Starter Button

[cichlidfan]

:smartass:

 

...and the option is only $1000.00. :D

[Lord_Pyro]

 

as it will stop me using 100% accurate checklists and procedures.

 

Cowboy10uk

 

Westernstyle of Flighteducation....

I do certainly understand the use of checklists but we are talking about the huey here. You really wan't to tell me you are using a checklist for the startup? Next to the Mustang it is the quickest in DCS, you see it once and are done. So what are you looking at on your lists? The time it takes to look down probably doubles the overall startuptime.

Immersion is one thing but i cant imagine that real pilots would start the huey by a checklist. There are so few switches and systems, thes know what thwy are for and have started them houndreds of times, like you probably do... Naahh i'm not buying this.

[Sundowner.pl]

The problem is - there is no system in place in the DCS that would force you to act like a real pilot, there is no persistence in the aircraft state and mistreating it in one flight does not affect the next one. There is no randomness in the aircraft subsystems wear and effectiveness. Each flight we start with brand new machine. We can overheat, overtorque, and brake everything that will not affect safe landing at the end of the mission - and we still can fly the next mission as if nothing happened.

 

If at the next mission helicopter would under-perform, or was still in maintenance because of our mishandling it last time - that's when the checklists would be needed.

[heloguy]

Immersion is one thing but i cant imagine that real pilots would start the huey by a checklist. There are so few switches and systems, thes know what thwy are for and have started them houndreds of times, like you probably do... Naahh i'm not buying this.

 

If we're talking U.S. Army pilots on a checkride, then yes, they definitely use the checklist, or they are failed by the instructor pilot (it's in a regulation that the checklist will be used. But, on a real mission, especially something like a QRF, or MEDEVAC, no way.

 

Actually, I would be interested to know that if you fly this thing for a year, and don't use the checklist to start, how many times you forget to take the starter/generator switch to STBY GEN after starting the engine. Just one of those things that an IP would look for if a guy is starting the helo. In a UH-60, I have guys do that kind of stuff even when they're using the checklist, just because they're going too fast through it.

[hansangb]

Definitely will not be buying till they correct that. Putting in fake controls, or putting them in incorrect positions totally kill any sale to me.

 

If I want crap like that, I'll just buy Arma or FC3.

 

 

Good lord. Are you for real? Let's do a quick sanity check shall we?

 

1) Same decibel level rotor sound? No? Garbage ...don't buy it.

2) ButtKicker like transducer to simulate the vibration? No? garbage, don't buy it.

3) Can you reload the M60 realistically? No? Garbage ...don't buy it.

4) Does it come with asbestos gloves to help change out hot barrels? No? Garbage ...don't buy it.

5) You can only use authentic helmets to communicate? No? Garbage ...don't buy it.

6) Realistic refueling? No? Garbage ...don't buy it.

7) Can't fly due to mechanical issues and need to wait for parts? No? Garbage ...don't buy it.

8) Will it take six months of training to fly the sim? No? Garbage ...don't buy it.

 

 

In the meantime, I am going to enjoy the hell out of this *game*. Call it what you will, it's a GAME. It's not a $500,000 simulator used to teach pilots how to fly.

 

I've used SIMNET simulated battles in the Army. A *real* simulator takes into account all the little things. It's modeled to a real vehicle to every last detail. But that costs $$$$. This is one of the most fun piece of software I've had the pleasure of "driving" So if the starter button misplacement is *that* important to you....and you refuse to buy it, that's your prerogative. But you're really missing out. You really are.

 

hsb

[HuggyBear]

... how many times you forget to take the starter/generator switch to STBY GEN after starting the engine.

 

Interestingly (maybe :) ) the Australian Army checklist had us leave that switch in the Starter position.

 

The main reason was the idea that during an engine restart attempt following an engine failure, it was one less thing to forget during an already exciting event.

 

Another reason was that it would prevent generator switching if the Main was running at a lower voltage than the Standby (which it shouldn't do if things are set correctly).

 

Was surprised when I saw that the -10 was different as we normally just cut and paste.

 

- Bear

[dahui]

The problem is - there is no system in place in the DCS that would force you to act like a real pilot, there is no persistence in the aircraft state and mistreating it in one flight does not affect the next one. There is no randomness in the aircraft subsystems wear and effectiveness. Each flight we start with brand new machine. We can overheat, overtorque, and brake everything that will not affect safe landing at the end of the mission - and we still can fly the next mission as if nothing happened.

 

If at the next mission helicopter would under-perform, or was still in maintenance because of our mishandling it last time - that's when the checklists would be needed.

 

You mean like the DODO 206 in FSX?

 

That would be intresting in a Campaign...

Ok, when you are i a Battle, and get some bullets, you will probably need a fixed Machine... Holes in the Airframe ok, it shows how badass you are, but not in a Combustion Chamber :p xD

[Lord_Pyro]

I am not against checklists in general, i agree that in some planes like a hornet you certainly need them. But the huey doesn't need much steps to run ok. And even in the hornet you would probably develope an own systems of performing things, without missing stuff. In the A10 it took me about 5 to 10 startups, same goes for f16.

Huey was only one, Mustang 2.

 

Problem with all this checklistbehaviour i have is that it transmittes the feeling to me that ppl don't know what they are doing or don't understand the reasons/ technical backgrounds for it. But maybe it's just my countrys heritage xD

Our pilots were a bit surprised/schocked as they started training with the usaf. Literally everything they should do was supported by checklists. Before these days every pilot received a personal instruction about the plane he was flying, covering detailed information for the startup. Then there might have been some aiding signs in the pit but if training was over it was expected that the pilot could start the plane without any further guidance.

But one mustn't forget about the roots of the checklists. It was to strap even some farmerboys with not much education in the cockpit and thus raising the amount of planes beeing in the air at the same time in ww2. Overwhelming the enemy by sheer numbers. Logically you cant use only graduated personnell if you have to put many pilots in the air.

Btw germany started a similiar programme with their He162 which was so simple that even HJ children or or Volkssturmgramps were supposed to fly them. Every important limitation was written in the cockpit and a superior speed was thought to neglect the need of proper training. Shoot at them, then outrun them and get home :)

[Sundowner.pl]

Have you seen the Maintenance Test Flight Checklist for UH-1 ? That's 51 pages :thumbup:

 

BTW going through the TM 55-1520-242-MTF is a great way of checking if the DCS Huey is up to specs.

[HuggyBear]

Checklists, like everything in the military, promote uniformity and standardisation.

 

In guessing you don't really believe that USAF pilots receive no systems and aircraft ground training.

 

Even very smart people (even Germans) can forget very important things...

 

... even with checklists some people manage to forget things. :)

 

- Bear

[dahui]

even with checklists some people manage to forget things.

 

And this is the reason, why my CEO uses a Checklist... There is a lot more to do, than flying... long office days, always a little bit pressure on you...

 

Perfect for forgetting things

[Lord_Pyro]

Bullshit, germans NEVER forget things. If they miss a point then only because in their eyes it was not mandatory. Even if it would be such trivial things like switching master arm on or switching from APU gen to normal gens :O

 

I guess what you really wanted to say is, that even Austrians make failures (which is right) :)

[xxJohnxx]

Austria, Australia, Germany, no checklist, checklist, donkey.

 

I am confused.

 

I don't see why you wouldn't want to use a checklist. And I do not belive that you don't use checklists in the German military, nor in any other modern military.

 

If you don't use a checklist, you don't show any sing of professionally, in my oppinion.

Better use the checklist, don't forget things, and have a safe time flying than forget things, get yourself and your passengers in truble and avoid unecessary danger.

[Farrow]

I don't see why you wouldn't want to use a checklist. And I do not belive that you don't use checklists in the German military, nor in any other modern military.

 

If you don't use a checklist, you don't show any sing of professionally, in my oppinion.

Better use the checklist, don't forget things, and have a safe time flying than forget things, get yourself and your passengers in truble and avoid unecessary danger.

 

Well, the other school of thought is: it's more dangerous to be head-down and fumbling around changing pages on and trying to keep your place on a checklist than it is to just do it from memory (which can be basically muscle memory after a while).

