F-15 is not a hangar queen

[Frostie]

Why is it becoming a grind in servers against F-15's?

About 70-80%** of seasoned F-15 pilots spend most of their time in servers camping over their own SAMs, what is it with these guys do they really think having good stats makes them a good pilot. You join a server to try and have some A2A 1 on 1 only to find you've got to try and dodge Tor's, Buk's etc. just to get them to engage you.

You guys are making this very boring.

 

There is no greater sight in FC at the moment than a server full of Serbs, at least then I know i'm in for some action. ;)

 

**not an accurate figure, just purely based on my level of wtf

Edited March 17, 2012 by Frostie

[Vekkinho]

I told you, this slowly turns into Streetfighter session...

[joey45]

Thats where you need the SEAD guys and gurls..

[Exorcet]

To be honest, 99% of the time I fly the F-15, I end up fighting over enemy SAM's. This happens especially when the server population is low.

 

I guess it's a combination of not really having an objective, bases being so close together, and the small numbers making it such that if one guy gets the advantage and forces the other back, you will naturally end up at the runner's SAM site.

 

I just see it as more of a challenge though.

[Grimes]

Why can't yall have a mission where F-15s are only on one side and its understood that their team is outnumbered?

[Exorcet]

I think that's how the 51st does it (and I'm thankful for that). They certainly do limit F-15's to the blue side, but I'm not sure if blue has less numbers over all.

 

I would like more asymmetry in missions though, perhaps only blue side has attack aircraft and must penetrate red air defense and radar network (though A-10's probably won't last when there is a serious enemy fighter presence in the air).

[mvsgas]

I don't understand the tittle.

Hangar Queen:

14.22.2.1. A Hangar Queen is a unit-possessed aircraft that has not flown for at least 30 calendar days.

 

Air Force Instruction 21-101

 

Like the F-22, all of them, a couple of months ago. :D

[RIPTIDE]

You join a server to try and have some A2A 1 on 1 only to find you've got to try and dodge Tor's, Buk's etc. just to get them to engage you.

Sounds like Greed. :D

[159th_Viper]

Where are the T-Toads tasked to eliminate the SAM threats? Mission-design fail or lack of Toadies to pilot the Toads?

 

Gawd how I miss those Red Hammer Air-to-Ground server missions :)

Edited March 17, 2012 by 159th_Viper

[Vekkinho]

I rememeber a friend of mine few years ago that was totally hooked on ArmA and he was MPing for like 10 hours a day. He'd used to hide in the bushes or some virtual vegetation and each time he'd raise his head he'd got one between horns...

 

He moved 10 feet after few months of action. Same's with Eagle pilots...

[Snoopy]

I don't understand the tittle.

Hangar Queen:

 

 

Air Force Instruction 21-101

 

Like the F-22, all of them, a couple of months ago. :D

 

LOL....and I read they still don't know what was messing up the O2....

[Vekkinho]

LOL....and I read they still don't know what was messing up the O2....

 

Presence of Pilot is the main problem. No pilot no need for O2.

[Falcon_S]

Why is it becoming a grind in servers against F-15's?

About 70-80%** of seasoned F-15 pilots spend most of their time in servers camping over their own SAMs, what is it with these guys do they really think having good stats makes them a good pilot. You join a server to try and have some A2A 1 on 1 only to find you've got to try and dodge Tor's, Buk's etc. just to get them to engage you.

You guys are making this very boring.

 

There is no greater sight in FC at the moment than a server full of Serbs, at least then I know i'm in for some action. ;)

 

**not an accurate figure, just purely based on my level of wtf

 

Yes, false stats is main problem, i think. Because of false statistics or because prevent hurt his ego pilots began to hide behind false names. Some pilots join in game trough proxy with false callsign, some of them are in two squads in same time with two different callsigns + they are lone wolfs sometimes and have one more callsign for that hunting... This is crazy. The same reason is for hiding under SAM`s umbrella also. Because of these things no longer close fights.

