Do helicopters really..

[Kaktus29]

..need to take off from the runway or can they take of from the parking place where they stand?..

 

Since in DCS we have this approach from helicopters that mimics airplanes-take off and landing and taxiing to their respective destination..

 

is this really how they do it in real life.. isn't this just a big waste of fuel and time and pretty much everyone's nerves? ..

 

I would like to see the helicopter go to the parking place while still being in air and then just land right there on the empty spot. done. next.

 

i just can't watch 4 helicopters doing circles around airfield while 1 helicopter lands as if its a Boeing 747 .. )) ..then the other one comes in.. geeesh, do take your time..

 

 

is this really how in real life they do it, or is this just badly scripted AI?

[tomcatter]

The answer is yes, they use the runway, what i don´t know for sure if their aproach is as long as in game, anyway they do an aproach aswell.

Can you imagine how crazy will be having helos taking-off an landing in the middle of the parking ramp, with all the service vehicles, ground crew, pilots and weapons loading, and refueling trucks..... And over that, how unsafe it will be...?

It just make sense to have all that taxi ways and an active runway just to put everyone on his safe space to prevent accidents, and to know who is coming and who is going, that is sooooo important on an airfield.

[Jona33]

Sometimes, if they can they will because using a running takeoff means they can lift with more weight in hotter conditions. However they might use a smaller runway or a large taxiway. For example at Kandahar they used a large taxiway for helicopter traffic I think.

[Kaktus29]

yes to those high ASL airfields it makes sense to get some runway boost to be able to take off and land easily.

 

and safety procedures probably are the reason why some runway approaches are needed.. but if you have a flight of 4 choppers.. do they really need to land 1 BY 1.. and not something like all 4 of them in formation ..

 

if planes can land in formation 2(1 next to another) i can't imagine helicopters having problems with 1 behind the other (lets say 500 meters behind) ..which would make the whole 4 choppers land in record time considering the DCS approach of helicopters where 1 lands and others are chopping at ATC nerves around the airfield, .. ))

[Silver_Dragon]

If you take off from a airbase, you need take off from runway, except your helo has equipped with skies.

 

Some Helicopter bases has be a short runway to manage take off and landings or move your helo to a helipad

 

Some helibases has equiped with a Helicopter IFR Runway

 

[Nealius]

Even helicopters with skies taxi to the runway, hovering 2-3ft off the ground:

 

[Stickers]

Tomcatter has the right idea. If I was an ATC, I would go ****ing bonkers if I had helos landing directly/taking off from spots. Plus equip and crews on the ground would be affected by rotor wash etc. It's a lot safer if all aircraft are playing by the same rules at the field.

 

While I was stationed in Charleston, most of the helicopters would at least land/takeoff and taxi close to the runway. I can't say much for fields that are helos only.

[Kaktus29]

@stickers)) hahah.. yeah, i agree, i guess ATC would feel like nobody respects his "authoritaaa")) .. hei where are you going, and you are landing just like that..

 

but on the other hand, all this taxing nonsense takes time, fuel, and just looks funny if you have lets say 100 helis in the airfield.. and 24/7 operation going on.. is it safer if they taxi etc..yes..but it just looks like they are not using their one and only ability of why they are the way they are-which is being helicopters.. its like seeing harrier landing with a tail-hook on nimitz.. why?!? ))

 

maybe if heli-fields would be designed better to make sure this taxing is not needed it would be better.. just serve the heli when its down and engine shut and put barricades around it so you are not disturbed by other helis landing-taking off in close vicinity and speed up the take off-landing routine that helicopters rightfully should have an advantage vs. fixed wings crafts..

[NRG-Vampire]

as you know there are choppers with wheels and choppers with skids in DCSW

 

with wheels - AI use runway for TO and landing

 

with skids - Ai directly TO/land from/to starting/spawning places

 

very easy to mod all choppers to use wheels as skids = no more runway usage by choppers

Edited April 25, 2013 by NRG-Vampire

[EtherealN]

with skids - Ai directly TO/land from/to starting/spawning places

 

As far as reality goes, however, skid-equipped helos will perform hover-taxi and execute both landing and takeoff on the runway.

 

This is necessary to deconflict with fixed-wing traffic.

[JG14_Smil]

So Blacksharks can't use runways any more...

 

you guys crack me up.

[AlphaOneSix]

For example at Kandahar they used a large taxiway for helicopter traffic I think.

 

Most military helicopter traffic at Kandahar goes in and out of Mustang Ramp, which is helicopter-only.

 

Helicopter traffic that is not inbound or outbound from Mustang ramp use the parallel taxiways for takeoff and landing. For example, helicopters on the south side take off and land using taxiway Foxtrot. No helicopter traffic (barring emergency) ever uses the main runway for landing or taking off.

 

This is generally how it's done in "real life". If it's a military airfield, and there are parallel taxiways, then helicopters will use the taxiways (just like they'd use the runway). If there is no parallel taxiway, then the runway is typically used. Every airfield in DCS is considered "military" as far as I'm concerned.

 

At many civilian airfields, helicopter traffic generally takes off and lands directly from a taxiway intersection, although for training purposes it is not uncommon to see them use the runway or a parallel taxiway.

 

So Blacksharks can't use runways any more...

 

I don't believe that's the case at all. Although, to be honest, I think it would be more appropriate for them to use parallel taxiways where available.

Edited April 26, 2013 by AlphaOneSix

[KLR Rico]

Here at Fairchild the hueys and blackhawks usually hover taxi to the closest taxiway and do airplane style takeoffs from there, but I've seen them use the runway or parallel as well.

