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RWR sounds


sumerion
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Hi

 

I have some questions about the RWR in DCS A-10...

 

 

In DCS A-10 the RWR is showing different threats different ways, but there is only one kind of sound. IRL is there different sounds depending of what type of threat there is?

 

For example if it is a ground unit or an aircraft or even different types of aircrafts.

 

 

I understand that the RWR knows from a database what type of radarsignal different radars have and thats what determins what type it should show on the screen, so it should be able to sound differently, so again my question, is there only one sound IRL?

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Yes, there should be different audio alerts for different threat systems, and also different states of those threat system (search/track). These sounds are generally based on the properties of the RADAR, such as PRF and band.

 

Also worth noting, while other sims have had different sounds for different systems, they are not same sounds heard in reality. The exact sounds used, along with the symbology, and other things RWR related are in the "classified" domain.

 

DCS does have support for different sounds for each system (someone with basic lua knowledge can add them now actually), so hopefully they'll be added somewhere down the line.

 

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Well that would be a great mod...

 

In fact I started to learn the countermeasurment system in the sim and thought it was strange with only one sound for the RWR so I started to dig in the lua files to see the logic but only came to a dead end, to complicated for me, at least for now.

There are lots of RWR sounds from freefalcon etc. but i´m not shure if those are legal to use for a mod, maybe for personal use.

 

Anyway, let´s hope someone can mod this or that ED implements this.

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Eddie, are the symbols/sounds from older generation systems still classified? I wonder if some sims use sounds that once were heard in real life.

 

Well, go and google for such things, and then you come back and tell me what you think the answer to that question is. ;)

 

Such things are classified simply because it gives information on the performance and capabilities of the system. Like so many things, that one little aspect might seem insignificant, but if someone can find out lots of bit of "insignificant" information they end up with something very significant indeed.

 

Let me put it this way, the mere fact that an audio cue exists for "system A" would indicate not only that the RWR in question can detect "system A", but also that is can distinguish "system A" from "system B".

 

Now think about what would happen regarding "system A-1" or "system A-2". Do you want the enemy to know if you can tell the difference between the 2 or not?

 

To put a more real world spin on the above. How many minor updates have there been to something like the SA-2 across the various user nations over the years? Do you think that we'd tell people if our systems can tell them apart or not?

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Google has been broken for the past 5 years ;)

 

Now think about what would happen regarding "system A-1" or "system A-2". Do you want the enemy to know if you can tell the difference between the 2 or not?

 

I have a feeling they already know that :p

 

 

I'm just curious, but how would RWR sounds from, say, the 1980s or 90s, be of any value to a potential enemy? What's currently represented in DCS appears to be much more current and much more of an "information" source than what obsolete RWR audio cues would be. RWR audio cues from the '91 Gulf War, at least for the SA-2, are out on the open on YouTube anyway.


Edited by Nealius
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I'm just curious, but how would RWR sounds from, say, the 1980s, be of any value to a potential enemy? Isn't it more obsolete than the current level of the technology represented in DCS? Of course I am just assuming that RWR technology has greatly advanced in the past 30 years...

 

Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. But then that is point. Things are "classified" in an effort to stop people finding what you can and can't do.

 

I'm thinking of it in terms of what's modeled in DCS. The systems seem to be fairly recent and the current A-10 tech is classified from what I gather on these forums. Obviously x-year-old A-10 technology is public enough for DCS to exist...

 

You are assuming what is show in DCS is:

 

A. Truly Realistic

B. Not missing significant features/functions

 

As I and others have said before. While DCS A-10C is by far the most accurate and realistic simulator available, it is far away from being 100% accurate. And as has also been said, those who do know what is missing/changed aren't really going to be going into great detail regarding what is missing/changed and how.

 

Remember, just because you can find information about X on the internet doesn't mean those who work with X are free to discuss it. ;)

 

I have a feeling they already know that :p

 

Maybe they do, and maybe they don't. That's not really the point.

