure to keep as much eyeball on him as possible, and prepare to feed him some 30mm whenever you can. But a smart A-10 pilot won't attack from level altitude - he can dive very steeply if he has to, keeping a solid bead on you, from angles so steep that you simply cannot keep your nose high enough for a shot more than a split second. If at all possible, take a snapshot if you can and you know he has seen you, and if you have reason to believe that he is not aware of you (or at least not aware of your location), find somewhere to hide or a safe egress route and come back later.

[EtherealN]

If the terrain is flat and there's nowhere to hide? You'll simply go down unless the opposing pilot is a complete moron. Sorry, but them's the breaks ;)

 

Fortunately, online there is enough people that do fly like that. I've seen F-15's come down to tree level to attack me... :D

[msalama]

Fortunately, online there is enough people that do fly like that. I've seen F-15's come down to tree level to attack me... :D

 

Heh, comes to morons I definitely fit the bill myself ;) Was flying Dragon's Attack on Krymsk for the 1st time yesterday, and decided to go in like Flynn after the SAM site was destroyed. So there I was screaming in on treetop level in my A-10, and of course promptly failed to notice this Apache geezer hovering nearby. And the rest, as they say, is history - and so was I :D

[TurboHog]

I have become reasonably effective against A10 attacks by playing Dragon's Hamburger Hill mission alot. In most cases I did not kill them, but hit them just a few times to make go RTB... Some tips:

 

When caught in the open:

 

Get a visual on your attacker and point your nose towards him while doing a 50 - 75 km/h sideslip (makes you less easy to spot and to hit while moving). Stay low but avoid a dust cloud at any time since it gives away your position. Now, either use HMS to target the A10, lase, and fire guns when attacker is about 2.5 km away from you. (with a/a mode on). In most cases this is too difficult so I usually keep my gun(pods) in boresight. If he finds just fire at him during the head on engagement... spray and pray. When he passes you it gets really interesting. Turn fast to maintain a visual on your (now evading) attacker, fire some rounds after him. Most pilots keep flying straight thinking that you can never shoot them down. This is how I got most my A10 kills in a KA50. Gunpods also work fine for close engagements. They have a good supression effect in head-on engagements because they fire alot of rounds at once. Sometimes they break of the attack when 50 rounds passed by in less than a second. I've done some A10 vs KA50 testing with a friend. I was using 4 gunpods and used them all together. He said I looked like a 'Flying Shilka'. He shot me down twice, I shot him down twice. Everything took place in the open. So no real advantage here for the A10.

 

You can spot a sidewinder launch easily. Look at the A10's right wing, if you see a flash, pop flares. If he fires a maverick. Let go the stick, you have no chance. Luckily most pilots want to kill you in style because they think you are an easy prey.

 

When cover is possible:

 

Get a visual on your attacker, while hovering low, make sure cover is not far away (less than 5 seconds of sideslip). Determine his direction of attack. Try to maintain a visual as long as possible so he wont break of his attack. When he is getting close, quickly take cover behind a building. He will most likely overfly you now. Now attack him from behind. When he turns, wait untill he is facing you and take cover again and attack him if possible. Move to another building after two attacks.

 

Even though I use these tactics the A10's do have the advantage over you when using sidewinders or Mavericks. In a gunfight, chances are more or less equal. When cover is available, you can easily win. Please note that this experience is based on multiplayer and human enemies. The AI is probably more challenging, since I use a lot of human factors in my advantage such as supression, while an AI plane won't care about 50 HE bullets near missing him...

 

Good luck!

Edited March 3, 2012 by TurboHog

[leafer]

Please tell me I did not link an out dated game manual.

[Bushmanni]

Using flares pre-emptively pretty much prevents a fighter from launching a heat seeker at you outside Vikhr range. Hover near a building or similar cover, use ministick or HMS to point Shkval to the enemy fast mover diving in and lock him up. Wait for him to get almost to launching range and pull nose up and line up for launch and fire two missiles. After launch you can let your nose come down as the Shkval can point upwards for some degree. Just keep an eye on the slew constraint marker at the left side of the Shkval to not break the lock by lowering the nose too much. If he manages to fire a missile you can always retreat behind cover and try again when he comes at you again. Always get behind cover before the fighter gets within gun range and turn around to prepare for shooting him in the butt with the gun. I have tested this against AI fighters and it works fine but against Maverick firing humans I have no experience.

[WildBillKelsoe]

If the terrain is flat and there's nowhere to hide? You'll simply go down unless the opposing pilot is a complete moron. Sorry, but them's the breaks ;)

 

 

Hello!!??? there is always way to hide in the flats. The town buildings...

 

But the blast radius from the missile impact will certainly impale one or more systems, giving you a day to curse straight to the shooter..

And its easier for the shark to hide, the A-10 not so-so...

[msalama]

Hello!!??? there is always way to hide in the flats.

 

When an opposing pilot flying an A-to-A missile-equipped fixed-wing aircraft sees you puttering about over open ground that's your goose well cooked, be sure. Mind you that I specifically stated OVER OPEN GROUND WITH NOWHERE TO HIDE as opposed to a situation where you anticipate his presence and take necessary precautions against a possible attack, mind ;)

[213]

land and get out of the cockpit

[WildBillKelsoe]

When an opposing pilot flying an A-to-A missile-equipped fixed-wing aircraft sees you puttering about over open ground that's your goose well cooked, be sure. Mind you that I specifically stated OVER OPEN GROUND WITH NOWHERE TO HIDE as opposed to a situation where you anticipate his presence and take necessary precautions against a possible attack, mind ;)

 

Yeah, but the entire map, flat grounds are usually full of settlements. Mind me?

[159th_Viper]

Yeah, but the entire map, flat grounds are usually full of settlements. Mind me?

 

Don't forget to pray that the fast-jet jockey hunting you forgot to set his scenes to low.....:P

[Bushmanni]

I did some more testing and a video on one of the test engagements. What I found is that radar and heat seeking missiles are quite easily rendered useless in the game even on open ground. Radar can be notched and heat seekers spoofed by flares as the choppers heat signature while detectable is low enough to make the missile quite probably go after flares instead. So Maverics, Hellfires, Vikhrs and other ATGMs are the best bet to score a hit on a helicopter in DCS besides the gun.

 

Here's the video:

StjWiqWR3hs

 

The Vikhrs couldn't keep up with the Eagle unless he was coming straight at me that's why I'm firing only after he starts the dive at 5km. My missiles exploded prematurely few metres ahead of the Eagle and thus failed to bring him down. Shouldn't probably have used the head-on aspect setting. When I switch to gun the range setting starts to go crazy and my initial bursts miss him completely but after lasing they connect and blow his wing off.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Bushmanni
Added explanation about the video.

[Luigi Gorgonzola]

:thumbup:

[WildBillKelsoe]

Don't forget to pray that the fast-jet jockey hunting you forgot to set his scenes to low.....:P

 

I guess so. :smartass:

[Shein]

land and get out of the cockpit

 

:megalol: