Noob ish question: spotting things

[Witchking]

Hi guys,

 

Its embarassing to admit, but I have been playing ed sims since the flanker days and I hate to admit that only now am I learning to play without labels on. It's so hard to spot targets. I think I am ok in the f-15 with bvr when I can scan and pick up air targets...but especially with the ground pounders, I Ab e tremendous difficulty pickin up choppers against the terrain. I am getting better with ground target spotting. In the a-10c, using the tgp, waypoint info, and mission briefing, it is relatively manageable. But in the fc3 jets especially I need to still orient myself with f10 view. But against flying targets with ground clutter in the background, I am useless and keep myself doing shift+f10 every now and then.

 

Any tutorials on how to spot targets?

 

Thanks,

 

V

[EtherealN]

Tutorials, no, not really, not that I've seen. I suck at spotting planes IRL as well unless I have good cues.

 

But I'll make a note on the technical aspects: be very aware of how your graphics settings might affect your spotting (like anti-alias being able to "hide" minute objects), and most especially your screen: if the screen is small and high-resolution, you'll be at a distinct disadvantage compared to someone that has a bigger screen at the same (or better, obviously) resolution. And combine "good" anti-alias with tiny pixels and you might completely miss what someone with a bigger screen and less AA could find obvious.

 

Though there is a grain of salt to be applied here as well: less anti-alias might make it technically easier to spot a given aircraft or given target, but the "jaggies" might also cause so many other spurious movements to attract your attention that are purely graphical artefacts that you end up worse off anyhow. Proper testing of this is something that would be extremely time-consuming and difficult, but it might be an idea for you to play with.

[mmaruda]

It would be cool if ED could add a ground units smart scaling option like Falcon has.

[EtherealN]

Speaking from a purely MP perspective: this would only boost the advantage held by the individual with the larger display.

 

Getting visual on units, both in the air and on the ground, is quite difficult. I have, in real life, circled above a forest where I knew for absolute fact that there was a major military vehicle/munitions dump hidden in. I was flying low (about 1000 meters). I never actually saw it.

 

Stuff that moves is easier. Stuff that actually wants to hide? You're not finding that from any distance without SERIOUS work. But most sim pilots object to spending 30 minutes on-station just scanning.

[Witchking]

I am currently using a 15" monitor with 4x msaa and its very very hard to spot targets. Its way easier to spot moving targets/targets on the road. But for instance, in the Su25 quick start mission...if you hit the targets at the wrong time while they are in the town, they disperse in the town and it makes it terribly hard to spot them against the textures of the map.

 

The biggest shock was when I joined a MP match for the first time with DCS World on the weekend, I found it disorienting to be unable to see hidden enemy units on the map + unable to toggle labels. I attacked this power plant that I found out was actually the wrong one.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Witchking

[Frostie]

Having flown with my squad mates for 6 years flying 4 ship spread and box formations, keeping in shape while making numerous tactical turns and engaging/extending, keeping shape has become second nature with only the odd visual check needed to confirm where I know my wingman should be. But when a new guy comes in staying in shape becomes all visual and this is where ED's sims have trouble.

 

The biggest problem is that the lod almost disappears between the 8 and 4km range which can be slightly rectified by zoom, then when the aircraft gets closer it all becomes much more visible again.

 

With regards to just general spotting air and ground targets zooming in is key but I found the greatest bonus to come from turning off Antialiasing, the jaggies made the lod stand out much darker in FC2 and previous versions, as for FC3 this is still an unknown for me but the disappearing lod between 4 and 8 km remains plus both Flankers are ridiculously easily visible at somewhere upto 40 km while every other aircraft is nowhere near that.

In the end though a bigger screen makes a huge difference especially considering you're using 15".

[Lange_666]

Its embarassing to admit, but I have been playing ed sims since the flanker days and I hate to admit that only now am I learning to play without labels on.

 

I feel it's not that embarrasing as you think it is. I used to fly around with labels a lot too, just to be able to build me a picture of my surrounding world. Then i ended up 51th server flying A-10A missions and there where no labels anymore. Hard at first but once you get used to it, you really didn't need them. Up until FC1 targets where always visible as a black spot, even from miles away. Couldn't see them sitting between the building of a town, no problem, just fly the mission without buildings once to give you an idea on where they were and then refly the same mission with buildings on. It was a bit like using the map.

 

From FC2, targets were not black spots anymore and got a more camo look which didn't make things easier. But since flying on the 51th servers, i stopped flying with labels on.

 

Like EtherealN says, technical aspects of your setup can make a difference. There is more shimmering with TrackIR on as it is without (just put TIR on pause while looking at a fence and you know what i'm talking about). And more shimmering can hide small objects, certainly when they are only a few pixels big. I pause my TrackIR a lot to get a stable picture.

