A detailed guide to the View system in DCS A10C?

minimi66 · August 26, 2012

Hi,

Does anyone know of the existence/location of a detailed explanation of the entire "View" system in A-10C? I have searched both the Flight and GUI Manual but can find no explanation of how the less run of the mill view commands work? I've been playing around with them but many are obviously in some way context sensitive and only function in conjunction with another related view command?

I'm talking about such actions as saving Snap Cockpit Views i.e. if i wanted to save a custom zoomed in view of the EGI/AAP/CDU area (so i could map it to a keyboard/joystick command etc)

Save Cockpit Angles?

Return camera base?

Snap Views using the LWin NUMPAD keys combination?

The above is just a few examples, there are many other commands in the view sections of the A-10C DEFAULT KEY ASSIGNMENTS pdf document that are not IMHO easy to interpret without a bit more elaboration/explanation?

I should emphasise i am only really asking about the more unusual view commands? I am happy that F1 switches to Cockpit view etc etc :thumbup:

To pre-empt those who say get a TrackIR, i have one but TBH do not like using it, i prefer the old fashioned View hat on my TM Warthog or a keyboard command.

Any assistance most appreciated?

Cheers folks.

kylania · August 26, 2012

Here's a bookmark I had about snap views that might help.

Really you should look into getting a better profile for TrackIR, hat switch has nothing on it. Wags has a nice profile that feels totally natural and effortless that I've been using. Check his posts. :)

minimi66 · August 26, 2012

@ kylania

Hi, thanks very much, i will indeed have a look at Matt's TIR profile, maybe i am being too impatient with it?

Just out of interest, when using someone elses TIR profile does it matter if my own distance/height from Track Clip Pro to Camera is different from that of the person who created the original profile? I realise the manual states there is an ideal distance and height but would assume that it is slightly different for each individual user?

Many thanks indeed.

PeterP · August 26, 2012

@ kylania
Just out of interest, when using someone elses TIR profile does it matter if my own distance/height from Track Clip Pro to Camera is different from that of the person who created the original profile?

Yes - using the same profile at a different monitor and slightly changed camera position can be like night and day even for the same person.

I suggest you to create your own - and take full advantage of the profile editor .

This video will help you to get a idea what you might want to do.

Edited August 26, 2012 by PeterP

minimi66 · August 26, 2012

@PeterP,

Thanks very much, i will persevere and have a look at creating my own profile after looking at the vid.

Thanks.

Echo38 · August 26, 2012

Back when I used TrackIR, it took me a full month to become accustomed to it enough to be a threat in a dogfight. So, if you've just spent a few days trying to get the hang of it, yeah, you need to spend more time with it. The ease of use is grossly overstated by its marketing and by its fans; I never felt truly at home with it even after two years of solid, almost daily use. All this is irrelevant, however, to the O.P.--it would be nice for those of us who don't or can't use TrackIR to have a comprehensive explanation of some of the esoteric view commands.

Bushmanni · August 26, 2012

While it's true that you need to learn to use TIR and get used to it it's also very crucial to build your own profile that works for you. Good profile can make a difference like between day and night.

SharpeXB · August 26, 2012

Back when I used TrackIR, it took me a full month to become accustomed to it enough to be a threat in a dogfight. So, if you've just spent a few days trying to get the hang of it, yeah, you need to spend more time with it. The ease of use is grossly overstated by its marketing and by its fans; I never felt truly at home with it even after two years of solid, almost daily use. All this is irrelevant, however, to the O.P.--it would be nice for those of us who don't or can't use TrackIR to have a comprehensive explanation of some of the esoteric view commands.

Everyone has their preference and that's fine, I'm not arguing with that.

I don't understand how a Track IR requires practice to use though. You put it on, and you look around. Now keyboard commands and snapviews? Those would require more practice than a Track IR

159th_Viper · August 26, 2012

I don't understand how a Track IR requires practice to use though. You put it on, and you look around. Now keyboard commands and snapviews? Those would require more practice than a Track IR

Do you have TrackIr?

Man, I remember it took me a week or so to get used to it.........first couple of days I very nearly turfed it out of the window a good few times.

SharpeXB · August 26, 2012

Do you have TrackIr?

Man, I remember it took me a week or so to get used to it.........first couple of days I very nearly turfed it out of the window a good few times.

I just tried using it with ARMA2 and Iron Front. Now that takes some practice in an fps game but wow is it cool!

Echo38 · August 30, 2012

It takes practice because humans are not naturally accustomed to having to run the conversion. Turn your real head 3 degrees, and the game head turns 40 degrees. Regardless of what the exact ratio is, that isn't something that a human ever does outside of using TrackIR (turning one's head a small amount in order to turn one's pretend-head a large amount). This is why it requires learning.

TrackIR is instinctively confusing for people who are not intuitively excellent at mathematics, because "moving a limb a little bit to move it a lot" is completely unnatural and counter-intuitive. If you tried that with your legs instead of with your head, you'd be falling down all over the place for the first few weeks. So it goes, so to speak, for many new TrackIR users.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Echo38

cichlidfan · August 30, 2012

...it would be nice for those of us who don't or can't use TrackIR to have a comprehensive explanation of some of the esoteric view commands.

It would be nice, not to mention highly useful, to almost everyone.

Snap views, especially customized ones, are very handy even if you have TIR. Also, some explanation of the external views, and the logic behind their function (i.e. which airfield gets shown in what order) would be an excellent aid to everyone and a great boon to aspiring movie makers.

whitmore33 · August 31, 2012

Here's a bookmark I had about snap views price that might help.

Really you should look into getting a better profile for TrackIR, hat switch has nothing on it. Wags has a nice profile that feels totally natural and effortless that I've been using. Check his posts. :)

Oh thanks! this is actually helped so much...

I have few question but I think it would be better to ask it there...

Supersheep · August 31, 2012

Sorry, off-topic a bit:

TrackIR is instinctively confusing for people who are not intuitively excellent at mathematics

I disagree.

The reason is that there's a perfect feedback loop. While you do over-control, you see the error and can immediately correct it. If not and it proves uncontrollabe, the curves are wrong and can be flexibly tweaked in the NP software.

Personally, I use a small deadzone to relax my neck, "acceleration flanks" and max sensitivity of 10 (units of whatever) in the NP software (with this hatclip), making it look like -v- (sorry, don't want to create a graphic for this now, you get the point) in the menu.

I don't do a bit of maths to move my head, only keep the curve from the NP software in mind. It isn't that one should have to think about how to move the head to shift the view.

Super-

Echo38 · September 1, 2012

While you do over-control, you see the error and can immediately correct it.

One could say the same about maintaining straight and level flight in an aircraft--but that also takes a long time for a first-timer to learn. I believe that you have simply forgotten how it was to use TrackIR for the first time, just as many simmers forget how difficult it was to fly straight & level for the first time. (This phenomenon is almost universal, I've found--those who have extensive experience with training newbies are an exception due to said experience.)

I don't do a bit of maths to move my head, only keep the curve from the NP software in mind.

That's maths. You may not realize that you're doing it, because it's subconscious, but you are. People who are astoundingly bad at mathematics (like myself) have a much harder time with it than most, but many people who are "average" at maths will also struggle at first. I'll bet my second-best pair of socks that you don't have to spend more than a couple of seconds determining whether or not you've received the correct change at a counter. There are quite a few people like you, who profess to have never had any trouble with TrackIR, but there are also quite a few people who, like me, had a horrid learning experience with it.

As for curves, I've been told several times that they're they key to using TrackIR well, and it would seem to be the case, but I wrestled with the program for hours and tried all sorts of curve and dead zone combination, and nothing fixed the problems. Searched the forums, got advice, viewed graphs. No dice; as the two problems had overlapping zones, any fix for one of the two problems caused the other problem to worsen, and vice versa. Granted, this was TrackIR 3, and I'm told that later models improved the situation. But I was so disappointed that I never bought 4 or 5.

And the the NaturalPoint company reps were all, "You're having problems with the product you paid $120 bucks for? Well, pay us another $150 for a different one!" Err, no. That's not how it works. Their tech support was horrid--it was basically marketing disguised as tech support, because their advice to suffering TrackIR 3 users was so often "buy a TrackIR 4!"

In the end, TrackIR does give the user an advantage over the non-TrackIR user, but it isn't natural & intuitive as claimed, at least not for us poor saps who don't intuitively dig conversions and stuff. Intuitively meaning, not ever having to think about it--even while new to it. (Now before anyone starts with the "But keyboard/hat isn't intuitive, either"--which is what I invariably get from the NP fans in this argument--bear in mind that I never said keyboard/hat is intuitive. It isn't. But that doesn't affect the fact that TIR isn't, either--and, unlike hat, TrackIR is claimed to be intuitive.) Oh, and NP has been pretty shady about several other things, and I don't like to support that.

In closing, I do grumblingly recommend TrackIR to people who already know the basics of virtual combat and are looking to improve their abilities--but I am very careful to make sure that they know what they are getting into, and I also ensure that they realize that one can excel at virtual air combat without TrackIR (I know many deadly dogfighters who fly without it). I also prioritize TrackIR well below a good, precise joystick and a good, precise, widely-spaced pair of pedals. (I'd say it's about on the level with a good throttle quadrant.)

Edited September 1, 2012 by Echo38

KLR Rico · September 1, 2012

Also, some explanation of the external views, and the logic behind their function (i.e. which airfield gets shown in what order) would be an excellent aid to everyone and a great boon to aspiring movie makers.

YES! :thumbup:

SharpeXB · September 1, 2012

TrackIR is the easiest game controller or device I have ever used with the PC

I has required no training or configuration at all. Yes there are ways to customize it but I have never found it necessary to do so. The default view style for it is sort of a snap dead zone, I prefer to set it to “smooth” but that’s the only changes I have ever used in the software.

Certainly the alternative to the Track IR, key press or hat switch snap views or mouse look are vastly more complicated than using the TrackIR.

Back to the original topic, I almost get the impression A-10 is intended for you to use it with a TrackIR

I don’t know how it would be possible to use keys for views when you already have a whole HOTAS of buttons needed to operate the plane and mouse look won’t work because you need that for the cockpit controls.

Echo38 · September 1, 2012

TrackIR is the easiest game controller or device I have ever used with the PC
I has required no training or configuration at all.

Yeah, well, you're one of the lucky ones. Just because you found it easy to pick up doesn't mean everyone does. I know a fellow who picked up a flight sim for the first time and became one of the top 5 scorers in the world within 6 months. Most people take years and years to get there, if they ever do get there. TrackIR's sorta the same way. Some people may find it easy to do right away, but a lot of people have immense problems learning it. I suspect, as I said, right-brainers and left-brainers, but the causes are irrelevant; the fact is what it is, regardless of why.

For this reason, telling people that TrackIR will be easy to learn is misleading--it may or may not be easy to learn, depending on the person (and on his or her desk, monitor, and chair setup). I never really quite forgave the people who, before I bought TrackIR, told me that it would be easy to use. A month or so later, after I had become accustomed to it, I was begrudgingly glad that I'd gotten it, because it did improve my effectiveness in virtual air combat. But that didn't change the fact that I felt as though I'd been lied to, even if they didn't intend to deceive me.

This is why I always put in a contrary word whenever I see the glowing recommendations of TrackIR--because my experience differed, and other people's experience was similar to mine [points at Viper's post], and the hype isn't fair to those who aren't lucky enough to have an easy time of it. Which doesn't mean that we're stupid; one can be a freakin' genius and still have a difficult time of figuring out TrackIR. Heck, I know real-life pilots who can't deal with TrackIR in flight sims.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Echo38

PeterP · September 1, 2012

For this reason, telling people that TrackIR will be easy to learn is misleading--it may or may not be easy to learn, depending on the person (and on his or her desk, monitor, and chair setup).

Maybe true- but posting at every possible opportunity that it isn't working for you is also no solution.

Back on topic:

lets put aside the snap views for a moment - as they highly depend on the resolution and aspect-reatio you are using - so there is no setting that works for for all.

Please List which command is unclear for you ?:

Than I will try to explain it - but please make sure you have tried it yourself once in the simulation to see what it is doing before questioning.

I think the biggest problem is that most of the people don't give themselves the time to familiarize with it

and don't make themselves notes or simply print them out.

Yes ! I'm talking of trying each view out in the simulation - you will be surprised how a naming that first sound cryptic becomes a sense afterwards.

Edited September 1, 2012 by PeterP

Echo38 · September 3, 2012

but posting at every possible opportunity that it isn't working for you is also no solution.

It's only fair to prospective buyers to let them know the other side of the story.

ChandlerUSMC · September 3, 2012

Really you should look into getting a better profile for TrackIR, hat switch has nothing on it. Wags has a nice profile that feels totally natural and effortless that I've been using. Check his posts. :)

Kylania,

I've done a forum search with search terms of user: Wags containing: TrackIR and Track (2 different searches) and didn't spot a post by wags concerning TrackIR & his profile.

Any chance you could point me in the right direction, mate?

Thanks,

Chan

BIGNEWY · September 3, 2012

Kylania,

I've done a forum search with search terms of user: Wags containing: TrackIR and Track (2 different searches) and didn't spot a post by wags concerning TrackIR & his profile.

Any chance you could point me in the right direction, mate?

Thanks,

Chan

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=59974&highlight=PROFILE

ChandlerUSMC · September 3, 2012

That explains it. He called it, "TIR5" profile. Thanks a lot, Bignewy.

BIGNEWY · September 3, 2012

no problem , enjoy :)

FreeFall · September 3, 2012

TrackIR is the easiest game controller or device I have ever used with the PC
I has required no training or configuration at all.

Sounds just like my experiences with TIR5. I felt completely comfortable with it, with default settings. With flying.

However, I don't like it with Rally games. I mean driving a car with it doesn't feel good for me at all.

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