Put DCS World on Steam Greenlight?

[pieceofmind]

http://steamcommunity.com/greenlight/

 

I know people tend to either love or hate Steam, but it can't be denied Steam has an enormous audience and the fact DCS World isn't on it means a lot of potential customers are missing out.

 

I suggest getting DCS World up on greenlight so the case can (hopefully) be made stronger for Valve to start discussions with ED re putting the sim on their store.

 

To those who are unfamiliar with greenlight, it's basically Valve outsourcing some of its assessment of incoming proposals for games to put on their store out to its userbase. Valve must receive a large volume of proposals (including a lot of garbage) so it's hoped that people "upvoting" titles on greenlight will make the cream rise to the top and those most voted titles will receive further attention from Valve, while those games that fail to gain any traction might not ever get a second look.

Edited September 1, 2012 by pieceofmind

[cichlidfan]

Please do a search of the forum. ED has made overtures to Steam with regard to new products. Steam is not interested.

[AtaliaA1]

It all boils down to the "Bean Counters" (Accountants) Wich also includes in todays Corporations the Marketing Teams.

 

Our Genre doesn't appeal to the masses. To complicated to much time to learn all the systems. A Mantra stated several times over the yrs. of this type of Sim Gaming Software. Hence its Monicer "The Study Sim".

 

Americans, and now in our "Global" economic environs; people want to Zone out when not working, they find gaming a matter of destraction from the norm. norm being the hustle and bustle of daily life, zoning out appeals to the natural tendency of people to relax when ever possible. Think about it? I mean comon' Angry Birds????!!! this game must have sold billions by now.

 

We are a rare breed my friend, enjoy your status; and as I do, just smile and nod at those who don't understand the thrill of adding "True Realism" to their gaming adventures. The sense of accomplishment alone drove me to this great work of art called DCS A-10. And allow it to stand as an indictment to the Public Education system that we as a peolple stray away from that that would challenge our intellect in a manner that is rewarding in so many ways.

Edited September 1, 2012 by AtaliaA1

[Pyroflash]

I blame the teachers. They let kids get away with far too much nowadays, and this has led to a lack of appreciation for the finer things in life.

[pieceofmind]

Please do a search of the forum. ED has made overtures to Steam with regard to new products. Steam is not interested.

I did do some searches, particularly for "greenlight" with nothing showing up. I've followed this topic for a while now, inside and outside of this forum, but there seems to be very little information about why there is no longer a relationship with Valve/Steam. From what I've read, Valve is basically giving them the silent treatment (based on a post by, I believe, Wags a couple months back). If there are more recent or more concrete announcements I'd appreciate a quick link to them.

 

In any case, if Valve isn't listening, that's the point of this greenlight. Even if the sim doesn't achieve enough votes on greenlight to the point where it will get new consideration, it will help bring more peoples' attention to the sim, and that can only be a good thing can't it? As I glance through some of the titles on greenlight now, I keep discovering titles that I've never heard of before yet seem quite polished in their stage of development.

 

Nothing really bad can come of taking advantage of it, unless someone from the team starts responding unprofessionally to negative comments or something similarly unwise.

It all boils down to the "Bean Counters" (Accountants) Wich also includes in todays Corporations the Marketing Teams.

 

Our Genre doesn't appeal to the masses. To complicated to much time to learn all the systems. A Mantra stated several times over the yrs. of this type of Sim Gaming Software. Hence its Monicer "The Study Sim".

 

Americans, and now in our "Global" economic environs; people want to Zone out when not working, they find gaming a matter of destraction from the norm. norm being the hustle and bustle of daily life, zoning out appeals to the natural tendency of people to relax when ever possible. Think about it? I mean comon' Angry Birds????!!! this game must have sold billions by now.

