what to expect from Su-27 module?

[Pilotasso]

you had it all before, whats so special about it now?

[GGTharos]

F-15's have had datalink as a standard for a while now. Just the initial trials of the terminals were limited.

 

Doesn't beat the point that Su-27 had datalink as standard compared to F-15 witch still don't have it as standard I believe.

I dont have the technical knowledge, I could argue about only GCI receiving data, you need to be more logical.

 

In 1992 Su-35 was doing its introduction even though in went into service around 2005.

[Exorcet]

They kept it because of obvious reasons, If it can take down F-15 with Aim-120C in simulated environment as FC3 where Su-27 don't have working TWS/EOS/datalink and ER-27 that can be avoided by not even making 60 degree pincer. Then in real life it would be even more capable and endure more threat because you just can't test milion times how to avoid ER-27.

No

 

As much as it hurts to admit, DCS is not that good yet. We can't really draw any conclusions on how Su-27 vs F-15 would go down from FC3 besides some very basic ideas. Even those probably relay on a few assumptions.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Trying to center the discussion around data and AoA maneouvers. Not feelings and guessing.

 

This extreme AoA movements are not for BVR tactical use. They are intented for close combat, and in several posts i´m reading that "Cobras" " Bells " and other stuff are BVR maneouvers using datalink and R-27.

 

i´m little tired to read threads over threads with very good initial intentions that always fall into a "your stuff is worst than mine"

 

There are so much interesting info and data to discuss about Su-27 and other planes with good spirit... but we are always falling in the same.

 

"You against me"

 

You know, nothing special about it.

[Pilotasso]

^^^^agree, theres still many things/broken missing to even try draw a general idea.

[diveplane]

will ED able to accurately replicate Su-27 flight model?

will we be able to do cobra manouver?

are they actually serious about creating DCS Su-27SM module or was it just a name being thrown to fool us? :lol:

when will the Su-27 Flaming Cliffs module be released?

when will the DCS Su-27 being worked?

 

no mention of a Su-27 module yet am aware off.

[Exorcet]

IMHO having greater AoA capabilities, Helmet Mounted Sights and R-73M missiles are useful in several close combat situations. At least having this capabilities is better than nothing.

Very true, but I think the Cobra itself (and I'm counting it separately from high AoA) is of limited use. I'm sure that you can find a situation where it is useful, but I wouldn't expect it to see in every WVR engagement, or every other engagement, or even every dozenth engagement.

 

no mention of a Su-27 module yet am aware off.

 

I do think that Wags said the plan was to look into full DCS Su-27 after the AFM Su-27.

[gavagai]

Quite a thread you guys have going here.

 

My jet air combat experience is limited to Falcon BMS, but from what I read in this thread, it sounds like the implementation of the F-15 and Su-27 in FC3 is still incomplete. The lack of the JHMCS for the F-15 is pretty big thing to be missing, and there may be similar omissions in the Su-27 (I don't know).

 

Rather than arguing about which one is better, all this energy would be better spent convincing ED of our desire for complete avionics in these aircraft (up to DCS standard), and that we are willing to pay for it. FC3 seems like an air combat game to me, and I am still not enticed to buy it with advanced flight models if the avionics are not there, too.

 

When the F-18E is up for sale I will definitely buy it. Here's hoping for more aircraft with complete avionics from ED!:thumbup:

[SkateZilla]

Very true, but I think the Cobra itself (and I'm counting it separately from high AoA) is of limited use. I'm sure that you can find a situation where it is useful, but I wouldn't expect it to see in every WVR engagement, or every other engagement, or even every dozenth engagement.

 

 

 

I do think that Wags said the plan was to look into full DCS Su-27 after the AFM Su-27.

 

SU-27SM was listed on the Overview Video.

[lunaticfringe]

Also only as a example in close combat this pics shows how to take advantage of extreme AoA maneouvers with the Su-27 in different situations.