 

Second reason for this is AIM120 wich is gift (from ED with love) for these f15c pilots. They use only TWS and many of them don`t wait pitbull because AIM120 will finish job anyway - so why to go in short range risk (run or stats will be very bad).

 

Gameplay in FC 1.12 was better and with FC2 we are lost chance for dog fights. Now in FC2 we have only uncontrolled crowd of active missiles and all that aces waiting chat msg to see what is the result while they run and run... and dont look back. If result is nothing they will repeat this every time until they make some kill finally. This is FC 2.0 - and yes, very boring.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Falcon_S

[RIPTIDE]

Yes, false stats is main problem, i think. Because of false statistics or because prevent hurt his ego pilots began to hide behind false names. Some pilots join in game trough proxy with false callsign, some of them are in two squads in same time with two different callsigns + they are lone wolfs sometimes and have one more callsign for that hunting... This is crazy.

Same thing happened when FC2.0 came out. Names just disappeared and new ones appeared. LOL I've pretty much established for myself that many pilots were simply looking at the dot in the sky. When FC2.0 came they realised how sh1t they were when the dot suddenly wasn't there.

 

Lots of whining about F-15C but if you take a look, many of the prominent F-15C pilots k/d ratio actually declined after FC2.0 release. Why? Because they were all dot chasing. ;) INdeed a lot of prominent players of all airframes decreased in performance because of no dots anymore.

[Sanch0]

I see it's time for my SPAMRAAMS You can't hide :D

[GGTharos]

+1 dot-hunters-b-gone.

 

Same thing happened when FC2.0 came out. Names just disappeared and new ones appeared. LOL I've pretty much established for myself that many pilots were simply looking at the dot in the sky. When FC2.0 came they realised how sh1t they were when the dot suddenly wasn't there.

 

There's a lot of whining about F-15C pilots because:

1) No more dot-hunting

2) People might not be dumb enough to fly straight into the moutains where they're being 'hunted' by lawnmowers.

3) Loads of whining because you can't just dodge a missile with a barrel roll any longer and just keep flying at your target.

4) More whining because you can't just fly at 10m altitude and keep flying straight at your target while ignoring his missiles

5) Generally, more whining because missiles must now be respected.

 

Lots of whining about F-15C but if you take a look, many of the prominent F-15C pilots k/d ratio actually declined after FC2.0 release. Why? Because they were all dot chasing. ;) INdeed a lot of prominent players of all airframes decreased in performance because of no dots anymore.

[GGTharos]

Second reason for this is AIM120 wich is gift (from ED with love) for these f15c pilots.

 

BS. R-77's and R-27's were tweaked and became more dangerous also.

 

They use only TWS

 

Why wouldn't they?

 

and many of them don`t wait pitbull because AIM120 will finish job anyway - so why to go in short range risk (run or stats will be very bad).

 

So you're whining about how realistically, an F-15 pilot wouldn't want to fly into a dogfight where the Su-27 is superior, instead of using his BVR capability where the F-15 is superior? Maybe you should fly Su-27 vs Su-27 only if you don't want DACT :)

 

Gameplay in FC 1.12 was better and with FC2 we are lost chance for dog fights.

 

Also BS. You just have to know how to force the fight into the merge - granted, if your opponent has better technique, you'll never get there, but it isn't impossible.

 

Now in FC2 we have only uncontrolled crowd of active missiles and all that aces waiting chat msg to see what is the result while they run and run... and dont look back.

 

I'm waiting for you to explain how 'red bird' pilots with R-77's onboard are different :D

[Frostie]

 

There's a lot of whining about F-15C pilots because:

1) No more dot-hunting

2) People might not be dumb enough to fly straight into the moutains where they're being 'hunted' by lawnmowers.

3) Loads of whining because you can't just dodge a missile with a barrel roll any longer and just keep flying at your target.

