Why do convoys just split and stop when attacked?

[maturin]

Fuselages arent bullet proof, canopies arent bullet proof.

 

Well, unless they are.

 

A single round downing an A10 or Su25 is pretty long odds, and anything faster and more fragile will be using standoff weapons anyways.

[EtherealN]

But a single round can definitely damage the plane quite well. All a question of where it hits.

 

A-10 fuselage, for example, is thin metal sheets. There is no problem taking a normal service rifle and shooting out important electronics with it. The Titanium tub protects the pilot, not electronics, hydraulics etcetera etcetera.

 

This is what is called a "mission kill". You make the hostile no longer combat effective, and for the purposes of the ongoing engagement there's no difference between what you just did and vaporising the plane; he's no longer shooting at you, and you can now continue about your business.

[maturin]

I never said it wasn't possible, just that there are long odds, from the point of view of someone deciding whether to risk his life shooting at a plane or finding some better cover. And if you get a good shot on the electronics and achieve a mission kill, it's going to happen after a world of hurt has come down on you. I congratulate that gunner who can land a hit with his ears ringing from the rockets and HE rounds landing all around.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that a convoy without dedicated AA (for example, Russian forces after first emerging from the Roki tunnel in 2008) is pretty ****ed, and the possibility of a mission kill is slim. 12.7mm is practically no threat in DCS unless I'm being careless.

[dumgrunt]

Like has already been stated, security elements don't stay in the immediate proximity of the convoy.

 

It's called mutual support.

 

In real life self preservation takes hold than it does in a sim. if you at on the ground you know if you don't shoot at the air craft making a run on your position, you are toast.

 

If you are in the aircraft and you know there is a wall of trace coming a you, it will certainly take your mind off breakfast.

 

Frankly I'd be more worried about indirect fire than an air strike.

[EtherealN]

Well, you've had actual ground troops tell you that shooting back is exactly what they'd do (and in some cases - have done) when under air attack.

 

The problem here isn't that units disperse in DCS. The problem is that people don't dismount their vehicles, pick up their stingers, machineguns and service rifles from inside the trucks, and send some fun stuff right back at you. Similarly, it's not a question about a single rifle being fired once and taking out the A-10. It's a case of a whole lot of guys being trained in how to fire against an incoming aircraft. I know one interview I saw where such an engagement was recounted where the second plane incoming (they never saw the first) had thousands of rounds fired at it.

 

In reality said convoy would quickly be transformed into a distributed area where tonnes of guys are spread in whatever cover is available around the road they were traversing, all looking for you and hoping to at least give you something in return.

 

No, it's not like they have good odds against an A-10 if they don't have stingers/iglas (which we have, in the thread, been told they actually would have - and I'm sure you'll agree that MANPAD is a serious threat to A-10s :) ). But to not disperse could easily be even worse, for the reasons mentioned:

 

1) Continuing to drive would make it easier to do greater damage in a single pass.

2) Driving means whatever weapons the convoy does have will be even less effective, and secondary weaponry carried onboard (like MANPAD) cannot be used at all. This without giving any meaningful hindrance to the attacker's ability to hit.

3) Bad odds at successful defence are better than no chance at all.

 

That such a convoy is in deep trouble has never been objected to. But it is in LESS trouble if it does what has been described.

[Megagoth1702]

Stop and Deploy to template has about a 60 second timeout. If the unit doesn't reach the designated position after a minute it will just stop in place. Which is actually kind of nice because its a good way to create a very random location if you use multiple templates and choose them randomly.

 

Roger, thanks.

[SkateZilla]

But a single round can definitely damage the plane quite well. All a question of where it hits.

 

A-10 fuselage, for example, is thin metal sheets. There is no problem taking a normal service rifle and shooting out important electronics with it. The Titanium tub protects the pilot, not electronics, hydraulics etcetera etcetera.

 

This is what is called a "mission kill". You make the hostile no longer combat effective, and for the purposes of the ongoing engagement there's no difference between what you just did and vaporising the plane; he's no longer shooting at you, and you can now continue about your business.

