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proper use of rudder


nigglascage
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how do you guys avoid slip during turns?

i guess when flying a real plane its pretty "obvious" if you plane starts

to slip/skid, since you feel the effect on your very body, but how do i "sense" slip/skid in simulations? is the slip/skid indicator your only reference? i try to peform turns with minimum slip/skid by keeping an eye on the indicator but its kind of distracting for an unexperienced pilot like me :) i have to watch my flight path, the slip/skid indicator, use my stick and pedals properly, which is alot of things to take care of simultaneously :joystick:

 

any tips are highly appreciated!


Edited by nigglascage
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thanks! so im paying too much attention to my slip condition :)

im not going to "need" my rudder pedals much when flying the a10c, right? when do i use the rudder for the most part? besides taxiing and crosswind landings, or is that it?

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It can take a little work but you'll find a sweet spot on the stick for each turn to keep it looking golden through the turns. If you're making a 0º Y axis pull on the stick in a turn, you will certainly slip even with SAS.

 

I'd say practice on a 5º turn and then work your way up to more extreme rolls so you can get a feel for how your stick position should be depending on your velocity.

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i mostly slip between level flight and banking. i use slight rudder to minimize the slip (right turn = rudder right) because i read slipping was caused by adverse yaw and it indeed helped, but im unable to keep the ball centered during quick roll. in the end it doesnt seem to matter, so i will be relaxed about it from now on :)


Edited by nigglascage
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besides taxiing and crosswind landings, or is that it?

Personally, I take my feet off the pedals once I´m airborne and in a stable climb and don´t put them back on until I´m on finals. If it weren´t for crosswinds and taxiing, I could probably fly the A-10 without rudders altogether.

 

Of course I make up for it by flying the Huey and the Mustang. Both will bite you hard if you even think of taking your feet off the pedals. :P

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Personally, I take my feet off the pedals once I´m airborne and in a stable climb and don´t put them back on until I´m on finals. If it weren´t for crosswinds and taxiing, I could probably fly the A-10 without rudders altogether.

 

Of course I make up for it by flying the Huey and the Mustang. Both will bite you hard if you even think of taking your feet off the pedals. :P

Same here. However, once your SAS is shot to hell and both your engines are sputting out black smoke, you'll find yourself closer to a glider than a jet and some basic flying skills will help you glide that extra mile to the runway. ;)

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This is not a glider, where it is "teh most importnt instrment EVAR!", but a jet where you have two (hopefully working) engines. Relax :)

 

Speaking of, I was told by a glider instructor while I was flying that all I needed to do was hit the rudder when banking into the turn and then release the rudder once the turn is established. This never works in simulators--I have to step on the rudder throughout the turn to keep the ball centered.

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In a glider you normally use both controls (rudder and ailerons) to put the plane into the turn, and once you've established the bank angle you want, pull at the elevator to keep the nose at the horizon, and center the aileron and rudders to stay where you are (more or less, you always have to give a bit of input).

Additionally most glider pilots use a thread of wool on the canopy as a very precise instrument to see whether the air flows straight over the plane, instead of looking at the ball.

 

You have to step on the rudder a bit to stay in the turn as desired. But you can minimize the rudder input by choosing the perfect bank angle for a given speed.

 

(EDIT: This is a bit rough, I haven't flown real gliders often, my brother is the expert on that)


Edited by Aginor
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I remember in my "exploration flight" I would just hit the rudder while banking, then take my feet off the rudder and pull on the elevator and the thread would stay straight (this glider had no ball indicator)

 

I haven't paid much attention to slip in the A-10, but in the P-51 when I try this the ball goes back to slipping once I release the rudder. The only way I can keep the ball centered while turning is to hold the rudder throughout the entire turn.

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As already stated the A-10's SAS co-ordinates turns automatically

 

I find the rudder is most useful when you are so low that banking too much will contact the inside wing with the ground.

 

Combine a slight bank with rudder into the turn and you can stay as low as possible throughout the turn.

 

It responds nicely to being 'powerslid' as well to keep the nose down during sharp turns

"We could come back with hydraulics shot out, half the tail shot off, piece of the wing shot off, we had two engines and could come home with one... She really was a piece of machinery that you could fly into hell and back... And she was designed around that gun from day 1"

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As already stated the A-10's SAS co-ordinates turns automatically

 

Not really, one way you can test that statement is by looking at the lateral movement of the VVI in the HUD. If it moves left and right of center (assuming no wind,) then the jet has sideslip, or "beta," and is not coordinated. Yaw SAS might help, but it doesn't do everything.

 

I find the rudder is most useful when you are so low that banking too much will contact the inside wing with the ground.

 

Combine a slight bank with rudder into the turn and you can stay as low as possible throughout the turn.

 

This would be called a "skid," and is considered bad technique but is also extremely inefficient. You should use rudder purely to coordinate the turn. The actual turn should be effected using lift, like this:

 

Figure%203-6%20Change%20in%20lift%20causes%20airplane%20to%20turn.JPG

 

It responds nicely to being 'powerslid' as well to keep the nose down during sharp turns

 

I suppose that might seem like a nice response in a simulator, but a skid would be extremely uncomfortable in the real aircraft, and would produce significant drag. (It's also a bit harder to be precise with rudder than other controls. There are other reasons as well.)

 

 

You have to step on the rudder a bit to stay in the turn as desired. But you can minimize the rudder input by choosing the perfect bank angle for a given speed.

 

Sort of. You can minimize the rudder input by not banking. :D Otherwise, coordinating rudder tends to increase somewhat linearly with bank, and will decrease slightly at high load factor/g.

 

The only way I can keep the ball centered while turning is to hold the rudder throughout the entire turn.

 

That's a realistic behavior. The size of that input would depend on the aircraft's design, and the steepness of bank.

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Rudder is also needed when landing with a strong cross wind.

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This would be called a "skid," and is considered bad technique but is also extremely inefficient

It may expend energy yes but isn't it sometimes useful to deliberately skid the hog?

 

What can I say, I'm a loose cannon :-P

"We could come back with hydraulics shot out, half the tail shot off, piece of the wing shot off, we had two engines and could come home with one... She really was a piece of machinery that you could fly into hell and back... And she was designed around that gun from day 1"

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That's a realistic behavior. The size of that input would depend on the aircraft's design, and the steepness of bank.

 

Is this behavior only in powered aircraft? When I tried flying a glider I did not need any rudder once the bank/turn was established. I only needed rudder when beginning and ending the turn.

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I'm not a real pilot, nor am I an expert in anything. I have spent lots of time flying low tech aircraft in sims and I've always considered rudder input necessary through any coordinated turn.

 

A-10 has SAS but, now correct me if I'm wrong, isn't rudder input required anytime the ball slides left or right? I mean, what good is an instrument if its not right? Also, if SAS works to the degree some give it credit, why is the ball moving?

 

Even if you can get away with not "stepping on the ball" in the A-10 and fly completely "feet off", I personally would consider that bad technique. The only airplane I've ever flown feet off was the 737 NG in FSX when the full autopilot is turned on. Even then, soon as I go manual, despite the basically perfect yaw dampening, I still put my feet on the pedals. Technique.

 

So, does the ball lie? Or can I confidently assume that any ball movement means I need to "step on it"?

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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Is this behavior only in powered aircraft? When I tried flying a glider I did not need any rudder once the bank/turn was established. I only needed rudder when beginning and ending the turn.

No, in this case, it depends on aerodynamic qualities alone. The airplane you were flying most likely did need some rudder in that turn, but it was so little you didn't see the deflection of the yaw string. I've flown some very stable training gliders, and to be fair they almost coordinate themselves. This is due to a quality known as spiral instability, and can be affected by wing dihedral and the aircraft's effective "keel" area. Spiral instability (which sounds like a bad thing because it is,) is a design consideration, because it must be balanced chiefly against Dutch Roll tendency. Dutch Roll tendency is seen as a more dangerous quality, and I imagine it's particularly dangerous in a light aircraft subject to lots of turbulence like a glider. :beer: Can you tell I luuurve aerodynamics?

 

Rudder is also needed when landing with a strong cross wind.

At some point, yes, to intentionally induce sideslip. That said, the aircraft is not "steered" with rudder like a kayak, lateral corrections are still made with aileron.

 

So, does the ball lie? Or can I confidently assume that any ball movement means I need to "step on it"?

The ball does not lie. The lateral displacement of the velocity vector lies, but only if there's wind. :) The ball does not "care" about the wind. The VVI does.


Edited by aaron886
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Ok, given that we don't have to worry about torque effect in a jet aircraft, the main reason for using the ruder inflight, in normal operations, will be for adverse yaw.

 

Adverse yaw is where yaw occurs when you roll the aircraft.

 

As you roll left, the left wing creates less left (to drop)and thus less drag, right wing creates more lift (to rise) and thus more drag, result is yaw opposite to roll direction.

 

There are ways to minimise this effect, the most common being differential aileron movement, where the upward moving aileron moves further than the downward moving aileron - to create more parasitic drag on the downward wing and offset the increased drag due increased lift of the upward wing.

 

Adverse yaw is familiar to anyone with light aeroplane experience and massively apparent to anyone with sailplane experience.

 

You don't need a slip indicator to see it - just look out the window, it is very apparent.

 

Rudder use in jets is completely different. The rudder must be treated with a lot of respect as they are INCREDIBLY powerful and whilst normally restricted in movement at high speeds they still have the potential to really mess things up.

 

Anyone recall the A310 where improper rudder use tore the tail off the aircraft inflight at low speed?

 

I have no real world A10 experience but the DCS version appears to not need rudder inflight. The yaw SAS appears to have some kind of yaw damping like most jets which means no input is required. Small displacements of the skid ball don't bother me - visible skidding when rolling would.

 

As for landing and takeoff, I just use a slider on my HOTAS for rudder. Decrabbing during a crosswind landing should be a smooth controlled movement in one direction with the rudder anyway.

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The ball does not lie. The lateral displacement of the velocity vector lies, but only if there's wind. :) The ball does not "care" about the wind. The VVI does.

 

Figured as much.

 

Usually if I teach any of my friends to fly the A-10, the first time I take them up I tell them to flip on the stand by HUD so I can be sure they're reading their instruments and not staring at the magical god pointer.

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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