 

We are a rare breed my friend, enjoy your status; and as I do, just smile and nod at those who don't understand the thrill of adding "True Realism" to their gaming adventures. The sense of accomplishment alone drove me to this great work of art called DCS A-10. And allow it to stand as an indictment to the Public Education system that we as a peolple stray away from that that would challenge our intellect in a manner that is rewarding in so many ways.

Yes the casual games market is significant now, I still wouldn't underestimate the number of people out there who still like depth in their games. "PC gamers" commonly lament the "consolization" of games and the "dumbing down" or simplification of sequels to successful games.

 

I would point to strategy gamers in particular as a segment of the market who appreciate the games which the more casual players would steer clear of because the games seem like work.

 

Anyway, one thing I want to say is that I don't agree with the attitude of giving up and generalising about what the market wants. If it's true that ED would rather retreat than keep pushing to spread the sim then that's their choice but I really doubt they have anything like that in their vision/plan.

 

I am mainly interested in seeing a discussion about whether greenlight adds any opportunities to the table or whether it's hopeless given the messages that have been coming (or not coming) from Valve. It might be that it's more or less useless to developers and publishers who have (or had) an existing relationship with Valve.

Edited September 1, 2012 by pieceofmind

[marcos]

Steam is shit.*

 

*But nowhere near as bad as Origin.

[pieceofmind]

Steam is shit.*

 

*But nowhere near as bad as Origin.

 

Could you please say why?

[Echo38]

Because it holds a near-monopoly on gaming, and holds absolute, complete control over what the gamer does. It's basically a rental service with an unspecified rental term, at the sole discretion of the company. Steam takes every right away from the customer and gives all of them solely to the company. Have you even read the E.U.L.A.? They are legally allowed to permanently cut you off from every single one of your Steam games, for any reason, without refund nor even explanation. "But Echo, they would neeever do that!" It is irrelevant whether or not they have done so, and irrelevant whether or not they will--the problem is that they can, and it is by their design that they have procured this ridiculously one-sided arrangement. Valve is basically holding the gamer hostage, and the vast majority of those gamers don't even notice it.

 

Even putting aside this, even from a purely practical standpoint, it's annoying as crap the way they hold that control--for example, day before yesterday there was a problem with their master server during the Left for Dead 2 patch release. The master server reported that it was too busy to allow me to download the patch--which is fair enough, but then Steam refused to let me play the old version instead, because it wasn't the latest version. So I couldn't play it at all that day, until the master server came back up. One of my friends only has one or two days a week in which he can play, and LfD2 is the only game we both have, so thanks to Valve's control-freak-ness, we unnecessarily were unable to play.

 

Really, though, I was originally going to simply write, "If you have to ask, then you'll never understand," because I've found that anyone who doesn't already object to Steam will defend it tooth and nail, like they've got Stockholm syndrome, and no amount of explanation of the ways in which Steam is bad for the gamer will change their mind. Bluntly, if I were wiser, I wouldn't have bothered writing out this post. Grr.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Echo38

[pieceofmind]

Because it holds a near-monopoly on gaming, and holds absolute, complete control over what the gamer does. It's basically a rental service with an unspecified rental term, at the sole discretion of the company. Steam takes every right away from the customer and gives all of them solely to the company. Have you even read the E.U.L.A.? They are legally allowed to permanently cut you off from every single one of your Steam games, for any reason, without refund nor even explanation. "But Echo, they would neeever do that!" It is irrelevant whether or not they have done so, and irrelevant whether or not they will--the problem is that they can, and it is by their design that they have procured this ridiculously one-sided arrangement. Valve is basically holding the gamer hostage, and the vast majority of those gamers don't even notice it.

 

Even putting aside this, even from a purely practical standpoint, it's annoying as crap the way they hold that control--for example, day before yesterday there was a problem with their master server during the Left for Dead 2 patch release. The master server reported that it was too busy to allow me to download the patch--which is fair enough, but then Steam refused to let me play the old version instead, because it wasn't the latest version. So I couldn't play it at all that day, until the master server came back up. One of my friends only has one or two days a week in which he can play, and LfD2 is the only game we both have, so thanks to Valve's control-freak-ness, we unnecessarily were unable to play.