 

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So....what about the RWR audio cues from the '91 Gulf War that are out there on YouTube? I figure they would be censored if they were still classified...Falcon BMS uses the same audio cue for the SA-2 as heard in the famous HUD tape with Stroke defeating a multitude of SA-2s. Assuming the other RWR cues in BMS are as realistic as the SA-2 tone was back in '91 (which may or may not be true--who knows?), there would have to be some declassified info out there about the audio cues.

 

Forgive all the questions, but I am stumbling through the knowledge that's out there but never really presented.


Edited by Nealius
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Available doesn't necessarily mean de-classified.

 

The whole ordeal of how we know anything about the Teller-Ulam design for modern American Thermo-nuclear weapons is a perfect story to illustrate the line between available versus still classified.

 

In the circles which deal with classification regularly I imagine they have a mature understanding that just because they classify something they can't expect 100% retention of the full secret, something will leak out, somebody will drop some random bit of info, and a few dozen people later you might have enough info to make an educated guess which might be 85% correct.

 

Even if there's no value to keeping the secret, there's not necessarily any value in releasing it either. A culture of secrecy dies hard.

 

EDIT. Also, with the change in the way threats are evaluated in the post Cold War world, you can't expect everyone you fight to have the intelligence capabilities of the Soviet Union. Even if the Russians know something you don't want them to know, that doesn't mean that the next minor power or non-state actor you fight will too.


Edited by P*Funk

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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ECM and ECCM is one of the most classified things out there when it comes to aviation.

Even 30 year old stuff is classified because you don't want the counterpart to see what you knew then, because then it would be easier to estimate what you know now.

 

99.99% of the people that are involved or have been involved in SIGINT would rather die then expose classified info, the other 00.01 are traitors.

(I'm not talking about Snowden, this thread should not derail. I'm talking about SIGINT aimed towards other nations radar systems and such)

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Found where they are all listed, adding the individual sounds would be, from what I can see, pretty simple to achieve. I work as a sound designer for my day job so I would be more than willing to have a go at doing this mod myself, however, I have no references as to what the sounds should sound like. As has also been said this info is also classified which would make it even harder to get solid representations of what I should be aiming for audio wise. The list below is what the A-10 can detect (and have individual acquisition and lock sounds for):

 

   EWR_1L13              
   EWR_55G6              
   S300PS_SR_5N66M       
   S300PS_SR_64H6E       
   RLO_9C15MT          
   RLO_9C19M2           
   Buk_SR_9S18M1         
   Kub_STR_9S91          
   Dog_Ear               
   Roland_rdr            
   Patriot_STR_ANMPQ_53  
   Hawk_SR_ANMPQ_50      
   S300PS_TR_30N6        
   RLS_5H63C_            
   RLS_9C32_1_           
   Hawk_TR_ANMPQ_46      
   S300V_9A82        
   S300V_9A83            
   Buk_LN_9A310M1        
   BUK_LL              
   Osa_9A33              
   Tor_9A331             
   Roland_ADS            
   Tunguska_2S6          
   ZSU_23_4_Shilka       
   Gepard                
   Vulcan_M163           
   S125_SR_P_19          
   S125_TR_SNR

If anybody with some knowledge or references (even if it's from other sims etc) of what those units should "sound" like for acquisition and locking I would more than happily have a stab at replicating the audio and hooking up the LUA for it.

 

Saying that though there surely can't be 29 different sounds, 58 if you count acquisition AND locking for each for the RWR. I can't imagine a pilot would be required to remember so many audible cues, even if the data is replicated visually.

 

Anyway, if somebody who knows what's what is prepared to lend a hand with the knowledge end of this and finding references I could definitely have a go at making this a functioning mod.

