F-18 grip, WARTHOG compatible

[myHelljumper]

Of course there is that too. Especially if they have a full sim pit and multiple screens, I can see that - there's nothing like the actual touchy freely of switches. I know from my own experience with an almost full kinda replica A-10C pit which was my pride and joy for years. And Hegy will be doing full pits as well to satisfy those people which is excellent news too. There'll soon be something for everyone's needs.

Anyway, I'm not hijacking this thread with my own justification of my instant conversion to vr though so I'll leave it there.

 

All good.:thumbup:

[hansangb]

Maybe there are peoples that don't want any VR set...

 

 

Maybe for now. But in two years? After all, all the people who "can't ever go back to monitors" can't be all wrong, could they?

 

Same thing was said about horses vs cars. It's only a matter of time. Throw in hand tracking that can be used with pits, and it's game over.

[X93355]

Maybe for now. But in two years? After all, all the people who "can't ever go back to monitors" can't be all wrong, could they?

 

Same thing was said about horses vs cars. It's only a matter of time. Throw in hand tracking that can be used with pits, and it's game over.

 

Agreed, I have two computers and two rifts. Launched DCS in 4K and hated it, just doesn't get close enough to real flying as the Rift does. Give it 2 years and it will be even better. Give it 5 years and we will hopefully have 4K or better

[Farlander]

Give me a few grand and i'll do it..

 

Seriously, what makes you guys think VR and GTX xx70's or xx80's will suddenly be cheaper for people in a few years? Sure it's going to go down in price and many can get a cheaper set, but majority will still be playing on lesser systems with cheaper joistics looking for a tracking solution.

 

VR is currently 600ish$, Trackir is 120$.. See the difference? Yup you can buy a graphics card and trackir for the price of VR. On the other hand VR needs the best systems possible, and so you probably need a 1070 for 450$.

 

All odds are stacking against VR to become a mainstream product even for those who don't have the money to buy all the new components, flight gear etc..

[Shadow_1stVFW]

Give me a few grand and i'll do it..

 

Seriously, what makes you guys think VR and GTX xx70's or xx80's will suddenly be cheaper for people in a few years? Sure it's going to go down in price and many can get a cheaper set, but majority will still be playing on lesser systems with cheaper joistics looking for a tracking solution.

 

VR is currently 600ish$, Trackir is 120$.. See the difference? Yup you can buy a graphics card and trackir for the price of VR. On the other hand VR needs the best systems possible, and so you probably need a 1070 for 450$.

 

All odds are stacking against VR to become a mainstream product even for those who don't have the money to buy all the new components, flight gear etc..

Simple, look at the price drop in LED screens larger than 14 inches in the last 5 years. Between the American, European and Russian simulation communities and the rising popularity of space sims there is indeed a lot of evidence that VR will drop. You've got the technology moving into cell phones and gaming consoles. It's not a niche market. Graphics cards, sure, they will stay about the same. But VR is fine

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Beeroshima]

There are also multiple major players getting into VR while there are only 2 major brands of Graphics Card technology. Look at a 5 year old cell phone and todays newest brands and youll get an idea of the progress...

 

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

[Drakoz]

Be it 2 years, or 5 years, in a few years, the cost of a graphics card capable of driving VR will be cheap enough that it will be the norm (in 5 years, the $100 card will be equiv. to a GTX1080, and the $350 cards will put the GTX1080 to shame). That's not the issue. The cost of the VR headsets will be. That cost will likely drop rapidly over the next 5 years as well, to the point that in 5 years, people will probably be buying VR for the cost of Track IR (maybe $100 for the cheap version, or maybe the cheap version will be a cell phone in a VR headset, and $250+ for a high end version) and using it on their PC's that are already VR ready. VR will also likely be the norm on several major game consoles (no more TV for your xBox) which is what will drive the cost down and push the cheap version. Cheap VR is coming, faster than most people think, but not as fast we many would like.

 

The bigger issue for flight simmers is being able to see your real world environment through the VR. People who invest in extra controls to make the flight sim easier (not having to use the mouse for everything) will be blind reaching out for stuff they can't see. Technology to place our hands in the sim exists now and for cheap. We just need the sims to adopt it natively. That helps and for many, may be good enough to drop using real simpit controls, but it will never be the same as having a real set of controls for some things. I hope a "bleed through" view capability will be added to VR to allow us to quickly see the real world without having to take the head set off momentarily. But I expect such a thing won't happen - it will be viewed as too complicated. Which means flight simmers with extensive real controls or simpits will be out of luck, having to choose between their nice simpit controls, or the wonderment of VR.