4) More whining because you can't just fly at 10m altitude and keep flying straight at your target while ignoring his missiles

5) Generally, more whining because missiles must now be respected.

Have you flown on any servers lately? If it's Russian only hardware or a packed serve it's a ball of fun, but when it's down to 6,7 players left in the server and the enemy is flying F-15's they just don't come out to play, choosing to hang around their SAMs waiting for guys to come to them because lets face it most people don't have all day to wait for a face off that ain't coming.

 

I love nothing more than facing F-15's, the more the merrier, Pilotasso is one of the most enjoyable F-15 pilots to face. But when you spend the best part of half an hour patrolling past the mid point in the battle arena with still no bandits close to you it gets tiresome. Lets not hide the fact here that this is purely stat based.

[Boberro]

Same thing happened when FC2.0 came out. Names just disappeared and new ones appeared. LOL I've pretty much established for myself that many pilots were simply looking at the dot in the sky. When FC2.0 came they realised how sh1t they were when the dot suddenly wasn't there.

 

Lots of whining about F-15C but if you take a look, many of the prominent F-15C pilots k/d ratio actually declined after FC2.0 release. Why? Because they were all dot chasing. ;) INdeed a lot of prominent players of all airframes decreased in performance because of no dots anymore.

 

I remember other nice feature, but for Frogs. It was really funny flying low - let's say up to 12 meters - and sweeping Shkval around. At the background of the sky plane was easily visible and lockable.

Enemy pilot clearly saw you on his own radar and it was really funny seeing his missiles firing... first, second, third... while you fire 2 Vikhrs and boom :D He's dead.

But that was fight against ground and mostly successful if there were no other planes around at your six.

[Speed]

Lets not hide the fact here that this is purely stat based.

I'm no FC2 pilot, but the reason I gave up flying on public servers long ago with the Ka-50 is that no air-to-air FC2 pilots had the slightest interest in doing the mission. They all just wanted to air-quake all day long. This does spoil the fun. When you have no objective you're working towards, it just becomes an aerial deathmatch game. Deathmatch games got mostly swept under the rug like over 10 years ago- cooperative, team-based games are just so much more fun.

 

Is part of the problem the stats themselves? Perhaps find a way to abolish them. For one, you can ask server admins to disable events (I do believe this an option in FC2 as well), and then you won't see the XXXX killed XXXX with XXXX messages on the screen.

 

Another thing, perhaps you could try to take an active role in improving the game. Not everyone has to be a computer programmer to do this. You can make missions that promote better teamwork. You could formulate an improved stat system that rewards players for working together rather than just being lone wolves, and then try to "sell" your idea to a modder/programmer who could implement it.

 

One idea I can think of right of is perhaps you start with some missions that have more team-based objectives. They are missions that last a limited time, after which, a side is judged the winner.

 

Now, you have a stats mod that keeps track of which side wins, and who flew on each side. "Teamwork" points are awarded to the side that wins (perhaps a small number could be allocated to the losers as well).

 

Furthermore, since missions and games are unbalanced the stats mod tracks each mission, and keeps tally on how often red wins, and how often blue wins- and maybe even how long it takes. There could even be various levels of win. The teamwork points become scaled so that that, for example, if blue wins a mission 70% of the time, then if blue wins, they only get 0.3 as many teamwork points as if red had won. So you get more points for winning when your side is at a disadvantage.

 

Additionally, it's a simple thing to keep track of the history of who was connected to the server and flying. If the mission lasted 2 hours, then someone who was in the mission for only the first hour and then logged out will still get 1/2 of the teamwork points awarded for that mission.

 

With a more detailed Lua implementation, you could even design objectives where you are awarded more teamwork points for getting kills in/near. And don't ever award teamwork points directly to individual players- then those people will just become kill-hogs, and teamwork will go out the window. If someone shoots down a Su-25 attacking friendly ground troops that are critical to mission success, then every pilot within a 60 mile radius is award teamwork points of the kill. In other words- you're rewarded for DOING THE DAMN MISSION.