[NRG-Vampire]

Although, to be honest, I think it would be more appropriate for them to use parallel taxiways where available.

 

im affraid that is not possible :(

except if Alex proclaim/implement some dedicated spots on taxiways as TO/L areas into DLLs

[Jona33]

Most military helicopter traffic at Kandahar goes in and out of Mustang Ramp, which is helicopter-only.

 

Helicopter traffic that is not inbound or outbound from Mustang ramp use the parallel taxiways for takeoff and landing. For example, helicopters on the south side take off and land using taxiway Foxtrot. No helicopter traffic (barring emergency) ever uses the main runway for landing or taking off..

 

Thanks for the clarification, I was trying to remember what I read in "Immediate response".

[Soupdragon]

If you need to ground taxy in a wheeled helicopter it's generally because you either want to minimise downwash or you can't achieve hover in ground effect and need to do a rolling takeoff to achieve translational lift and the reduced power demand it brings.

 

Hover taxy and departure tends to be preferable if it can be done as there is sometimes a risk of shedding a tyre with ground taxying due to increased 'drift' loads on the tyre.

 

The other nice thing about getting into a hover is that it is a good way to do a confidence check of the engines before you transition - nice and easy to do a vertical reject if you lose an engine in the hover (particularly if you have several!), not so nice if you are climbing and accelerating but not yet in the 'above single engine' regime.

 

I've no idea how much of this DCS models - I'm not into Blackshark and am holding out for AH 64D or WAH 64.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Soupdragon

[Nealius]

I thought ground effect only occurred on fixed-wing aircraft, since the aircraft's height above the ground has to be roughly equal to its wingspan for ground effect to occur. Or so I thought...

[Soupdragon]

Oh no. Google Helicopter HIGE, HOGE and Forward Flight.

 

 

 

 

...but beware. I bet there are some really crap attempts at explaining it!

[AlphaOneSix]

Ground effect on a helicopter works in the exact same way as in a fixed wing aircraft. The only exception is that the wings one one are fixed, while on the other they spin around in a circle.

 

For example, on a fixed wing, the height above ground for ground effect is roughly equal to wingspan (as already mentioned). For helicopters, it is roughly equal to rotor diameter.

[Soupdragon]

Ground effect on a helicopter works in the exact same way as in a fixed wing aircraft. The only exception is that the wings one one are fixed, while on the other they spin around in a circle.

 

For example, on a fixed wing, the height above ground for ground effect is roughly equal to wingspan (as already mentioned). For helicopters, it is roughly equal to rotor diameter.

 

Spot on. However I would say that GE in rotary is much more complex, for example if you climb a helicopter from HIGE to HOGE you will require more power. However if the 'wind shadow' of nearby hangars diminishes and you get a stronger and cleaner wind gradient then you will be hovering in cleaner air and may see a power benefit. Relative to the air you are beginning to transition to forward flight and leave ground effect, whilst still apparently remaining in the hover.

 

Additionally, hovering alongside buildings again can distort ground effect as the building can cause increased recirculation on that side of the aircraft.

 

Not all military simulators correctly model these effects so it would be unfair to expect DCS to!

[Nealius]

Interesting. Most of the time I never think of the rotors blades themselves as being wings.

 

Additionally, hovering alongside buildings again can distort ground effect as the building can cause increased recirculation on that side of the aircraft.

 

I guess this might explain why my mini-RC heli goes ape when it's close to the ground or an object.

[Headspace]

It really depends on the ATC environment. In the airport that I fly out of it isn't unusual for helicopters to request takeoff/landing on the ramp and ATC to issue a clearance with "do so at your own risk" added onto it.

 

There was an OH-58 who was on the ramp about 100 yards away from where I was getting ready to taxi last summer at my home airport who launched right off the ramp, saluted us, and booked out of there. ATC gave him clearance. It is, apparently, up to ATC.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Headspace

[Weta43]

... However if the 'wind shadow' of nearby hangars diminishes and you get a stronger and cleaner wind gradient then you will be hovering in cleaner air and may see a power benefit.

 

Additionally, hovering alongside buildings again can distort ground effect as the building can cause increased recirculation on that side of the aircraft.

 

Not all military simulators correctly model these effects so it would be unfair to expect DCS to!

 

DCS currently minimises the unpleasant surprises these effects would cause for sim pilots by allowing the wind to pass cleanly and without disturbance through buildings :)

[aaron886]

As far as reality goes, however, skid-equipped helos will perform hover-taxi and execute both landing and takeoff on the runway.

 

This is necessary to deconflict with fixed-wing traffic.

 

+1 to this, as the correct "real life" answer. At the airport where I usually fly, they have a separate helicopter pattern and do all of their takeoffs over grass between runways... but that's an extremely specialized situation. In general, standardization is the answer here. If it's an airport, the helicopters will take off via hovertaxi to the runway. If it's a helipad, say, at a hospital, they will depart directly.

[Headspace]

If it's a helipad, say, at a hospital, they will depart directly.

Then maybe the reason they do it the way they do here (off the ramp) is because it's a medflight bird. But others do it as well. It's a class D airport. *occasionally* they do the hovertaxi and runway takeoff route.

 

When you have a bunch of parked business jets the rotor downwash has caused occasional problems, but there hasn't been an issue with traffic separation. They always appear to be in constant communication with the tower when they take off from, and land, on their ramp spot. The tower always gives the "at your own risk" advisory though.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Headspace