Unbalancing the simulation through inconsistent realism levels

[Yellonet]

It is.

Where?

[EvilBivol-1]

http://www.lockonskins.co.uk/viewfullsize.php?start=17&dir=files/addon/gallery/1.2&title=Lockon%201.2%20screenshots&s=r

 

bottom left, you can see the control pad and just a piece of the arm grip.

[Yellonet]

http://www.lockonskins.co.uk/viewfullsize.php?start=17&dir=files/addon/gallery/1.2&title=Lockon%201.2%20screenshots&s=r

 

bottom left, you can see the control pad and just a piece of the arm grip.

Thanks :)

So how will we controll that with a joystick? :icon_neut

[EvilBivol-1]

Same way you control an aircraft's throttle (except maybe reverse the slider, so that you pull the throttle back to increase power, forward to decrease).

[VapoR]

Same way you control an aircraft's throttle (except maybe reverse the slider, so that you pull the throttle back to increase power, forward to decrease).

 

Now more than ever we will need to be able to have profiles for each flyable!! All there needs to be in the input options screen is a drop-down list of the planes, just like there is for the different combat modes.

[EvilBivol-1]

That is in the general plans. Not sure for what project though. :)

[MonnieRock]

I have to agree, Once you start to dig deep into the AFM of the Su-25T the other aircraft feel..umm..too easy. Part of simulating an aircraft is not just blasting off into the sky and firing missles. What about coming home and landing. Man, does it feel good when you touch the gound like a feather with the SU-25T.

 

Most of the players I fly with, some very good, have the most difficulty landing the Su-25T. Why? Because it is more indepth. You don't just do a loop around the runway and bam set it down. Some of the players that do a/a gunzo that are really good who fly with me, I challenged them to do gunzo in the SU-25T with me. They were shocked and told me how much fun they had with the flight model and the next thing out of their mouth was " Man, I wish the 27 had that or the F-15"

 

I have to disagree with Kenan( nothing against you man) but this is exactly what I am talking about.

 

"What do you want? To struggle while flying Fulcrum? I don't think of it as AFM, rather a LTFM (Looney Tunes Flight Model)."

 

It is not a LTFM, nor is it a struggle, it is a flight model that requires more skill to master the areodynamics of an aircraft as well as training. Fighter or Bomber, or Helo.

 

So I commend ED for the work they did on the AFM !!! It is what made me purchase 1.1. Not the plane, the AFM.

 

On that note, I just fly the Su-33 to keep brushed up on my carrier landings, and the avionics. Other than that, each time I play with my friends I request them to have a Su-25T in our Multi misions or I get bored.

[GGTharos]

Sorry MonnieRock, you're plain wrong.

 

The Su-25T is QUITE SIMPLY a flying brick transport. It is a PIG. No man with any sort of dignity should fly it (runs away)

 

Anyway, on a more serious note, I'll try to make this painfully clear:

 

Just ebcause it's harder, it doesn't mean it's more realistic.

Just because it's easier, it doesn't mean it's less realistic.

 

Lots of aircraft out there are BUILT to have very good handling and 'easy to fly' chracteristics. The Su-25/T is a very stable aircraft to fly, and that's a good characteristic. But it has a narrow wheelbase, and is quite underpowered which are BAD characteristics.

 

You'd find that otehr than sideslip and asymmetric payloads, and OOC modes, the F-15 and Su-27 with AWF would fly (not feel, FLY) /extremely/ similar to AFM. They will -not- require a lot more skill to master than SFM planes. The Su-25T is simply another story, period. ;) (By the way, the first thing I did when I got 1.1 was land a fully loaded Su-25T. I got right right .. the first time, and every time after that. It is NOT hard if you understand the principles of a proper landing which are THE SAME for AFM AND SFM)

 

Besides which, AFM is actually missing the WIG effect, which makes aircraft EASIER to land - and without it, the Su-25T is harder to land than it should be.

 

So like I said ... harder does NOT equal more realistic.