 

If there was an engine fire, would you rather the pilots flipped through to the engine-fire page of their checklist then slowly ran through every item or would you prefer they quickly do what they've trained to do for so long?

 

Don't get me wrong though, if you have the time and it's safe to do so then the checklist is a good idea. :)

[PeterP]

 

Don't get me wrong though, if you have the time and it's safe to do so then the checklist is a good idea. :)

Farrow ,

(Almost) Every situation has a predefined procedure.

It's like this:

1. First Do the obvious

2. than use your check-lists

...

[Lord_Pyro]

Have i ever said that the german luftwaffe doesn't use checklists nowadays?

I was referring to ww2 and for the planes at that time there was no need to.

[PeterP]

Have i ever said that the german luftwaffe doesn't use checklists nowadays?

I was referring to ww2 and for the planes at that time there was no need to.

No, you didn't!

But why did you came up with such a useless argument at all in the first place? - It must have been obvious to you that some would 'missed' it. ;)

 

I was also 'highly' irritated to read about 'ancient' procedures of the German Luftwaffe in a thread about the Starter Button in the Huey -well, that thread seams moved over to discuss nowadays flight procedures...not ancient.

Edited June 19, 2013 by PeterP

[Mt5_Roie]

I remember seeing a you-tube documentary on the UH-1 where the vietnam pilots of the time said they were training not to use checklist so they could get off the ground quicker in case they were in a hot LZ.

[TimeKilla]

Army pilots for you! :thumbup:

[Lord_Pyro]

The point was that some ppl here wanted belsimtek to change the starterswitch in order to perform the startup exactly like the checklists suggests it. So i startet to question the need for the huey to get started by a checklist because there are so few steps, you can't possible miss one.

 

But at the topic, i dont think it is wise to question the decision belsimtek took, as they decided to move the starterswitch to an otherwise mostly unused switch. I mean they faced a real problem, taking into account that many ppl without trackir would have a hard time locating that switch, then they came up with an aesthetic solution and yet some start complaining about this? Thats quite some arrogant behaviour if you ask me.

 

"**** your decision, **** everyone without Tir, I want the lever at exactly that location where it is in rl, otherwise i'm not buying this product, so **** it too!"

 

So don't step over my little bullshitting about checklists above, that was just to skip some time at work.

 

In my oppinion the Starterlocation shouldn't be changed because it has been done that way for the sake of majority.

(and btw, just mapp that thing to your stick, for warthogusers the apu starter fits perfectly)

[Sundowner.pl]

What ? Idle detent an mostly unused switch ? Have you read this thread ? Do you know there are procedures that require both starter and idle detent switch to be pressed AT THE SAME TIME ?

[dahui]

The point was that some ppl here wanted belsimtek to change the starterswitch in order to perform the startup exactly like the checklists suggests it. So i startet to question the need for the huey to get started by a checklist because there are so few steps, you can't possible miss one.

 

But at the topic, i dont think it is wise to question the decision belsimtek took, as they decided to move the starterswitch to an otherwise mostly unused switch. I mean they faced a real problem, taking into account that many ppl without trackir would have a hard time locating that switch, then they came up with an aesthetic solution and yet some start complaining about this? Thats quite some arrogant behaviour if you ask me.

 

"**** your decision, **** everyone without Tir, I want the lever at exactly that location where it is in rl, otherwise i'm not buying this product, so **** it too!"

 

So don't step over my little bullshitting about checklists above, that was just to skip some time at work.

 

In my oppinion the Starterlocation shouldn't be changed because it has been done that way for the sake of majority.

(and btw, just mapp that thing to your stick, for warthogusers the apu starter fits perfectly)

 

 

All i wanna PERSONALY have is a real Startup Procedure... With watching TOT, maybe modulate during the Startup? (like in some 206...) etc.

And for that, you need an Idle Button ;)

[Lord_Pyro]

And i would also welcome the operation of detailed IFF in a10 and huey but some things may never come (although the mig21 may change this)

[dahui]

ich bin gespannt :smilewink:

[IonicRipper]

 

:smartass:

 

That's not a factory option :smartass:

 

Ferrari's don't come with cup holders

Edited June 19, 2013 by IonicRipper