Also zooming can make a big difference. Zooming is in fact as big as a cheat as labels are. There is nobody on earth who can zoom like flightsims can (hell, even Lee Majors did not had that kinda zoom in The Six Million Dollar Man). But since zooming is available, use it to your advantage to find targets. Once you get the hang of flying without labels, the reward is much bigger.

 

A good way to learn is to go online, download the mission, edit it with the mission editor so you can see everything, make hidden targets visible on the map, print it, set everything to default mission standard again and then use this info as a briefing and try to find the targets. Nice training to get you going.

[Gryzor]

Try my file and set "Labels ON". It´s a label.lua modification, in order to not see all labelling info, only a bigger dot.

Labels.lua

[16th Widowmakr]

Some may call this a "cheat" but there is a Function Key that locks onto the nearest ground unit when you are in range. Friendly or Enemy so you still have to be able to determine the differance! Another way would be to use the F10 map and note the Lat and Long of the unit provided they haven't been hidden. Then enter the co-ordinates in the CDU and there you go. That method takes some practice and knowledge of the operation of the CDU though!

[Witchking]

I am glad to see that I am not alone in facing this issue. But I want to learn and avoid using any kind of labels. Especially as u see in some of the videos (Ralfi's)...people are so adept at finding targets blind. Also, the FC aircraft lack any sort of CDU to find targets and without assigned targets, it just makes it all the more harder.

 

I have been getting into DCS more and more as finally my setup can run DCS smoothly so I have no excuse to not play more. (apart from workplace stuff that is). So I want to do it properly and not just admire the little things in the game...but also enjoy the actual mission/execution.

[sorcer3r]

It would be cool if ED could add a ground units smart scaling option like Falcon has.

 

+1

I have an old 19" crt and smart scaling helps a lot.

[Cali]

I am currently using a 15" monitor with 4x msaa and its very very hard to spot targets.

 

That right there is your problem. If you could get a bigger display like EtherealN said it would help you out tremendously. I use a 26" monitor and have no problems spotting targets, I couldn't image using a 15". That's the size of my laptop I'm using now. I hate it and I'm not even playing games with it. I don't know what your money situation is, but a 22" monitor doesn't cost that much nowadays.

[KLR Rico]

I've come a long way since first turning off the labels... Air targets are still a challenge, I don't know what can be done about that, but as far as ground targets, I've picked up a few tricks.

 

First, I've learned to anticipate where the units will be. After a while, you pick up on the patterns & formations that the enemy uses. For example, artillery is setup at the rear of the enemy front (look for the smoke from them firing too), and tanks often guard the roads leading into an enemy held town. Tanks are usually setup 3 abreast, so if you find one, scan laterally to find the other two. Just little stuff like that helped me know where to look. Ever since I started flying by the mk 1 eyeball, and less heads down at the TGP, I've gotten quite a bit better at attacking in general.

 

I also play with a 32" LCD @ 1080p, that helps too. :)

[Lange_666]

I am glad to see that I am not alone in facing this issue. But I want to learn and avoid using any kind of labels. Especially as u see in some of the videos (Ralfi's)...people are so adept at finding targets blind.

 

And how many times have they flown the same mission over and over again with the same targets always on the same locations before making the actual video? Once you know that info, spotting them is fairly easy.

 

If you don't have any info at all, not from the briefing (a lot of missions suck big time in briefings), not from the F-10 map etc... then it's far from easy to spot them first flying that mission.

[Witchking]

I use a 15" because my rig is a laptop. I used to have a 17" asus G73, but this was an upgrade and I definitely need an external, but I am awaiting some good sales on boxing day to pick one up. Also since I am a student, I was going to wait a bit till I figure out where I will be in the nxt year+ and then get a nice 40" TV or something.

[ishtmail]

I use a 27'' full-hd screen, and I can honestly say that this size is almost too small for any kind of serious flying and am already seriously considering an upgrade. For a decent situation awareness, I'd say a 38'' or larger screen size would do the trick.

 

To play it on a 15 incher is... well... unimaginable.

 

EDIT:

Considering the low prices of today's large LCD screens, and considering EVERY laptop today has a HDMI output, I don't understand why you don't buy the display and attach it to your laptop? I mean, if you can cash out $500 for a Hotas Warthog setup, a $250 LCD with 27'' screen isn't that big an investment.

Edited December 6, 2012 by ishtmail

[EtherealN]

I use a 15" because my rig is a laptop.

 

That shouldn't be a hindrance; you should have HDMI or VGA output on it.

 

With a 15 inch monitor, I can definitely see why you're having problems. I don't accept 15 inch monitors for word processing, let alone simming.