 

Life is never perfect.

[Farlander]

Simple, look at the price drop in LED screens larger than 14 inches in the last 5 years. Between the American, European and Russian simulation communities and the rising popularity of space sims there is indeed a lot of evidence that VR will drop. You've got the technology moving into cell phones and gaming consoles. It's not a niche market. Graphics cards, sure, they will stay about the same. But VR is fine

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

Still good luck beating a single screen in price and performance.. Sure, it'll get more acessible, but you're still not going to get those guys barely got the money to get 1060's or 480's to get it.. too expensive. Everybody was telling me that all evidence looked like majority of people would be gaming on 4k monitors by now, yea.. right..

[Beeroshima]

Its not about "beating it".

 

Its about having a sufficient enough market share to justify its existance. Your single screen vs VR arent an exclusive result. Both can exist.

 

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

[Shadow_1stVFW]

Still good luck beating a single screen in price and performance.. Sure, it'll get more acessible, but you're still not going to get those guys barely got the money to get 1060's or 480's to get it.. too expensive. Everybody was telling me that all evidence looked like majority of people would be gaming on 4k monitors by now, yea.. right..

You're arguing that "people who can't afford it won't be able to afford it"... duh. But there is more to the bell curve also. Every new technology has people who can't afford it

I'm say (just like 4k is now) it will become a lot more accessible to the average user. VR isn't that far from achieving that now, in its first generation.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Drakoz]

(and as others just commented) VR will be driven by a whole cadre of new companies (or all the old ones grabbing a pice of the pie) trying to dive into the first real transition to computers, gaming, and entertainment since the Smart Phone became a thing. This isn't the minor update of a 4K monitor (which will be the norm eventually too). It is a paradigm change which will be driven mostly by console game companies, not PC games. And that is what will drive the price down for the PC as well.

 

Don't underestimate the feeding frenzy that will occur in the next 5 years. VR is a pivotal event in computer history that may very likely transform how people interact with their gaming devices. My concern isn't how soon and how cheap, but more that in the rush to out do each other, some companies might ruin VR by providing really cheap crap that just turns people off. I mean, the Samsung VR headset provides VR, but you don't hear anything about it. But if something like that became the norm, it could kill VR for the PC.

[Farlander]

Point is never that VR won't be a thing, i just doubt it's going to instantly take over fo tracking solutions in a matter of two years.. simply because of the expense..

 

5 years is probably a bit more reasonable.

[Farlander]

You're arguing that "people who can't afford it won't be able to afford it"... duh. But there is more to the bell curve also. Every new technology has people who can't afford it

I'm say (just like 4k is now) it will become a lot more accessible to the average user. VR isn't that far from achieving that now, in its first generation.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

For 600$ for a unit i would say it is a bit far from reaching it.. Next gen won't be the one to do it, maybe the one after will. it needs to be more like 350$-400$. This is the problem, yes a GTX 1080 will become alot cheaper in the future, but there's a reason for that, you'll simply need more to run games. For example, a GTX 670 costs alot less to get your hands on now than what it was on release, but it doesn't play the newly released games today nearly as well as it played the games it was released with back then..

 

It really depends on what kind of graphics card you'll need i think. If you need better than a rx480 or gtx 1060 price range card for running VR in the future, i do not think it will be adapted by the majority. Becasue, if you're building a computer then you'll need to drop some of the price for graphics card to afford a VR headset, and you might also want a screen in addition.

[hegykc]

And when they include hand gesture gloves with VR, is that going to be the end of joysticks and throttles??

 

What does VR have to do with replica controllers for planes with 200+ inputs and study flight sims? How are you going to do your start up, shut down and in flight management? My latest prototype is a CDU unit, how does VR compete with that, or vice versa? This is not War thunder, Cliffs of Dover or Il-2 Sturmovik. Not that there's anything wrong with those. I for sure am going to be flying them on VR. But I still need a physical simpit to fly my F-18, F-14and other study level sims.

 

VR is for the masses, millions of gamers. I'm here to satisfy the demand of a few hundred to a thousand serious fliers wanting to learn and enjoy procedures and physical realism. There is no way for VR to replace that, even if it were priced at 99$. It would be bought in addition to a full simpit, and used with point-and-shoot flying sims.

 

How on earth are you going to control a RIO or WSO seat position, who's only job is to flip switches and push buttons?

