Missle launch warning on the RWR

[NineLine]

Maybe a better system would add aircraft to radar that are not there? Speaking hypothetically of course :)

[danilop]

Hold on, I'm not asking for the system in DCS! :D

 

Just saying that fake launching could have some real world application if it was implemented ...

 

Maybe a better system would add aircraft to radar that are not there? Speaking hypothetically of course :)

 

:megalol:

[winz]

Whenever someone wishes an option there IS always a point. Why not put a real missle - it will have 90+% miss chance.

In DCS it can be very useful to "fake a launch" in many situations:

If you can shoot, you shoot. There is no reason why not to launch, when you can launch, even if it a low pk shot. I kinda uderstand the gamers attitude at preserving their inventory. But that is not how it works irl. None of the staff will give you hard time for firing a missile with low pk when you had a valid launch solution, they would however gave you hard time for not firing a missile when you had the chance.

[Cmptohocah]

Ok guys,

 

I see this topic is straying a bit off, but I still can't but notice how much ridicule my idea has come across.

 

Faking an missile launch has multiple advantages, one of which is not leting the enemy know when and if you have launched the SARH for real. Imagine a 30.000ft altitude engagement with a Su27 encountering an F-15 in a BVR on a multiplayer server (or RL) for that matter. What is F-15 going to do after getting a launch warning is brake the lock and then re-engage, this leaves the Su27 pilot with 4 chances to shoot down at best, but rather deter the eagle for a brief number of seconds. So using a high altitude engagement tactics with a Su27 leaves you with a one minute capability to neutralize the enemy and then it's either RTB or 'low altitude militia' tactics.

 

Faking an actual launch is equivalent to f-15 sending 120s in TWS-supprise and confuse the enemy. Why spend money on throwing away 27ERs when you can 'engage the enemy' with this mode and then when conditions allow send a real 27ER to do the job more effectivly. Enemy is certainly going to react to a lauch warning-trust you me.

[GGTharos]

Faking an missile launch has multiple advantages, one of which is not leting the enemy know when and if you have launched the SARH for real.

 

It has been imagined and rejected. You shoot real missiles.

 

Imagine a 30.000ft altitude engagement with a Su27 encountering an F-15 in a BVR on a multiplayer server (or RL) for that matter. What is F-15 going to do after getting a launch warning is brake the lock and then re-engage,

 

No, he's not, because you're not getting the first shot in your Su-27 whether you want it or not. Your 'fake launch' signals will merely trigger the automated jammer and break your lock, so now you can't even launch for real.

 

this leaves the Su27 pilot with 4 chances to shoot down at best, but rather deter the eagle for a brief number of seconds. So using a high altitude engagement tactics with a Su27 leaves you with a one minute capability to neutralize the enemy and then it's either RTB or 'low altitude militia' tactics.

 

... and while you're snickering about him reacting to your fake launch, he's dragging you just like he would for your real launch, and his wingman is sticking 120's in your entire flight.

 

Faking an actual launch is equivalent to f-15 sending 120s in TWS-supprise and confuse the enemy. Why spend money on throwing away 27ERs when you can 'engage the enemy' with this mode and then when conditions allow send a real 27ER to do the job more effectivly. Enemy is certainly going to react to a lauch warning-trust you me.

 

Because shooting R-27ER's have greater than 0% possibility of destroying your enemy. Meanwhile, you're comitting your radar to the useless act of faking a launch with 0Pk thinking it gains you something more than activating the other guy's jammer. And at the same time, you're thinking that a real missile isn't coming back at you ... to which you must react. ANd now, those 15's are coming back fangs hanging while you're dancing with 120's, and they have no threats to deal with.

 

Quit thinking 1v1's and games, think larger engagements and electronic warfare. Faking launches is nothing short of wasting your time.

[159th_Viper]

Why not?

 

Because sooner or later some fast-jet jockey is going to fake it when he should have nailed it........

 

Reminds me of the Mudhen drivers wondering why they could not get winder-lock on a Mig-29........Should not have fiddled with the audio knob :music_whistling:

Edited January 15, 2013 by 159th_Viper

[GGTharos]

Wasn't that the F-14 guy against the MiG-23 in Gulf of Sidra? :D

[159th_Viper]

Nope - backseater in a Mudhen :D

 

Gulf War.

[GGTharos]

Interesting, never heard of that one; I thought the mudhens never got anywhere near an A2A engagement other than bombing helis.

[159th_Viper]

I'll get the details and let you know - on my Kindle at home.

[159th_Viper]

Quick look - January 1991, opening night of the war. Mig engaged by one F-15E who launched a sidewinder and missed. Mig then engaged later by another Mudhen, the 'no lock' boy. Lucky Mig driver, later splashed by SAM?

 

Month later they vapourized the Hind.

[GGTharos]

Thanks for the info :D

[71st_Mastiff]

I own a Radar/laser Warning Receiver in my car..

 

 

Works quite well. :thumbup::smartass:

[Sov13t]

I own a Radar/laser Warning Receiver in my car..

 

 

Works quite well. :thumbup::smartass:

 

Now get a laser range finder and "fake" launch on bandit vehicles.