[504 Wolverine]

The Su-25T is QUITE SIMPLY a flying brick transport. It is a PIG. No man with any sort of dignity should fly it (runs away)

 

Yes, Yes and..... Hey get back here ya bugger. :icon_axe: :p

[MonnieRock]

well..all the technical data I do not know as I am a locksmith not a sim software programmer. I have flown civilian aircraft. I just like the feel of the AFM. If it is so wrong, then why is it there?

 

As far as landing, I too landed the first time right on the money. That is not to say others had to tune their skills.

[GGTharos]

Monnie, AFM gives 'more correct' behavior in a number of cases. The point is that SFM is NOT 'incorrect' - and I agree with you that the feel of the AFM is great, and I'd love to see it on all aircraft. However, that some aircraft are AFM and some SFM is not currently unbalancing the game. THis is my point :)

[peterj]

Sorry MonnieRock, you're plain wrong.

 

The Su-25T is QUITE SIMPLY a flying brick transport. It is a PIG. No man with any sort of dignity should fly it (runs away)

 

Anyway, on a more serious note, I'll try to make this painfully clear:

 

Just ebcause it's harder, it doesn't mean it's more realistic.

Just because it's easier, it doesn't mean it's less realistic.

 

Lots of aircraft out there are BUILT to have very good handling and 'easy to fly' chracteristics. The Su-25/T is a very stable aircraft to fly, and that's a good characteristic. But it has a narrow wheelbase, and is quite underpowered which are BAD characteristics.

 

You'd find that otehr than sideslip and asymmetric payloads, and OOC modes, the F-15 and Su-27 with AWF would fly (not feel, FLY) /extremely/ similar to AFM. They will -not- require a lot more skill to master than SFM planes. The Su-25T is simply another story, period. ;) (By the way, the first thing I did when I got 1.1 was land a fully loaded Su-25T. I got right right .. the first time, and every time after that. It is NOT hard if you understand the principles of a proper landing which are THE SAME for AFM AND SFM)

 

Besides which, AFM is actually missing the WIG effect, which makes aircraft EASIER to land - and without it, the Su-25T is harder to land than it should be.

 

So like I said ... harder does NOT equal more realistic.

I imagine that the AFM makes the biggest difference when your reaching the edge of what the airplane can do, while that egde is narrower on the su-25t it should make a noticeable differance on any airframe?

 

You could argue that the fact that the 25t is underpowered makes it more fun to fly. It's challanging and rewarding, if you do it right you can make a sharp turn, else you will fall like a brick :)

 

Anyway, dispite any balance problems I like what ED does now, adding new content with new features.

[MonnieRock]

Monnie, AFM gives 'more correct' behavior in a number of cases. The point is that SFM is NOT 'incorrect' - and I agree with you that the feel of the AFM is great, and I'd love to see it on all aircraft. However, that some aircraft are AFM and some SFM is not currently unbalancing the game. THis is my point :)

 

 

Maybe we were a little off with communication because of the title of the thread.

 

I do not think the SFM are incorrect

I do not think the AFM is totally correct

Do I wish all had AFM, Yes

Do I think the AFM makes the sim unbalanced, no. It creates preferences.

 

 

AFM for the current SFM flyables would not make them correct or incorrect, it would just enhance them with the added physics to the flight model.

 

Initially in my post, I was basically trying to say how much I like the AFM and promote the effort and hard work ED has done, as well as the effect it has on me within the sim

[GGTharos]

Ok. Group hug then ;)

 

And yes peterj, you are exactly correct. It's the edge of the envelope that changes, also aymetric payloads and damage force vectors, and OOC modes (Out of Control Modes)

[Prophet_169th]

6DOF is related only to TrackIR and their new Vector Expansion. I do not understand how the ability to move your head up, down, side to side, and zoom in provides any more realism to the Ka-50 or for that matter how panning your head provides any more realism.