Edited September 22, 2016 by hegykc

[Thadiun Okona]

When pass through stereoscopic cameras are the norm in VR and they can operate in AR mode they will be quite compelling with physical cockpits not to mention upcoming AR devices.

 

All the buttons/switches/tactile inputs would still be there and in full use, but now your 'canopy' and 'instrument faces' and 'mfd' displays etc can just be green screen.

 

It will be glorious, and physical cockpits are here to stay and I dare say will become even more popular as super immersive builds will req much less work than we have to do now, especially once gesture mapping is dialed in enough that you don't even need to wire any switches/pots, just provide the kinematics...

 

That's where I see it heading anyhow.

[Drakoz]

hegykc, exactly my point (and the only reason I responded to the VR conversation in your thread about sim controls, as it is off topic). VR does not play well with sim controls like what you are building. But because VR will likely become a big deal for main stream gamers, it will further alienate flight simmers from the rest of the gaming world. Maybe, maybe not. But it will have some impact.

 

Most people I've talked to who use VR love it. The realism that comes from 3D vision when flying a helicopter near the ground for example, is _very_ compelling. Perhaps less so for fixed wing unless you fly near the ground. So VR could take us away from nice simpit controls like what you are making, hegykc. For serious simpit builders, no. But maybe for the people who are half and half like me (I'm not going to build a complex simpit, but I do try to use multiple controls to enhance the experience), I have a choice to make. If I go VR, it means I will be using fewer real simpit controls, and more virtual controls in the sim instead (clickable cockpits).

 

Take the A10 CDU you are building. That is an example of something I would probably buy if I don't use VR because it is a complex control that is a pain in the butt to do with a mouse. But with VR and the technology that uses a pair of IR cameras to see your real hands and put them in the sim, now all of a sudden I can do the CDU with my hands and fingers. No more pain using a mouse.

 

I am talking about the Leap Motion product. Sims don't directly support it yet, but if they do, it will be a game changer for using VR instead of a simpit. In the mean time, Leap Motion provides basic support by turning your hands into a mouse in a creative way. All this works without special gloves or sensors on your hand.

https://www.leapmotion.com

 

So simmers will fall into two categories. VR simmers who have minimal to no simpit controls, and simpit people that can't use VR because they can't see their simpits. Well, the 3rd category are people that just fly around with a joystick and use the mouse for everything else. But those people aren't likely to buy VR or simput controls.

[Goblin]

How are you going to do your start up, shut down and in flight management? My latest prototype is a CDU unit, how does VR compete with that, or vice versa?

 

...............

 

How on earth are you going to control a RIO or WSO seat position, who's only job is to flip switches and push buttons?

 

A mouse, or touchpad, works great in VR.

It also has the added bonus of not needing different hardware for each different aircraft module.

 

A full size real cockpit with a 360 dome projection screen would be better than VR, but few people have the space available for more than one cockpit.

[Haukka81]

And when they include hand gesture gloves with VR, is that going to be the end of joysticks and throttles??

 

What does VR have to do with replica controllers for planes with 200+ inputs and study flight sims? How are you going to do your start up, shut down and in flight management? My latest prototype is a CDU unit, how does VR compete with that, or vice versa? This is not War thunder, Cliffs of Dover or Il-2 Sturmovik. Not that there's anything wrong with those. I for sure am going to be flying them on VR. But I still need a physical simpit to fly my F-18, F-14and other study level sims.

 

VR is for the masses, millions of gamers. I'm here to satisfy the demand of a few hundred to a thousand serious fliers wanting to learn and enjoy procedures and physical realism. There is no way for VR to replace that, even if it were priced at 99$. It would be bought in addition to a full simpit, and used with point-and-shoot flying sims.

 

How on earth are you going to control a RIO or WSO seat position, who's only job is to flip switches and push buttons?

 

Mouse. Works really fine least in DCS with rift ;)

 

Im happy with mouse :thumbup:

[hegykc]

Haha right, in that case no one need anything cause there's a mouse and keyboard. No VR, no controllers.

 

It's like saying I'm an 4x4 off road fanatic and I can't wait to get that 4x4 jeep. Gotta have that 4x4 jeep man. Oh wait, look a motorcycle, oh I'm definitely going with that, I don't even have room for a 4x4 :) Were you really an off road fanatic? No. If you want a simpit, you know it. If you're wondering do you need a simpit, you don't want it.