 

Anyway, with the battle commander coming, we may see a huge uptick in cooperative gameplay in DCS and FC3. Scenarios were red side gets a force of tanks, fighters, and helos, and blue side gets a force of tanks, fighters, and helos, and each side has an objective to win the mission- those kind of scenarios will be easy to make.

 

Anyway, maybe I'm stepping into an area I know little about, and speaking when I have no right, but the the comments on this thread seem to indicate that others are noticing the same thing that I did- that most of the FC2 pilots on public servers just cared about their stats, and little else. I just wanted to point out... there are probably solutions to this problem. When you have a stats system that tracks kills, people are just going to care about kills, and that's going to kill the cooperative team-based, objective-oriented gameplay that is central to many games today (and that most people find to be a lot more fun than pointless death match games). Intelligent mission design, perhaps a new stats system, and the coming battle commander module should help with that.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Speed

[Falcon_S]

BS. R-77's and R-27's were tweaked and became more dangerous also.

 

Sorry but: colorful lie. In practice is different. This is not topic and pls stop here.

 

Why wouldn't they?

 

I have nothing against it. But that is a little too much? Here we talk about boring in game and this is one of reasons for that.

 

So you're whining about how realistically, an F-15 pilot wouldn't want to fly into a dogfight where the Su-27 is superior, instead of using his BVR capability where the F-15 is superior? Maybe you should fly Su-27 vs Su-27 only if you don't want DACT :)

 

I talk about revolutionary MADDOG FIX in FC 2.0 - nothing has fixed, maddogs still are here and SPAMRAAMS find us very well. Here we talk about boring in game and this is one more of reasons for that.

 

Also BS. You just have to know how to force the fight into the merge - granted, if your opponent has better technique, you'll never get there, but it isn't impossible.

 

This is the main piont of this topic - Most of pilots only run, hide, camping, calculating K/D ratio..., no more fights and no more fun. This is the FC 2.0 and most pilots are go out because game is boring.

 

I'm waiting for you to explain how 'red bird' pilots with R-77's onboard are different :D

 

Most of red pilots with r-77 do same. About that we talking here. And when i talk about active missiles i talk about r-77 and AIM120. In FC 1.12 we have chance to avoid it sometimes and go into the merge = fun. But in FC 2.0 every evading of active missiles is stupid action. All know that and that is FC2.0. No more fun - only boring flights without honorable fight.

 

Lets not hide the fact here that this is purely stat based.

 

Totaly agree with Frostie.

[GGTharos]

Sorry but: colorful lie. In practice is different. This is not topic and pls stop here.

 

It's definitely part of the topic, you complained about it. It isn't a lie, and it is and was in fact statistically proven during testing. I realise you probably though it went something like:

 

'Ok US comrades, we give you uber armaam now!'

'WHEEE_HA!'

 

... but that's not how things went at all, so I'll ask you to keep the particular lie you're spreading to yourself.

 

 

I have nothing against it. But that is a little too much? Here we talk about boring in game and this is one of reasons for that.

 

Why? Real tactics against MiG-29 for example include to just turn around and let the MiGs run out of fuel. If you just want dogfights, why not go to a gunzo server?

 

I talk about revolutionary MADDOG FIX in FC 2.0 - nothing has fixed, maddogs still are here and SPAMRAAMS find us very well. Here we talk about boring in game and this is one more of reasons for that.

 

There was nothing revolutionary about it. Maddogs were dealt with quite well. If you're in the narrow scan zone they will find you, if you're not, they will not. What you're talking about is cheapshots (missiles launched with lock but abandoned before pitbull), and while there are known problems with this, why do you think you'd be able to evade a better modeled missile that was cheap-shotted? You -can-, but there's no such guarantee. The current implementation of what happens in a cheapshot is broken in some many ways that it almost makes up for itself (but don't get me wrong ... I'd love to see both the missile and radar issues assotiated with it fixed).

