SA-8 Unevadable third missile?

[Impact]

So I finally came to the point of training against SAMs. I heard that the easiest way to train approaches is to make a mission with a single SA-8.

 

I did that, started it, and after nailing the evasion tactic (thought so at least), I noticed that doing a Split-S while jamming and chaffing will work only the first 2 times, the third will hit unless you out curve the missile (nearly impossible with an A10c).

 

Tacview files are here.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ut6yh6

 

Can you help me improve my technique?

[jacksos101]

Perhaps the SAM launcher has a '3rd time lucky' feature implemented by the manufacturer :smilewink:

[Impact]

Or maybe the A10 only has 3 lives? Time to introduce the Tomcat with 9 lives! How many lives a Hornet might have... (I want DCS: F/A18!)

[VFA41_Lion]

Try putting it on your 9 or 3'o'clock sides and head for the ground, while also jamming and dropping chaff. And look for some terrain to hide behind.

[Yellonet]

Yes, try making the SAM fire at its max range, while you're flying perpendicular to it, it's always good if you see the launch and the missile, then head away in a dive to bleed energy from the missile, after a little while start climbing, and if you time it right the missile will not have enough energy left to follow you.

[ralfidude]

Gents, I think he means that the third is imprevious if i understand that correctly.

 

 

If he dodges the first two, he must be doing something right.

[Yellonet]

At what distance are you from the launcher?

[112th_Rossi]

Ran out of flares?

[Eddie]

So I finally came to the point of training against SAMs. I heard that the easiest way to train approaches is to make a mission with a single SA-8.

 

I did that, started it, and after nailing the evasion tactic (thought so at least), I noticed that doing a Split-S while jamming and chaffing will work only the first 2 times, the third will hit unless you out curve the missile (nearly impossible with an A10c).

 

Can you help me improve my technique?

 

You trashed the first 2 missiles with chaff & ECM before you even performed the split s. Watch your own tac view file. The split s was totally pointless, and nothing more than a placebo that gave you a warm fuzzy feeling.

 

In that situation the split s is unquestionably the wrong manoeuvre. Take a look at your tacview playback of the 3rd missile shot, your chaff/ECM fail to spoof the missile (it happens), and by pulling the split s you make the missile job easier by descending. At the point the missiles motor is still burning and it's travelling at over 1000knots (you're at just over 300), and even at that speed it only has to pull 6-7G in over to maintain its intercept course (6-7G is nothing for a missile).

 

The split s is a useful manoeuvre, but only if the threat is at 12 o'clock (or at least in the front hemisphere) and is firing on you from near RMAX. It's not the split s itself that defeats the missile, but rather the heading reversal resulting in you simply being further away than the missile can fly. A simple 180 degree turn would have the same effect, but it's slower, which is why the splt s (which also allows you to gain energy) is preferable.

 

As you already had the missile on the beam, the missile will have already been fired at relatively close range so you won't be able to outrun the missile by performing a heading reversal or even a dive (the Hog is just too slow) so your only options are to defeat the missile with either ECM, consumables (chaff) or manoeuvring.

 

As you found out in that situation ECM and chaff were ineffective, most likely because you were simply too close to the launch vehicles (and therefore guidance RADAR), meaning that you were probably already inside the ECM burn through range and as with flares the closer you are to the launch point the less effective chaff will be.

 

After exhausting the passive defence options, the only option remaining is moving the jet. At that range, slow manoeuvres won't help so you'll need to perform an aggressive out of plane manoeuvre. The best bet would most likely have been an orthogonal roll in to the missile combined with chaff and crossed fingers & toes.

 

Missile evasion is not an exact science, there is no "do this and you'll defeat the missile" manoeuvre, there are just too many variables. And if you get too close, nothing is going to help you.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Eddie

[Speed]

The split s was totally pointless, and nothing more than a placebo that gave you a warm fuzzy feeling.

 

In that situation the split s is unquestionably the wrong manoeuvre. Take a look at your tacview playback of the 3rd missile shot, your chaff/ECM fail to spoof the missile (it happens), and by pulling the split s you make the missile job easier by descending...

 

So while you defeated the first two missiles, I think we can all look to this as an example of what not to do.

:cry:

 

Stop it Eddie, you're breaking his heart! :D

[159th_Viper]

Can you help me improve my technique?

 

Why did the SAM launch at your aircraft?

 

Identify and neutralise, alternatively avoid. There exists no good reason for you getting shot down by a short-range radar-guided system, especially not an Osa. If you however intentionally picked a fight, well then, you are going to get spanked :)

[Speed]

Why did the SAM launch at your aircraft?

 

Identify and neutralise, alternatively avoid. There exists no good reason for you getting shot down by a short-range radar-guided system, especially not an Osa. If you however intentionally picked a fight, well then, you are going to get spanked :)

 

Well... I disagree.

 

Under normal circumstances where the SA-8 is blasting its search radar out there and screaming "HERE I AM!", maybe you are right. But there do exist good and realistic reasons for getting shot down by an SA-8. It's just that mission designers are usually "kind" enough not to use them.

 

For example, set up a search/EW radar. Set up some triggers. Default the SA-8's alarm state to green (radar off).

 

If the A-10 flies within range of the SA-8, and the search radar is alive, then you set the SA-8 to alarm state red. It suddenly comes on, and the A-10 that is flying right over it- good bye!

 

You could further improve the realism by using scripts and requiring that the A-10 be in line of sight to the search radar for this to happen.