 

Or here's a better one. WarThunder/IL2 will eliminate the need for DCS, it is just simpler/cheaper etc. Better graphics, less hassle. Well, are you all flying those and only those? Didn't think so :)

Save

Edited September 22, 2016 by hegykc

[hansangb]

They are not mutually exclusive. I can look out of my Rift just find to find the buttons/switches on my throttle. Not that I need to look too hard. Do you guys all stare at the keyboard when typing? Didn't think so.

 

simpits are fabulous. About as close to the real thing as possible. But w/o the sense of speed. Without the sense of height. Without the sense of movement. Without the sense of being there other than the physical controls. And yet, I still covet it. Because it's a passion. When I read the Cockpit sub-thread, I am in awe of those who have the passion to create works of art (you included hegykc) Despite that, if someone put a gut to my head and forced me to choose, I would go with VR. But, again, they are not mutually exclusive.

 

When plasma's first hit the scene, 40" unit was $12K USD. When the first VCR came about, they were $2K or more. The only thing that doesn't change is that premium computer for gaming will *always* cost $3K.

 

That was the case when Compaq released one of the first 386 boxes. When the first 486 came out. When Alienware hit the scene. And it's what it costs to build a premium 4K and VR capable DCS PC.

 

Again, if you try it, you'll know what the ruckus is all about.

Edited September 23, 2016 by hansangb

[Thisdale]

 

Again, if you try it, you'll know what the ruckus is all about.

 

+1

[Goblin]

Haha right, in that case no one need anything cause there's a mouse and keyboard. No VR, no controllers.

 

Well, no, you don't have to use replica cockpit parts in DCS. It's totally possible to use a mouse to interact with the clickable cockpit. And this works even better in VR than with a TiR.

 

But, exact replica cockpit parts, like the ones you're designing, do have a use together with VR and HMDs. Because of the 3D effect in VR you get a very precise feel for where the switch you're looking at, should be in reality. It's hard to explain, but when I look at a switch in VR, my eyes tell my brain, that again tell my hand, where that switch is. So I can reach out with my hand, without seeing it, and still find that swich, if it's there in the real world, and placed correctly in relation to the virtual cockpit that you see in VR.

 

The guy that let me try his Oculus Rift was testing this concept by building a test cockpit with real controllers, for use with VR. He also has two real fighter cockpits that he has integrated into P3D.

[Deadman]

not all of his parts are "exact replica cockpit parts" there is some SWAG (scientific wild-ass guess ) in there as well

 

Well, no, you don't have to use replica cockpit parts in DCS. It's totally possible to use a mouse to interact with the clickable cockpit. And this works even better in VR than with a TiR.

 

But, exact replica cockpit parts, like the ones you're designing, do have a use together with VR and HMDs. Because of the 3D effect in VR you get a very precise feel for where the switch you're looking at, should be in reality. It's hard to explain, but when I look at a switch in VR, my eyes tell my brain, that again tell my hand, where that switch is. So I can reach out with my hand, without seeing it, and still find that swich, if it's there in the real world, and placed correctly in relation to the virtual cockpit that you see in VR.

 

The guy that let me try his Oculus Rift was testing this concept by building a test cockpit with real controllers, for use with VR. He also has two real fighter cockpits that he has integrated into P3D.

[Goblin]

not all of his parts are "exact replica cockpit parts" there is some SWAG (scientific wild-ass guess ) in there as well

 

Ok, I haven't seen any of them IRL, just what's posted here and what hegykc writes about them.

[Haukka81]

Haha right, in that case no one need anything cause there's a mouse and keyboard. No VR, no controllers.

 

It's like saying I'm an 4x4 off road fanatic and I can't wait to get that 4x4 jeep. Gotta have that 4x4 jeep man. Oh wait, look a motorcycle, oh I'm definitely going with that, I don't even have room for a 4x4 :) Were you really an off road fanatic? No. If you want a simpit, you know it. If you're wondering do you need a simpit, you don't want it.

 

Or here's a better one. WarThunder/IL2 will eliminate the need for DCS, it is just simpler/cheaper etc. Better graphics, less hassle. Well, are you all flying those and only those? Didn't think so :)

Save

 

LOL , why are you so sensitive ?

 

I just say that i dont't need cockpit parts, and i like to use mouse with rift in dcs.

 

And btw, i have simpit (mfd cougars , 4 monitors etc.. for years , but now its useless. Only seat and hotas + mouse for rift now.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Haukka81