 

I've personally held up on getting a TV since we have License fees in this country, and there's no way I'm going to pay the equivalent of some 300 dollars a year on something that's going to serve as a computer monitor. But the 24-inchers I have now do the job pretty well. (But if it wasn't for that license stuff, I would have bought a 36er or something like that. 40 starts getting a bit too big in my opinion, at least for 1080p resolutions.)

[Witchking]

Well...I did plan for a monitor last year....got the sony PS3 3d tv (22") and that died...so I used the money of its return (Best buy gift card) to buy the TM warthog. I am going to wait and see for this upcoming boxing day sales when TV's and monitors go on huge sales to pick one up. I don't have a TV either (once again...grad student who has no idea where he will end up next year)...so I might get a 30-35" one...a nice medium sized TV.

[falcon_120]

I wish air targets could be more visible,a good human eye should have no problems seeing a fighter at 8mn or more against a clear sky.In dcs world I find that a challenge.

[ishtmail]

I wish air targets could be more visible,a good human eye should have no problems seeing a fighter at 8mn or more against a clear sky.In dcs world I find that a challenge.

 

1st: resolution of a human eye is a bit bigger than that of a regular computer monitor

2nd: to get that picture on a computer monitor to 1:1 scale, you would need quite a big monitor. An airplane at 8 miles distance on a 24inch monitor (where you sit about a half a meter away from the monitor) is quite a bit smaller than in real life.

 

So, what we need is a monitor size that would get us up to scale (say, a 40 incher, where 1cm on the monitor would be equivalent to 1cm in real life, as seen from the same distance), AND a monitor resolution at the Retina display quality, where the resolution is so high that it's impossible for a human eye to see individual pixels (which would effectively mean you don't need any AntiAliasing to see smooth edges on the screen).

 

Only then would we be able to compare the virtual world to the real one.

 

At this point, it's not DCS but the monitor technology that needs to step up.

There are some 27-inch displays capable of throwing 2560×1440 resolutions, which is (at a normal viewing distance) enough for a 'retina display' quality. Prices range from 800 to 1300 USD.

Dell and HP have nice 30'' displays with the native resolution of 2560 x 1600. The price tag is at about 1500 USD (atleast over here).

 

Larger displays don't exist with this kind of resolution, and the reason is simple: anything larger than 30'' is usually bought as a TV set, and you don't watch a TV from 50-100 cm distance, you watch it from 3-5 metres away. That's why TVs are currently stuck at HD resolutions.

[EtherealN]

I wish air targets could be more visible,a good human eye should have no problems seeing a fighter at 8mn or more against a clear sky.In dcs world I find that a challenge.

 

Sourcing on that, please... :P

 

My eyes aren't the best, roughly average, and my experience is that at 8nm I have a hard time even with airliners.

 

The biggest problem with the human eye in spotting aircraft is, however, not just resolution-based. The question of eye resolution is a huge subject that cannot be compared directly to screen resolutions, in part because the eye only has that good resolution in a very narrow FOV. To top it off there's also a lot of "processing" that goes on with our sight, meaning that we can see things that aren't there and also not se things that are there. (Visual cortex does a lot of anticipatory processing - this is why, when a magician fakes throwing an item between his hands, you actually see it move even when it didn't. Exactly the same thing that we subject dogs to when we fake throwing the ball, actually, as well; the dog does see the ball leave our hand even when it didn't.)

 

The topic is ancient and I don't think it'll be solved here either, but saying "no problems" on seeing a fighter at 8nm is something I definitely take issue with.

[Hamblue]

Agreed,

A good example is the airliner. How many times have any one of us heard the engines of an airliner, looked up, and had problems finding it?

Typically they fly about 6 miles up and are several times larger than the average fighter.

Also if you have flown in an airliner and looked out the window for a while sometims you'll see another aircraft. Chances are that for every one you see, there are dozens you don't, especially the ones lower than you.

[EtherealN]

Another example would be the amount of times I've had our airforce do training flights overhead, where I've been able to hear them, I've been able to see their contrails, but the actual aircraft? Nope. Only reason I knew it was them was because I know the sound of those engines very well, and I highly doubt anyone but them would be up there training combat maneuvers. :P

 

(Though truth be told, there have been times when Ive seen airliners do stuff that really made me wonder. Once had a 737 doing circles at ~400 meters AGL in the middle of nowhere while I was passing by, way long from any airpoirts or established holding points.)

[Frostie]

Another example would be the amount of times I've had our airforce do training flights overhead,

Do you demand this often and why are they so compliant. :D

[EtherealN]

Lol, hm, choice of words might have been inexact there. :P

 

But yeah, our airport has like 2-3 flights per day plus the mail flight at night, so the air force can take advantage of uncontrolled airspace here, making deconfliction with civilian stuff much easier. There is a flight lane for international flights overhead, but they sort this through boxing airspace above and below it, leaving a few thousand feet for the airliners.