 

Just wait. Being able to look over the side of the cockpit as you fly over tank. Whip the tail around and blast that sucker again =)

 

Would be nice to have 6DOF in fighter, would make checking your six a lot easier. Image, being able to look around your seat O.O

[Prophet_169th]

The Su-25T is QUITE SIMPLY a flying brick transport. It is a PIG. No man with any sort of dignity should fly it (runs away)

 

One thing I have found about this thing, when at full load its a Pig. But if I only load like the inner 2 Pylons, usually 58's and Vihkirs, it dont fly that bad.

 

Sure is a full hog it seems.

[EvilBivol-1]

But if I only load like the inner 2 Pylons...

 

Which is a MUCH more realistic representation of the way the VVS would most likely use it in any currently realistic scenario.

[Prophet_169th]

I could load 2 more 25MPU, or ML. And some cluster dispensers. But honestly in the end, I end up getting nailed by a SAM because I cant manuever. So It is almost just not worth it.

 

Though the 58s and Vihkirs are heavy. So if I aint carrying the heavy stuff, I may fill all pylons.

[Gazehound]

Its not just weight but drag too. If you load up to the max weight with missiles you will not perform as well as with some bombs on (esp regarding max speed). Also you can see the drag effect by placing 2 different 500kg bombs on opposite pylons.

[Vosxod]

I totally agree with Yellonet. I feel a great deal of frustration with having this mixture of quality in the same environment. I also agree that balance suffers because of it. Those who say it does not probably do not fly all planes regularly. I do. And when I switch from A-10 to Su25T and then to Su33 OMG! :( Just dancing with joystick profiles is frustrating (which I think could have been fixed many patches before).

That being said I still like LO. Yes it sux to have such mix in the game, but having no alternatives - we just have to live with it.... :cool:

[britgliderpilot]

Would be nice to have 6DOF in fighter, would make checking your six a lot easier. Image, being able to look around your seat O.O

 

Unfortunately, that's not realistic for the Russian aircraft. Once strapped in, you just can't check your six . . . . and neither can you "look around" your seat.

 

It'd still be cool, for sure :D

[tflash]

I totally agree with Yellonet. I feel a great deal of frustration with having this mixture of quality in the same environment. I also agree that balance suffers because of it. Those who say it does not probably do not fly all planes regularly. I do. And when I switch from A-10 to Su25T and then to Su33 OMG! :( Just dancing with joystick profiles is frustrating (which I think could have been fixed many patches before).

That being said I still like LO. Yes it sux to have such mix in the game, but having no alternatives - we just have to live with it.... :cool:

 

To me this is the only real problem: having to change the joystick profile. This is really something that needs to be fixed.

 

Of course, what all these "modern" air combat aircraft could use is some decent Fly-by-wire technology upgrade; this would soften up a little the big AFM/SFM divide, no?

[Pilotasso]

Sorry MonnieRock, you're plain wrong.

Just ebcause it's harder, it doesn't mean it's more realistic.

Just because it's easier, it doesn't mean it's less realistic.

 

Exactly. I think many developing teams over the years though the other way around because I have yet to see a SIM reproduce the gracious flight of each of the aircraft reproduced in them. Im simply tired of stalling air superiority fighters when I see the real counterparts do the manuevers Im atempting to do in the SIM easely. Because of this I realy look forward for AFM for fighters.

[Yellonet]

Exactly. I think many developing teams over the years though the other way around because I have yet to see a SIM reproduce the gracious flight of each of the aircraft reproduced in them. Im simply tired of stalling air superiority fighters when I see the real counterparts do the manuevers Im atempting to do in the SIM easely. Because of this I realy look forward for AFM for fighters.

And we might get it... in 2010 or so when the F-16 vs. MiG-29K comes around ;)

[Fish]

6DOF is related only to TrackIR and their new Vector Expansion. I do not understand how the ability to move your head up, down, side to side, and zoom in provides any more realism ...........

Do recall this is a helo. Do recall this is not going to be

 

It sounds like you have'nt tried TIR and VE?

In RL you don't use a button on the stick to look around, and in RL you can change you head position left an right, given the limits of the seat restraints.

 

But the most important point, since this is a simulator, is the 'IMMERSION' factor. Its the 'sense' of realism, the feel of it. It makes as much of a difference to immersion, as a good Hotas does.