 

that's what i was gonna say.

 

Fuselage isnt B.F., the Pilot's Bucket is. The Canopy.. Maybe, to a normal rifle

 

you can still hit the components.

 

which in DCS it's pretty well modeled.

 

Fly on SimHQ's Server when it runs the Highway. and when you fly over the waypoints above the actual highway with lines of Enemy Trucks. They shoot at you with 50.Cal and other Vehicle mounted machine guns. and I can tell you it does damage. and you will not be able to effectively do anything until you land and repair the damage.

[Megagoth1702]

 

Fly on SimHQ's Server when it runs the Highway. and when you fly over the waypoints above the actual highway with lines of Enemy Trucks. They shoot at you with 50.Cal and other Vehicle mounted machine guns. and I can tell you it does damage. and you will not be able to effectively do anything until you land and repair the damage.

 

 

 

I have never seen a truck with a 50cal on top in DCS before. :-/ Whicn ones are there? All I see is transport.

[SkateZilla]

I have never seen a truck with a 50cal on top in DCS before. :-/ Whicn ones are there? All I see is transport.

 

 

Oops, they were BTRs.

 

[maturin]

That still leaves aside the fact that I don't need to enter the kill zone if I don't want to. Even the Su-25's weaker 30mm cannon can sneak in a Shilka kill from maximum range every now and then.

[BaD CrC]

Pretty interesting topic guys. It's great to read exchanges between professionals and ED testers/dev.

 

Speed, I love your suggestion to 'deploy to template'. Will try this in my next MP mission. Do you think there's a way, once the convoy stops, to deploy infantry around? This would require to activate infantry group at vehicle's location. I would love to see infantry leaving vehicles and firing back at you.

[ENO]

If you have a template for 12 and a convoy of 8 will it just randomly fill in 8 of the 12 spots or will it just not work? It's a neat concept. Once the threat clears do they just regroup and go?

[Stuka]

If you have a template for 12 and a convoy of 8 will it just randomly fill in 8 of the 12 spots or will it just not work? It's a neat concept. Once the threat clears do they just regroup and go?

 

If I understand it correctly, the deploy to template is always "building" around the nr 1 vehicle in the group.

If that is destroyed, the 2nd vehicle becomes the "nr 1" in the group, and the template deploys around that one.

Same of course for vehicles in the middle of the group.

 

So practical: You have a group of 1 command vehicle, and 6 artillery pieces, and you create a template with the command vehicle in a certain position and the arty pieces 500 feet in front of it on one line.

If the first unit (the command vehicle) is destroyed before they deployed to template, one of the arty pieces (the 2nd unit in the group) will take the position of the command unit, and the others will form a line like before. (-1)

[Heli Shed]

It's actually called a herring bone, and it's one of two main possible actions on if you are contacted whilest in a convoy.

 

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Edited December 19, 2012 by Tyger

[joey45]

QFT!

.....Man I can still feel the brass-burns :megalol:

 

THE PAIN, THE PAIN!!

[dumgrunt]

I would have given him a mine probe and told him to get the bloody thing!

[maturin]

I have no idea how that story is even remotely relevant, but it's hilarious!

[dumgrunt]

Which is exactly what he attempted to do. However, as he was also a squadron pilot like myself, that option was unavailable to him.

 

And we in the Corps have a term for mine probe: bayonet. Or Ka-Bar....

 

.... Or MRE spoon, rifle cleaning rod.... Eh whatever.

 

squadron pilot? as in air crew?

 

Yeah, in the grunts using a bayonet was the SOP, however in Cav we get ceramic prodders to counter magnetic anti tampering detonators. cars are great fro stashing all manner of superfluous crap.

 

rat pack spoon that was sharpened to a point is good idea but.

[ZaltysZ]

It would be nice, if vehicle had another checkbox; [ ] MANPAD. So that, little MANPAD soldier would pop up near vehicle the moment it takes defensive position. Of course, that little soldier should get back into vehicle, once vehicle decides to return to formation.