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Found where they are all listed, adding the individual sounds would be, from what I can see, pretty simple to achieve. I work as a sound designer for my day job so I would be more than willing to have a go at doing this mod myself, however, I have no references as to what the sounds should sound like. As has also been said this info is also classified which would make it even harder to get solid representations of what I should be aiming for audio wise. The list below is what the A-10 can detect (and have individual acquisition and lock sounds for):

 

   EWR_1L13              
   EWR_55G6              
   S300PS_SR_5N66M       
   S300PS_SR_64H6E       
   RLO_9C15MT          
   RLO_9C19M2           
   Buk_SR_9S18M1         
   Kub_STR_9S91          
   Dog_Ear               
   Roland_rdr            
   Patriot_STR_ANMPQ_53  
   Hawk_SR_ANMPQ_50      
   S300PS_TR_30N6        
   RLS_5H63C_            
   RLS_9C32_1_           
   Hawk_TR_ANMPQ_46      
   S300V_9A82        
   S300V_9A83            
   Buk_LN_9A310M1        
   BUK_LL              
   Osa_9A33              
   Tor_9A331             
   Roland_ADS            
   Tunguska_2S6          
   ZSU_23_4_Shilka       
   Gepard                
   Vulcan_M163           
   S125_SR_P_19          
   S125_TR_SNR

If anybody with some knowledge or references (even if it's from other sims etc) of what those units should "sound" like for acquisition and locking I would more than happily have a stab at replicating the audio and hooking up the LUA for it.

 

Saying that though there surely can't be 29 different sounds, 58 if you count acquisition AND locking for each for the RWR. I can't imagine a pilot would be required to remember so many audible cues, even if the data is replicated visually.

 

Anyway, if somebody who knows what's what is prepared to lend a hand with the knowledge end of this and finding references I could definitely have a go at making this a functioning mod.

 

What I am asking myself since I stumbled upon this thread is: are the different sounds a direct result of the emitted radar waves? Like just transposed into a hearable Hz range?

 

Or are they completely artificial and if so, what "human interface guideline" is been followed therefore? Like, what criteria are used to produce different sounds so that the human pilot can most easily distinguish them and get the most information out of them (I'd guess, threat level, range, height, etc. could be factors).

 

Edit: my uneducated guess would be, that the first is the case: just transposing the real radar waves into the audible spectrum. I mean, if the latter was the case, why use cryptical beeps and hums? Why not implement it via Bitching Betty instead, which would call out the threats just by name?


Edited by Flagrum
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Different sounds for almost everything, as far as BMS is concerned. Different SAM sites, and different missile types all give off different sounds. Its a bit overwhelming at first but you sorta get used to it.

 

Like here in this video (Probably a bad example) you can sorta tell at 1:45 and onwards there are a few differences between different sites


Edited by ralfidude
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Thanks ralfi, think BMS, although the F-16 would probably be the best point of reference in terms of audio, not sure if any other sim has replicated as much variety in audible cues for a RWR system.

 

Guess the next step will be to try and take the list above and break each entry down into the radar type or sam type it belongs to. If anybody has a good knowledge of what the above system are and what kind of weapon systems they carry or provide radar for it would be a huge help trying to translate them into types. The RWR page for the manual is as follows:

 

A – “Gepard” and ZSU-23-4 Self Propelled Anti-Aircraft guns
M – Missile detected by Missile Warning System (MWS)
L – Laser illumination
S6 – 2S6 “Tunguska”
3 – SA-3
6 – SA-6
8 – SA-8
10 – SA-10 "Flap Lid" tracking radar
CS – SA-10 "Clam Shell" low altitude search radar
BB – SA-10 "Big Bird" search radar
11 – SA-11/17 tracking radar
SD – SA-11/17 "Snow Drift" search radar
13 – SA-13
DE – "Dog Ear" search radar
15 – SA-15
RO – Roland
PA – Patriot
HA – I-HAWK
S – Early Warning or Ground Control Intercept Radar

Airborne Radars:
E3 – E-3A AWACS
E2 – E-2C AWACS
50 – A-50U AWACS
23 – MiG-23ML
25 – MiG-25PD
29 – MiG-29, Su-27, and Su-33
31 – MiG-31
30 – Su-30
34 – Su-34
M2 – Mirage 200-5
F4 – F-4
F5 – F-5
14 – F-14
15 – F-15
16 – F-16
18 – F/A-18

Need to translate those (aside from the obvious ones) to this list below from the lua script:

 