[159th_Viper]

Under normal circumstances where the SA-8 is blasting its search radar out there and screaming "HERE I AM!", maybe you are right..........It's just that mission designers are usually "kind" enough not to use them....

 

Which was exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

It is common cause that SAM systems are, in the absence of intelligent mission-design, suicidal and easy targets. If you are getting shot down then you should evaluate why and change your Modus Operandi.

 

If you are however blessed enough to stumble upon a mission with an integrated air defence network, well then, best you get measured up before you hit the 'Fly' button. It's a one-way ticket in the A-10, especially against the latest SHORAD units.

[Speed]

Which was exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

It is common cause that SAM systems are, in the absence of intelligent mission-design, suicidal and easy targets. If you are getting shot down then you should evaluate why and change your Modus Operandi.

 

If you are however blessed enough to stumble upon a mission with an integrated air defence network, well then, best you get measured up before you hit the 'Fly' button. It's a one-way ticket in the A-10, especially against the latest SHORAD units.

 

Viper, I don't think it's lack of "intelligent mission design". One reason I think integrated AD networks just aren't used because missions are supposed to be fun. You're not "blessed" if you find a mission that uses an integrated AD network, you're just dead. And that's not fun.

 

That said, I was thinking about adding a bit of integrated AD into a mission I'm slowly working on. It would be there more to keep people on their toes.

 

Also, make the SAMs drive around to a different location after they fire off a few shots. They call them "mobile" SAMs for a reason.

 

Anyway, if this was actually a SEAD aircraft, then it would make a lot more sense to create integrated AD networks. These should be mostly attritted by the time the A-10s are sent in.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Speed

[skypirate]

How about flying the tree tops and use the terrain masking (as the Hog was originally designed to do)?

[159th_Viper]

How about flying the tree tops and use the terrain masking (as the Hog was originally designed to do)?

 

Terrain masking?

 

Yes, valid tactic if you are fortunate enough to have the time to mask while faced with an incoming threat. You are however going to have to pop up from behind said cover and that's when you will get smacked.

 

Low-level flying?

 

Sure you can do so, but would you really want to? In reality I don't think that sustained flight at below 10m AGL in order to escape the SAM system's engagement parameters is at all feasible, especially in a high-threat environment.

 

Immortality In-SIM however affords us the luxury of doing just that. One might consider this the SAM's way of 'Throwing the Hog a Bone' as it is about the only way that you will get near a SAM in the Hog without you getting your A$$ handed to you, with interest. Fun? Sure. Realistic? Not so much.

[ralfidude]

Yep.... Sams just aint fun when you got nowhere to hide behind and no way to get around or above it... I learned that the hard way...

 

after 3:00

 

[Impact]

You trashed the first 2 missiles with chaff & ECM before you even performed the split s. Watch your own tac view file. The split s was totally pointless, and nothing more than a placebo that gave you a warm fuzzy feeling.

 

In that situation the split s is unquestionably the wrong manoeuvre. Take a look at your tacview playback of the 3rd missile shot, your chaff/ECM fail to spoof the missile (it happens), and by pulling the split s you make the missile job easier by descending. At the point the missiles motor is still burning and it's travelling at over 1000knots (you're at just over 300), and even at that speed it only has to pull 6-7G in over to maintain its intercept course (6-7G is nothing for a missile).

 

The split s is a useful manoeuvre, but only if the threat is at 12 o'clock (or at least in the front hemisphere) and is firing on you from near RMAX. It's not the split s itself that defeats the missile, but rather the heading reversal resulting in you simply being further away than the missile can fly. A simple 180 degree turn would have the same effect, but it's slower, which is why the splt s (which also allows you to gain energy) is preferable.

 

As you already had the missile on the beam, the missile will have already been fired at relatively close range so you won't be able to outrun the missile by performing a heading reversal or even a dive (the Hog is just too slow) so your only options are to defeat the missile with either ECM, consumables (chaff) or manoeuvring.

 

As you found out in that situation ECM and chaff were ineffective, most likely because you were simply too close to the launch vehicles (and therefore guidance RADAR), meaning that you were probably already inside the ECM burn through range and as with flares the closer you are to the launch point the less effective chaff will be.

 

After exhausting the passive defence options, the only option remaining is moving the jet. At that range, slow manoeuvres won't help so you'll need to perform an aggressive out of plane manoeuvre. The best bet would most likely have been an orthogonal roll in to the missile combined with chaff and crossed fingers & toes.

 

Missile evasion is not an exact science, there is no "do this and you'll defeat the missile" manoeuvre, there are just too many variables. And if you get too close, nothing is going to help you.

 

 

:cry:

 

Stop it Eddie, you're breaking his heart! :D

 

Eddie can't break my heart anymore, some girl already did :)

 

Not getting into the range of the SAMs is the best way to avoid it of course. Sending in SEAD craft to do their job is the way to go.

 

I have flown a few flight sims with fastmovers, and they all have the ability to dodge missiles with their energy.

 

I just train for the worst possible situation, that is when the SAM is already in the air.

 

So Split S are pretty much a waste of energy. Time for some barrel rolling.

[hitman]

Or maybe the A10 only has 3 lives? Time to introduce the Tomcat with 9 lives! How many lives a Hornet might have... (I want DCS: F/A18!)

You mean the Tomcat, where you just look at it funny and it explodes? Yeah it definitely needs 9 lives for that..