[Bricks]

It would be nice, if vehicle had another checkbox; [ ] MANPAD. So that, little MANPAD soldier would pop up near vehicle the moment it takes defensive position. Of course, that little soldier should get back into vehicle, once vehicle decides to return to formation.

 

The idea is great, but not every truck or jeep has a stinger ready to fire. It would be nice to have that option, though. Maybe just in form of checkboxes: AA-Infantry, AT-Infantry, Standard Infantry.

 

With the option of marking multiple types, you can simulate special forces or teams equipped with both.

[FlandersRevenge]

Good Topic! I've always wondered that myself, and it makes a hell of a lot of sense.

 

Plus, IRL you can't go through the burning hulks of vehicles now can you?

[dumgrunt]

Squadron is VMU-1. In our squadrons (VMU-1 through 4), we enlisted Marines fly the airplanes, plan the missions, run the comms, analyze the imagery we generate, drive the trucks, secure our own positions and pull security, and win freakin' wars.

 

Insofar as the ceramic prods are concerned, we never heard of such things then. If we wanted something nonmagnetic, it was called "wooden stick".

 

Ah right, a RISTA sqn i take it then. I'd summarise what you just wrote to one word. "soldiering" :smilewink: (although UAV's are not something in our equipment entitlement. so you've got me there)

 

wooden sticks eh? i thought we got shitty gear :lol:

Edited December 22, 2012 by dumgrunt
can't spell. check username

[BoneSaw]

I would be surprised to hear than infantry are trained in futile exercises such as leading jets anyway.

 

 

Back in the 80s when I was trained as a 19D (Cav Scout) individual riflemen were, in fact, taught how to lead an oncoming plane. I wish I still had my soldiers manual cause there was even a drawing (we're cav scouts after all) :lol:

 

We were trained to aim right above the canopy for an inbound plane on a strafing run.

[ENO]

Yikes... unless you're shooting at a glider that sounds like a losing battle.

 

In reality- and no disrespect guys- we teach guys a lot of stuff in schools in my discipline that most will never actually be able to apply in real life... that may have worked at some point but are more just preached to encourage guys to look at their tool from the task side instead of the tool side. Gets guys to stop thinking of a tool as just a tool and to start using it in a fashion that may disrespect the conventional purpose of that tool. Helps to encourage creative thinking and dynamic problem resolution...

 

So really, in modern combat are they still teaching people to lay on their back and fire as small as 5.56 mm up in the air as an aircraft is orientated to do nothing other than a strafing run with something to the tune of 23-30mm? Is that just "stand and fight" bravado or has anyone seen anything like that actually work in combat?

 

Not disrespecting- guys... I get it... I'm just wondering if it's a tactic taught in theory or a practical holdover from another era.

[dumgrunt]

Yeah with that line of thinking, why would you instruct a cook or a clerk how to bayonet fight? Not likely to need it right? but they do. And that's not even addressing the wider 'academic" question of why do we even teach bayonet fighting at all still?

And while avoiding the bleeding obvious that War is inherently unpredictable and people will sometimes find themselves in a situation outside of their normal role.

 

In Timor, we had pogs (as in truckwits, clerks, loggies etc) conducting fighting patrols because all the arm's corps elements were tied up elsewhere. And the early interfet days were pretty hairy, not withstanding the serious concern that the TNI would intervene.

 

Obviously if you have an elevated threat of an air attack, you are meant to have a point defence detachment allocated to you. But as illustrated above, what you should get/be doing don't always marry up with the task that needs to be achieved.

 

And in that event that you are on the receiving end of an incoming airstrike, like all times you are under direct (assupposed to indirect) fire, the worst thing you can do is not shoot back. because all you are doing by not shooting is making his life easier, your life more likely to end, and absolutely solidifying your loss of the initiative.

 

Oh, and, in Vietnam, an F-111 was shot down by a single 7.62 round, or so it was reported, but i'm sure someone here was "there". I think it was refered as the million dollar BB.

Edited December 23, 2012 by dumgrunt