Syria shoots down Turkish F-4

[Pilotasso]

As more information comes out, it looks like it was a recce mission that took off from central Turkey, flew to Cyprus, the turned east and established an orbit in international waters off the coast as -Pikey put together. It must have been tracked for a good while and very accurately because (speculatively) as soon as it strayed just about a kilometer into Syrian airspace, it was immediately and decisively engaged. One thing I can say, things are tense in the region tonight, especially with Turkey talking about an appropriate response. This is just the type of incident that sparks wars.

 

Edit: Here's more on the Russian facility which what I thought to be a prize base lol: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/19/world/europe/russian-warships-said-to-be-going-to-naval-base-in-syria.html.

 

NATO will pressure turkey not to engage in a major conflict at the first provocation. Things are tense with iran as it is (it has been for years and might culminate in an "event" this year). If there is more than one occurence, then everything is possible like turkey going at it alone.

[Boberro]

Well, military aircraft violating borders isn't exactly an unusual ocurance. If I remember right Sweden and Finland violate each other's airspace like 20 times each per year - with armed aircraft. Fighters are just so fast nowadays it doesn't reuire much of a mistake to suddenly find yourself on the wrong side of a border.

 

Frankly I don't know what Sweden uses armed AirForce for... Scandinavian countries live rather peacefully and silently :P

Great neighbour Norway and second one Finland. Nothing more than be happy ^^

[lobo]

Newly-supplied Russian Pantsyr-1 anti-air missile used to down Turkish warplane.

 

Syria Friday shot down the Turkish Super Phantom jet with the sophisticated self-propelled medium range anti-air Pantsur-1 missile recently supplied by Russia. Short of time to master the improved missile system, the Syrian crews would have called on their Russian instructors to help launch them.

 

http://www.debka.com/article/22112/

Edited June 23, 2012 by lobo**

[eurofor]

Newly-supplied Russian Pantsyr-1 anti-air missile used to down Turkish warplane.

 

Syria Friday shot down the Turkish Super Phantom jet with the sophisticated self-propelled medium range anti-air Pantsur-1 missile recently supplied by Russia. Short of time to master the improved missile system, the Syrian crews would have called on their Russian instructors to help launch them.

 

http://www.debka.com/article/22112/

 

They got a live demonstration of their new toys. Probably looking for the slightest opportunity to do so. :D

[Pikey]

...Which makes much more sense than the AAA story. And gives slightly more credibility to the flight path. So you have an F4 up and down the coast, turns back again for a second close look and is shot down by SA-22.

 

The Turks will struggle to validate their actions as far as I can see, looks like they were baiting coastline defences for ELINT.

[Alfa]

Another possibility is that it was a genuine recce mission by the TuAF in the border region. That would be unsurprising, given the tense situation and the Syrian refugees pooring into Turkey.

 

Yes I think so too. But on the other hand, given the talk of possible military intervention, its perhaps also unsurprising that the Syrians would shoot it down - in preparation of such an intervention the very first thing to do would be to map out and assess the strength of airdefences.

 

Since a recce flight is carefully planned and meticulously executed, it would mean they would have underestimated the Syrian AD. Maybe they ran into a Pantsir system?

 

Possibly yes.

[hassata]

Debka must be taken with a grain or two of salt.

[Sierra99]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/06/20126221721460173.html

 

 

Very bad....

 

Yeah... I'd never cite aljazeera as a reputable news source...

 

:lol:

 

Here this is much more reliable!

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/06/23/turkey-vows-necessary-action-after-syria-admits-shooting-down-military-plane/

 

:D

 

Gadgets

[Kuky]

^^^

I hope you're being sarcastic

Edited June 24, 2012 by Kuky

[Zakatak]

Yeah... I'd never cite aljazeera as a reputable news source...

 

:lol:

 

Here this is much more reliable!

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/06/23/turkey-vows-necessary-action-after-syria-admits-shooting-down-military-plane/

 

:D

 

Gadgets

 

LMAO, you're a funny guy! :megalol:

[Alfa]

Debka must be taken with a grain or two of salt.

 

Yeah looks like it.

 

Reading that article they first claim that it was a Pantsir that downed the Turkish plane and, since Syria only got these in recent weeks, that they would have relied on Russian instructors to help them carry out the engagement. Then a litte further down the article they claim that Pantsirs defended the airspace over the Syrian reactor that Israel bombed 5 years ago.... :huh: .

[eurofor]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18568412

 

Turkey's foreign minister has said the fighter jet shot down by Syrian air defence forces on Friday was in international airspace when it was hit.

 

Not sure how much of a difference this makes. Perhaps it was fired upon inside Syrian airspace but was hit outside.

Edited June 24, 2012 by eurofor

[Alfa]

Not sure how much of a difference this makes. Perhaps it was fired upon inside Syrian airspace but was hit outside.

 

Heh or maybe its just a classic example of one party saying the incident occured in international airspace and the other saying it didn't - each to justify their actions :) .

[Pikey]

According to international law, a country's airspace extends 12 nautical miles (22.2km) from its coastline, corresponding with its territorial waters.

 

And according to the map Syria provided it was well inside on a course perpendicular to the coastline heading inland, approaching at high speed after having already run up the coastline for several minutes and over 50 miles over tourist beaches and harbours.

 

The common argument being presented by Turkey is that fast jets will be over borders for short amounts of time. It was there long enough to get shot down.