EWR_1L13           
EWR_55G6              
S300PS_SR_5N66M        
S300PS_SR_64H6E     
RLO_9C15MT            
RLO_9C19M2           
Buk_SR_9S18M1     
Kub_STR_9S91      
Dog_Ear               
Roland_rdr            
Patriot_STR_ANMPQ_53  
Hawk_SR_ANMPQ_50      
S300PS_TR_30N6        
RLS_5H63C_            
RLS_9C32_1_           
Hawk_TR_ANMPQ_46      
S300V_9A82        
S300V_9A83            
Buk_LN_9A310M1        
BUK_LL              
Osa_9A33              
Tor_9A331             
Roland_ADS            
Tunguska_2S6          
ZSU_23_4_Shilka       
Gepard                
Vulcan_M163           
S125_SR_P_19          
S125_TR_SNR 


Edited by Tetra
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I´m no programmer and don´t know if this contributes...

 

ALR69_param.lua

 

In this file it seems to be where it gets what sound for acquisition and lock..?

 

 

 

Some more files that might help

 

wsTypes.lua

wsTypes_Airplane.lua

wsTypes_missile.lua

wsTypes_SAM.lua

wsTypes_Ship.lua

 

Cant find where the NewThreat sound is called.

 

Some mod like that already exists for DCS:

 

 

I was asking about it in a PM, but never heard back.

Figured that the mod is squadron-only (which is ok).

 

That is exactly what we need.


Edited by sumerion

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How the sounds are made we don´t know, maybe it´s from the emitted radar wave,

 

If not some sort of logic would be nice, for example: high pitch sounds for air and a growling noise for ground radars.

 

 

EDIT

The attached files are from open falcon wich is free and I downloaded just to have a look at the RWR sounds, there is a bunch of sounds there.

GroundSearch.rar

AirSearch.rar


Edited by sumerion
forgot this

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Some mod like that already exists for DCS:

 

 

I was asking about it in a PM, but never heard back.

Figured that the mod is squadron-only (which is ok).

 

From what I can hear, after having a look through the BMS data folder, it seems that their mod is using ported BMS sounds, which is most likely why they wouldn't want to release it publicly.

 

Made some small steps today, tried to emulate some of the original BMS sounds from scratch, although a bit on the rough side at the moment they can be brought up to grade after I work out what needs to be assigned to what exactly.

 

There also seems to be a difference between how BMS and DCS A-10 handles the RWR. From what I can hear in Ralfi's vid the radars (well SA-3 anyway) have 3 states (although I might' be completely wrong). In the BMS vid:

 

1: SA-3 appears on the RWR and "pings" the aircraft.

2: SA-3 acquisition - continuous lower tone

3: SA-3 lock - continuous higher tone

 

In A-10c however, as soon as the radar spike appears on the RWR it is already in state 2 which is acquisition. There is no pinging of the aircraft before full acquisition mode?

 

At the moment I was playing around with the SA-3 being in state 2 and then transitioning to state 3 but, with the range on that thing, you are getting a constant targeting tone from such a LONG way away.

 

I guess the better way to deal with it would only to have continuous tones when the radar is locked and keep the short "chirp" tones for when they are on the RWR before lock.

 

The most time out of making this seems to be working out what sounds from BMS I should be emulating for which systems in DCS-A-10C, things like the Patriot and Hawk etc. are obvious but BMS only seems to have acquisition tones for SA-6, SA-8 and SA-2, but the other Sam's acquisition tones are just the radar names for the other systems that support them, sadly my military knowledge is lacking enough that this makes it quite a job tracking down which sounds belong to which systems.

 

Anyway here is a short vid from today, SA-3 site (killed it off with a trigger once I fly over it to prevent the targeting tone going on for the rest of the vid), a Dog Ear radar system and finally an SA-8 Osa 9A33. As I said earlier, maybe the constant acquisition tones are no the right way to go about it and just leave them for the locking only?

 


Edited by Tetra
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Thanks ralfi, think BMS, although the F-16 would probably be the best point of reference in terms of audio, not sure if any other sim has replicated as much variety in audible cues for a RWR system.