 

Really, though, I was originally going to simply write, "If you have to ask, then you'll never understand," because I've found that anyone who doesn't already object to Steam will defend it tooth and nail, like they've got Stockholm syndrome, and no amount of explanation of the ways in which Steam is bad for the gamer will change their mind. Bluntly, if I were wiser, I wouldn't have bothered writing out this post. Grr.

I used to hate it too, but I use it a lot of the time now. Agreed, there are people who jump to its defense at every opportunity and often in a pretty childish manner (especially on Steam's own forum) but I would rather talk about it with a level head and talk of the reality.

 

There are those such as yourself who object to the terms of using Steam and I respect that. However understanding that most people don't hold those same objections (of if they do then not to the same extent) and the sheer size of the Steam audience I think it's foolish to ignore them. Whatever problems ED have with getting these titles on Steam I'm sure they have little if anything to do with the few customers who avoid Steam entirely.

 

I doubt it's in ED's interest to take a stand against Steam (for acting like a monopoly etc.). On the contrary ED would probably love the opportunity to have a renewed arrangement that would see some of their recent and upcoming titles on Steam.

 

From your post it seems it is mainly the Steam DRM you object to, and DRM like that is pretty much the norm now across other stores or download services, with exceptions including GOG, Desura and some indie devs. Actually I found the DRM in the retail copy of Black Shark to be one of the worst I've seen but that's another matter.

 

and no amount of explanation of the ways in which Steam is bad for the gamer will change their mind

With all due respect most people can make up their own mind whether or not it's good for them. It's important to remember that games are, in the end, only a luxury and that a lot of people would happily take more convenience at the cost of reduced consumer rights. Other people will have priorities on that scale that different to your own and neither you nor they are more right than the other.

 

Thanks for posting your opinion though. I hope I haven't sounded too defensive - I certainly don't expect to change your mind on anything but I do hope the post gives some ideas to consider. Remember I come to this discussion as someone who used to fervently oppose the idea of any game requiring Steam but also as someone who now uses Steam on a regular basis - I've seen both sides of the argument and I have a lot of familiarity with Steam as a service.

[pieceofmind]

Just to add some context, I'm posting here two flight combat games I've seen listed, along with some comments they've attracted.

 

(and yes I know these two games are at opposite sides of the sim/aracade spectrum, but consider them anyway as flight games)

 

Molten Sky

 

Some of the comments left for it:

 

 

I definitely want more sims on Steam, and this one looks very good. Love the sunset pics.

Nice Simulation. Vote + Russian make the Sims Microprose does it in the 80 and 90 ;) Gogo we need more Sims ;)

Russian flight simulators is the best! All virtual pilots must vote for this game :)

looks good but i wouldnt pay for it if dosnt have a any mission creator...

Looks really good - You need to add a Sukhoi SU-47 though!

looks pretty good, man

Interesting, looking forward to giving this a whirl :-)

This looks a lot like Arma II but with more tactics. If it also has a solid mission creator, this could be a real winner. It certainly looks the part. I'd to see more first person control shots - if this is a flight simulator, not just an RTS, the inside of the cockpit is very important.

so a russian game made where the US no longer has air superiority? someone forgot to inform you the cold war was over long ago huh.

 

average graphics i can live with, no cockpit flying and what looks like poor flight mechanics, no thanks.

No cockpit view and unrealistic moves, instant dislike

 

 

Vector Thrust

 

Some of the comments left for it:

 

lmao no....flightsims have been made a moockery of enough....begone

an AC-like game on PC alone is great, not to mention the quality is pretty high. I'll try to inform as much friends about this greenlight as possible :D

+1 Vote

 

Since I left my Ace Combat series with my friend in Arizona I've been starved for a flight simulator. And since these days I'm 90% PC gamer I would love to see this released. It really does seem heavily influenced by the AC series but I really want a cockpit mode with fully modeled cockpits like AC had. . . I preffered that view because the 3rd person plane view always screwed with my sense of depth perception in relation to the game world.

up voted and added to favorites

Interesting. I just hope this game have joystick control option.