 

After the 50mile coastland run, turning in bound at high speed over the glassy Mediterranean would have lit the doppler return up pretty hard.

 

The credibility of the map would always be in doubt but to me the one thing that corroborates the story is that they are searching for the jet in the same place that their map says it went down. And thus it adds little to falsify the preceeding minutes, because ultimately they are irrelevant.

 

You have to remember there is a military air Force base less than 40km from the shooting and the F4 was within 10 degrees of heading right for it. At high speed thats a few minutes. And in between is a city.

 

There simply wouldn't be a combined nation search in the area if the plane didnt go down there. And that area is in Syrian waters. There's footage of gunboats, eyewitnesses from the towns and journalists on site.

 

Lastly, there's comments about pilot's straying, or getting lost, or error/malfunction. I think you can safely say that if you asked an average person on the street would they fly a jet over or close to the Syrian border if they had a choice or were in doubt, the answer would be, "No". Which only leaves deliberate action. And we can assume very safely that there is less random nature to a military jet's border patrol than your average walk down the street.

 

The notion it was AAA is frankly unworkable, that jet was hit out to sea. Barring gunboats i'd say a missile system overlooking the west coast, there are plenty of superb sites with good elevation and 360 views. And the Med is not somewhere you can hide easily.

[Azrayen]

It must have been tracked for a good while and very accurately because (speculatively) as soon as it strayed just about a kilometer into Syrian airspace, it was immediately and decisively engaged.

 

Not according to the turkish side radar tapes:

http://webtv.hurriyet.com.tr/2/34134/20834778/1/turk-ucaginin-dusurulmesini-grafiklerle-anlatti.aspx

 

(video in turk, but english captions on slides)

[winz]

You're speculating and *cough* politics...

[Pikey]

After sifting through an extraordinary amount of internet about this the only stories that are the same are the ones where news agencies have copied other news agencies. Which makes it impossible to even have a half decent speculation anymore.

 

Anyway Turkey, are meeting NATO tomorrow on Article 4. Given the situation in Syria, this incident and the effect on a NATO partner is pretty significant, although I doubt we will even get the truth out.

[104th_Cobra]

As Turkey started warmongering we can expect something analogous to the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. Only Russia opposition to an attack and the Iran situation will prevent an escalate. Meanwhile, with all the disinformation we can be in the face of a ruse of war.

 

The Debka article was colored, as usual, but always give another meaning to what we know.

[VAOZoky]

As Turkey started warmongering we can expect something analogous to the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.

 

Is that the one where US Navy lied of being under attack so that congress will give rights to president to start a war?

[Ryback]

As Turkey started warmongering we can expect something analogous to the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. Only Russia opposition to an attack and the Iran situation will prevent an escalate. Meanwhile, with all the disinformation we can be in the face of a ruse of war.

 

The Debka article was colored, as usual, but always give another meaning to what we know.

 

How did you come to this conclusion i'm really wondering?

 

If a Turkey starts warmongering it should NOT call an emergency gathering of NATO.Instead can easily accidentally shoot the first Syrian jet who will enter to it's airspace.

 

Soon, radar track records from British airbase in Cyprus will be handed over. Then we will all be informed.

Only thing i should add: It was a test flight for the new radar system and the RF-4E was UNARMED,SINGLE and shot down 11 minutes after he left the Syrian airspace.

Warmongering? you are RIGHT.. About the country who does it? You are WRONG.

 

It's a sensitive subject, so please be careful what you are about to say, especially if you are misinformed.

[EtherealN]

Let's stick to discussing facts as they are relayed and not speculate about political motives. Thankyou.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I am sure NATO is very active in probing Syria's air defenses. SAM's and radar's locations, frequencies, sequence of turning the radars on and off, engagement sequences, you name it ...

 

Turkey is re-surging military and economical power and is flexing its muscles in the region. Turkey is hosting Syrian rebels as well as Syrian refugees. Turkey was hosting Syrian rebels meetings in Istanbul or was it in Ankara?

 

While we can all speculate about downed F-4 mission, one ting is for sure, Downed F-4 was on a military mission and, from what I know, did not ask for permission to enter Syrian airspace.

[Pikey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18584872

Not so much of an escalation but pretty clear warning that can be interpreted in a number of ways.

 

Same story from BBC still shows the original Syrian released flight path with the laughable sentence that reads, "Syria says its air defences engaged aircraft about 1km (0.5 nautical miles) from the coast and that it crashed into the sea 10km (5 nautical miles) west of Om al-Tuyour"

 

Presumably it was on full "backward afterburner".

 

Also mentioned again from the Turks that a CSAR plane was shot at. Not validated anywhere else.

 

I have to say, this is a hell of a hotspot. You've got a NATO member on the north of Syria, a country with a great deal of civil unrest, backed by Russia and China, the two countries effectively vetoing any United Nation military involvement. The country has world focus due to humanitarian issues and it's just shot down a military plane from it's neighbouring NATO allied country.

 

We all need to watch this space.

[xhaos]

I am reading on news that the flight was at 200feet, there are also youtube videos of the incident but I cant make out the airplane tough you can hear the AAA firing and the people pointing almost horizontally (presuming they show the plane) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zofoEWJWeJE

 

I hope the pilots are OK but what the hell were they doing flying such an aggressive route? showing off for themselves or showing off for Turkey?

[hassata]

Very low-does probing air defenses require such a profile in certain instances? That video looks suspect though.