 

Guess the next step will be to try and take the list above and break each entry down into the radar type or sam type it belongs to. If anybody has a good knowledge of what the above system are and what kind of weapon systems they carry or provide radar for it would be a huge help trying to translate them into types. The RWR page for the manual is as follows:

 

A – “Gepard” and ZSU-23-4 Self Propelled Anti-Aircraft guns
M – Missile detected by Missile Warning System (MWS)
L – Laser illumination
S6 – 2S6 “Tunguska”
3 – SA-3
6 – SA-6
8 – SA-8
10 – SA-10 "Flap Lid" tracking radar
CS – SA-10 "Clam Shell" low altitude search radar
BB – SA-10 "Big Bird" search radar
11 – SA-11/17 tracking radar
SD – SA-11/17 "Snow Drift" search radar
13 – SA-13
DE – "Dog Ear" search radar
15 – SA-15
RO – Roland
PA – Patriot
HA – I-HAWK
S – Early Warning or Ground Control Intercept Radar

Airborne Radars:
E3 – E-3A AWACS
E2 – E-2C AWACS
50 – A-50U AWACS
23 – MiG-23ML
25 – MiG-25PD
29 – MiG-29, Su-27, and Su-33
31 – MiG-31
30 – Su-30
34 – Su-34
M2 – Mirage 200-5
F4 – F-4
F5 – F-5
14 – F-14
15 – F-15
16 – F-16
18 – F/A-18

Need to translate those (aside from the obvious ones) to this list below from the lua script:

 

EWR_1L13           
EWR_55G6              
S300PS_SR_5N66M        
S300PS_SR_64H6E     
RLO_9C15MT            
RLO_9C19M2           
Buk_SR_9S18M1     
Kub_STR_9S91      
Dog_Ear               
Roland_rdr            
Patriot_STR_ANMPQ_53  
Hawk_SR_ANMPQ_50      
S300PS_TR_30N6        
RLS_5H63C_            
RLS_9C32_1_           
Hawk_TR_ANMPQ_46      
S300V_9A82        
S300V_9A83            
Buk_LN_9A310M1        
BUK_LL              
Osa_9A33              
Tor_9A331             
Roland_ADS            
Tunguska_2S6          
ZSU_23_4_Shilka       
Gepard                
Vulcan_M163           
S125_SR_P_19          
S125_TR_SNR 

 

 

 

If you want specifics Tetra, you should install BMS, and then look at the library section there. It shows you all the SAM and AIR threats and what their corresponding sounds are. Unless someone here wants to do a youtube video for it you can download later? Not sure.

 

EDIT: I could go to the sound library and do that for all threats for you, and if you have youtube downloader you can grab the video and just extract the sound from it, orrr just get BMS and get it from there, unless someone here can send you that data somehow.

 

As far as SA-3 goes, it appears on RWR and immediately starts to go off as a soft lock, then a hard lock at around 1:45 so 2 sounds.

At 3:20 you hear little ticks for AAA spikes on RWR, represented as S and A.

At 4:10 you hear a weird bwergh sound as a contact spike from a Mig-21.

At 7:07 is obviously a SAM launch.

At 10:51 I am locked up by one of the bandits, and it also corresponds to being locked up by other friendly aircraft like at 11:06 by a friendly F-16 on my 12.

 

 

By the way the single half second BEEP every few seconds is the data link and has nothing to do with the RWR.


Edited by ralfidude
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If you want specifics Tetra, you should install BMS, and then look at the library section there. It shows you all the SAM and AIR threats and what their corresponding sounds are. Unless someone here wants to do a youtube video for it you can download later? Not sure.

 

Oooh! Thanks Ralfi! Already have BMS downloaded just so I could use the sound files as references to create the new ones, but had no idea about the Tactical Reference page, let alone that it lets you preview the RWR tone for that specific unit! Thanks again, that will be immensely helpful.

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Oooh! Thanks Ralfi! Already have BMS downloaded just so I could use the sound files as references to create the new ones, but had no idea about the Tactical Reference page, let alone that it lets you preview the RWR tone for that specific unit! Thanks again, that will be immensely helpful.

 

No problem mate, it huge though, like there are a LOT of tones... have fun going through it!

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