My hand not that agile anymore when flying planes using keyboard only.

Definitely get my vote - coz I'm just nuts over flight sim games.

 

I do agreed with what V1tamnT said, about having true cockpit view.

 

 

[Ich666]

I was about to open a thread on this one yesterday, but somehow....

 

Anyways: I could see a lot of players giving DCS World a try if it was released on Steam, simply because its "on there" and for free. Why would it be bad for Eagle Dynamics to put DCS World on Steam (Greenlight or not) and see what happens? They could sell the Modules as DLCs and have the base game free for everyone. Also a lot of cons dont apply if they supply the serials along with the modules: Those who want to play their games on Steam are free to do so, those that want to stay away from it can just go ahead and play with the client from the homepage.

 

I bought my DCS A10 over Steam simply because it was convenient and i didnt have to sign up somewhere else to buy it. Without Steam i would probably never have found this gem of a sim.

[Nate--IRL--]

Please do a search of the forum. ED has made overtures to Steam with regard to new products. Steam is not interested.

 

Not quite true. It seems Valve are overwhelmed with Devs trying to submit games and the Greenlight initiative is a way to address that. Greenlight is something ED is aware of.

 

Nate

[cichlidfan]

That was not the impression provided by Wags.

 

Be that as it may, even if DCS World et. al. were on Steam, there is still the 64bit issue so the Steam overlay is not compatible and the fact that updates took so long most current users took DCS A-10 off of Steam.

 

Either way, as long as ED continues to provide direct access to updates, I really don't care. Nothing else that I fly is on Steam either.

[Nate--IRL--]

That was not the impression provided by Wags.

 

Be that as it may, even if DCS World et. al. were on Steam, there is still the 64bit issue so the Steam overlay is not compatible and the fact that updates took so long most current users took DCS A-10 off of Steam.

 

Either way, as long as ED continues to provide direct access to updates, I really don't care. Nothing else that I fly is on Steam either.

 

Ah ok. Maybe I missed what Wags said. Anyway, ED are working very hard to make the patch/update dance a thing of the past.

 

Nate

[cichlidfan]

Anyway, ED are working very hard to make the patch/update dance a thing of the past.

 

That I am certainly looking forward to, although, it makes one wonder how it would work with Steam...but who cares if it works.

 

Btw, it is not that I am against Steam, I have tons of games on it. It just does not matter to me if something is on it or not.

[EtherealN]

there is still the 64bit issue so the Steam overlay is not compatible

 

This is now fixed, however it requires manual setup in Steam.

[NineLine]

I like steam, I have had it for a looooong time. That said, if I had hopes for anything, I would hope for some functionality tied into the DCS auto-updater that is in the works, as in you could log into your DCS account and download all your purchases from there so that if you were installing on a new computer you had an easy install rather than a number of doanloads, etc, that is what I would rather see personally.

 

I feel heavily modded stuff isnt as fun on Steam. Origin was EA taking their toys and going home... it has gotten better.

[Echo38]

Actually I found the DRM in the retail copy of Black Shark to be one of the worst I've seen but that's another matter.

 

I'm in agreement about Black Shark--that's why I didn't get any DCS titles until about three weeks ago--but A-10C isn't nearly as bad as Steam. According to E.D.'s info, the current system is such that, even if E.D. disappeared forever right now, we'd be able to continue to install A-10C on all of our computers for the rest of our lives (albeit with potential inconvenience due to the once-per-month thing). Can't say that for Steam. E.D.'s latest DRM is, while excessive by my standard, not nearly as much of a control-freak as Steam.