[Dudikoff]

I see this topic is straying a bit off, but I still can't but notice how much ridicule my idea has come across.

 

Faking an missile launch has multiple advantages, one of which is not leting the enemy know when and if you have launched the SARH for real.

 

Maybe you should have noticed some of the responses, too? To launch a SARH missile, you need to lock the target with the STT radar mode which initiates the CW illumination of the target and its RWR blinks, but they can't tell if the missile is really incoming or not. So, you can already "fake" this, but to a single target only because the CW beam is very narrow and while doing this you are technically blind to what the other enemy planes are doing.

 

Now, what exactly would your "fake launch" do exactly that's not already out there and how would it be realized technically?

[Dudikoff]

Now get a laser range finder and "fake" launch on bandit vehicles.

 

Fake police radar scans? Now that's something that actually can be useful..

[Cmptohocah]

Maybe you should have noticed some of the responses, too? To launch a SARH missile, you need to lock the target with the STT radar mode which initiates the CW illumination of the target and its RWR blinks, but they can't tell if the missile is really incoming or not.

 

I've disscused this in my initial post ;)

[Dudikoff]

I've disscused this in my initial post ;)

 

The point that I'm trying to get accross is that the SARH missile launch normally doesn't trigger the enemy RWR, STT lock of given strength (i.e. range) and time does that and the target doesn't really know if the missile is coming at it or not. Thus, every time you lock somebody with an STT lock, you have your "fake" launch.

 

Now, if some more modern RWRs are sensitive enough that they do detect the MCU signals to give an extra warning that a missile is actually in the air, I'd be happy to know more about how it actually works and what information it provides..

Edited January 16, 2013 by Dudikoff

[Tasmanian]

The point that I'm trying to get accross is that the SARH missile launch normally doesn't trigger the enemy RWR, STT lock of given strength (i.e. range) and time does that and the target doesn't really know if the missile is coming at it or not. Thus, every time you lock somebody with an STT lock, you have your "fake" launch.

 

Great. This makes sense. Reasons why "fake launch" is not implemented in reality can be this "missile launch normally doesn't trigger the enemy RWR" or this "every time you lock somebody with an STT lock, you have your "fake" launch".

[GGTharos]

Not really, modern PD monopulse missiles don't require CW waveforms, the radars transfer to HPRF, tune the missile and launch. As for those that do require CW, it's the switch from PD to CW that can trigger the warning, and the switch happens when you pull the trigger to launch and the missiles start tuning.

 

Any lock is considered a hostile action, because you know a missile is coming pretty soon after.

[Exorcet]

Whenever someone wishes an option there IS always a point. Why not put a real missle - it will have 90+% miss chance.

In DCS it can be very useful to "fake a launch" in many situations:

 

1.Head to head combat. Faking long before getting the target into launch envelope so he does not really know when the actual missle is launched (until visual). Can make him perform unnecessary maneuvers, use chaff or turn around.

 

A good pilot won't do anything he's not already doing if you're firing long before launch range. Even when people fire real missiles at me in the sim from a long distance, I don't take any special action, they just wasted a missile.

 

2.Chasing. Faking a launch makes him maneuver - makes it easier to catch up.

Same as above, unless they're close enough, I'll know not to bother. And ET's would be 1000 times better in this situation.

 

 

 

I have no idea about real aircraft but suspect that there is such a mode that simulates radar emissions as when missle launched at least for testing\training purposses. But since you are keeping the target locked anyway and this option can be used in combat to mask actual launch why not implement it? I am afraid only real fighters and designers know.

For one thing it would be completely outdated now in a world of TWS, datalinks, and AESA LPI radars.

[Cmptohocah]

Any lock is considered a hostile action, because you know a missile is coming pretty soon after.

 

In RL yes, in online play-not even close. I've even had people flying braking my lock 3-4 times after my R27ERs left the rails, only to ask me 'are you done shooting?' Then I have one option: RTB :)

[GGTharos]

In RL yes, in online play-not even close.

 

This is a flight simulator, not an online-play simulator.

 

I've even had people flying braking my lock 3-4 times after my R27ERs left the rails, only to ask me 'are you done shooting?' Then I have one option: RTB :)

 

That is your problem. There will be no fake-launch features just because you don't like running out of missiles. :)

[159th_Viper]

Then I have one option: RTB :)

 

Option #2: Shove a R-73 up his a$$.

 

After all those ER's you should be well WVR.

[blkspade]

This seems like a mostly stupid concept. I can realize a single scenario where this would be useful in terms of reality. Say a pilot finds himself being engaged with no support (wingman splashed) and no means to defend himself (winchester) and must extend. Say then that the engaging pilot means to end you and is closing on you as you attempt to extend. The usefulness here would be a short range rear firing beam based on RWR input, that would convince the committed pilot that he's being engaged by a craft he can't confirm on radar and thus choose to disengage.

 

Most real life pilots would not give chase in this manner but it has happened, particularly some hungry Israeli pilots looking to achieve ace status. I vaguely remember one of these accounts mentioned in "Dogfights of the Middle East", where he chased down his "Ace"" kill.