 

 

This is the main piont of this topic - Most of pilots only run, hide, camping, calculating K/D ratio..., no more fights and no more fun. This is the FC 2.0 and most pilots are go out because game is boring.

 

Sure, I don't disagree. Having a goal other than 'shoot him down even if I go down too' tends to make you fight a little smarter. That might end up boring. Again, the fix for this is what exactly? Removal of stats? But 'stats' were supposed to make servers more popular I thought.

Finally, I also thought that people wanted 'more realistic gameplay' instead of 'airquake' but that ended up being untrue also, and most servers seem to cater to airquake since it's more popular. This isn't an F-15/AMRAAM/MiG/R-77 problem, this is a philosophy problem.

 

 

Most of red pilots with r-77 do same. About that we talking here. And when i talk about active missiles i talk about r-77 and AIM120. In FC 1.12 we have chance to avoid it sometimes and go into the merge = fun. But in FC 2.0 every evading of active missiles is stupid action. All know that and that is FC2.0. No more fun - only boring flights without honorable fight.

 

In FC2 you can definitely evade active missiles and go to the merge, but your room for error, and 'mad sk1llz' just isn't very wide. It becomes 'scientific murder' instead of 'who can barrel roll better'. Do it right or get shot down. You accuse others of being boring, but you don't evade actives yourself - it's not that hard to do, just notch'em. Certainly you have no guarantee of success, but that's how it's supposed to be.

 

 

Totaly agree with Frostie.

 

 

So remove stats?

[Falcon_S]

[Pilotasso]

Aw c'mon, now your guys complaining about players under SAM's cover. It has always been a problem specially in surface to air defense saturated maps and low server population. Itll be easy to find anyone in the air and they will be likely to use the support from the ground rather than other pilots. Thus explaining their keen interest in staying close to SAM's. I have always said it, to remove all SAM's but the strictly necessary units for basic defense, because having SAM's firing over your shoulder everywhere on the map isnt realistic. So Why now? why this timing for the complaint?

 

 

On another note, SPAMRAAMs and omniscient missiles, people seem to be suffering from short memories, because not too long ago in FC1 it was the plate of the day. So I ask again, why complain now?

 

I think some of the messages contents here are hugely prejudicious against the virtual pilots not flying the same aircraft as the authors of those messages, not to mention over generalization. Maybe you need to practice more or/and change tactics from FC1. I think thats all theres to it.

 

 

EDIT: About the stats. I dont believe they will be high for any pilot resorting from SAM babysiting for more than a few sessions because after many sessions the truth of true skill will always prevail, and more often than not they will stabilise at a much lower values. A fix? use longer stat intervals than monthly results. Trimester, quarter or semester or yearly long stats should fix this even without any changes in the logic, only how results are presented. ;)

Edited March 17, 2012 by Pilotasso

[mikoyan]

I think that the problem is more about cooperating. Sometimes I go online using the frog to kill the sams; that way our fighters can fight freely, but no body seems to care about keeping my frog clear of f-15s or sus or migs. It sucks to fly for an our to get killed by an several aim-120s of an eagle. So after that naturally I get pissed and grab a su-27 or mig like most of us do; perpetuating the air quake.

 

People need to keep their own roles straight for example:

 

-If there is an awacs; some fighters must escort it and make sure it don't get shoot down.

 

-If there is attack airplanes in the group; they should have escort assigned to them.

 

-Flight pats should be followed by pilots; assign in patrol routes.

 

-More ai aircraft to be protected would be cool; ore something like a virtual airspace; with ground radars

 

- could recognizing missions be implemented? instead of vomiting all the info on the preflight?

 

I'm totally in favor of keeping the sams systems; that way it helps reduce the air quakes by keeping spammers in the lookout of ground treats; and also because it is more realistic.

 

A centric implementation of sams could be cool too; like real sam emplacements. (maybe it was already implemented I'm not sure).