 

With all due respect most people can make up their own mind whether or not it's good for them.

 

I wish that were true, but in actuality, most people have no idea what's good for them--the proof of this is in the way people slowly, gradually sign away their rights until they have none, blindly trusting those in power to not abuse it. This is not only true of Steam, gaming in general, and even computers in general, but also in "big things" such as government and companies. Of course, people still have the right to consider this to be good for them, but--hate to break it--they're wrong, and time'll prove me right, just as it has every other time the people have gradually given their power away to someone more ambitious and less complacent. (Cue Godwin's law.) It's unsettlingly reminiscent of the American Indians selling their land for trinkets and blankets, without realizing what they were doing.

 

Remember I come to this discussion as someone who used to fervently oppose the idea of any game requiring Steam but also as someone who now uses Steam on a regular basis - I've seen both sides of the argument and I have a lot of familiarity with Steam as a service.

 

I use Steam daily. After years of refusing to use it, I finally caved, because I realized that one-man boycotts are useless. All that was happening was that I couldn't play games with my gaming buddies, because they'd all moved to Steam without pausing to consider long-term consequences. None of them bothered to read the E.U.L.A.--I asked them. In fact, I've never met a single person who has. They just laugh it off and call me paranoid. [shrug] Now I use Steam, but I hate it, and it's constantly irritating me with its little ways of keeping control in every aspect possible, and I only use it for games which have no option but Steam. And I remain absolutely boggled at the Stockholm syndrome which the Steam apologists display as they merrily help to dig all of our proverbial gaming graves. Not that I mean gaming is going to die altogether, but it's gonna be a pretty poor market when the only thing widely available is a weak yellow lager, so to speak. More to the point, it's gonna suck when we're completely at the mercy of the company--we're mostly there now, but in time, it'll be worse and the average user will eventually be able to feel it, instead of only the more critical ones.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Echo38

[sobek]

Of course, people still have the right to consider this to be good for them, but, hate to break it, but they're wrong--and time'll prove me right, just as it has every other time the people have gradually given their power away to someone more ambitious and less complacent. (Cue Godwin's law.)

 

Sorry for the OT, but what does that have to do with Godwin's law?

[Echo38]

Well, what's the classic example of people gradually giving their power away to someone ambitious? : )

[Jona33]

Or because someone is going to accuse someone else of being Power Nazis? :)

[EtherealN]

Well, what's the classic example of people gradually giving their power away to someone ambitious? : )

 

No, it isn't. History book is in the library, and let's halt that line of argumentation right there. It will end very badly for the quality of discussion.

 

I mean, you are aware of the fact that invoking Godwin's law like this qualifies as losing the argument under the rules of Godwin's law? :D

[Echo38]

you are aware of the fact that invoking Godwin's law like this qualifies as losing the argument under the rules of Godwin's law?

 

I'm not particularly interested in "winning" debates. I couldn't argue my way out of a paper bag--and that doesn't mean that I'm wrong. Heck, I doubt I could convince someone that Earth revolves around Sol, but that doesn't make Earth stop doing it. So, yeah, I never expect to "win" any argument, that is, to convince anyone of anything. I still don't know why I even try. Guess it's a compulsion. http://xkcd.com/386

Edited September 1, 2012 by Echo38

[sobek]

FWIW, you might want to read up on Godwin's law, IMHO it is rather important to know what it is about. With that said, let's leave this line of discussion and continue back OT.

[Wolf Rider]

 

I mean, you are aware of the fact that invoking Godwin's law like this qualifies as losing the argument under the rules of Godwin's law? :D

 

 

not quite right...

 

the "losing the argument" thing is an extension of what Godwin cited, morphing Godwin's law into a 'net tradition.

 

Godwin's law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.".

 

meaning; the longer (and more heated) a thread becomes, the more likely that the comparison will be made.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Wolf Rider