 

This type of canned diagram is conceptually pretty and effectively useless; pay very close attention to the ranges in #1 and 2; ~1340m in 1 (approximately 4400', or around 2000' greater than even the AIM-9M's Rmin- that is, an aircraft with *less* AoA authority [but without a limiter ;)] can still generate a shot in this environment without cashing in his chips). In 2, the range is 2300m/7500'- again, a "lesser" combination of AoA authority and missile can control his turn rate and get a shot here without wasting his entire energy state to do it.

 

Also note that it doesn't describe the airspeed of the target aircraft in either example; the only solution to make these ranges stick as authored is a similarly slow aircraft. A machine with comparable knots on increases the lateral line of sight challenge to the weapon creating a corner it can't handle, while an even slower aircraft (and others *can* go there- they don't need AoA authority to enter that environment) closes the Rmin on the back side of the turn, again making a corner that the Archer can't negotiate.

 

But seriously- who fights slow and in plane with 180 degrees to go? Hell, TEK doesn't even fight that way (as exampled by Pilotasso)!

[Esac_mirmidon]

I´m talking about AoA in general and not about " Cobras " because all is extreme angle of attack maneuvers.

 

If you are in close combat in a short horizontal circle chasing other fighter and your helmet device can´t lock the target by only a a couple of degrees, using the greater AoA instantaneous capability of the Su-27, doing a horizontal AoA pull ( i don´t like to use this names like Cobra ), you can gain this little extra degrees to lock and launch.

 

It´s only a question of turning off the AoA limiter and pull the stick hard enough to pitch up the nose enough to lock and launch. The Su-27 structural strength, engines reliability and aerodinamycal features made possible this maneuvers.

 

It´s true that after the maneouver, the speed drops a lot but if you are 1 vs 1 this extra time and space to fire is enough to gain advantage and take down the target in certain situations.

 

Obviously 1vs1 situations are very uncommon in reality and this is one of the main factors to not use such kind of "bleed all my energy and speed" in combat, when a wingman can eat you while doing such "fun" maneuvers against a leader.

 

And also i´m talking about resources, possibilities, chances. Not the regular way to combat in any scenario.

 

I repeat, it´s better to have extra AoA degrees in certain combat situations that don´t have it.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Esac_mirmidon

[pepin1234]

Quite a thread you guys have going here.

 

My jet air combat experience is limited to Falcon BMS, but from what I read in this thread, it sounds like the implementation of the F-15 and Su-27 in FC3 is still incomplete. The lack of the JHMCS for the F-15 is pretty big thing to be missing, and there may be similar omissions in the Su-27 (I don't know).

 

Rather than arguing about which one is better, all this energy would be better spent convincing ED of our desire for complete avionics in these aircraft (up to DCS standard), and that we are willing to pay for it. FC3 seems like an air combat game to me, and I am still not enticed to buy it with advanced flight models if the avionics are not there, too.

 

When the F-18E is up for sale I will definitely buy it. Here's hoping for more aircraft with complete avionics from ED!:thumbup:

 

Good Point.

 

The thread was pretty interesting, but someone have spoken about the cobra maneuver and all become broken because came the F-15 pilots and start attacking every praise we say about this aircraft.

 

But at the end who are trolling??

Edited August 11, 2013 by pepin1234

[Teknetinium]

DLS delivered 800+ MIDS terminals to the USAF. Even with *half* of those going to F-15s (placing one in *every* KC-135- the other aircraft they were for) that's a lot of, as you say, "exceptional squadrons".

 

You know, almost every F-15C procured by the Air Force. :lol:

 

 

 

You're so wound up you don't even bother making sure what you're saying makes logical sense. For a guy who doesn't realize what's coming out of his brain and being set down by his fingers, you sure like telling people what they know and don't know.

 

 

 

How did you miss something that you quoted wholesale in #41?

 

Of course- your "They're Telling Me I'm Wrong So I'm Going To Claim Bias/F-15 Mafia Filter", or TTMIWSIGTCBFMF, kicked in the instant your wet dream got squashed.

 

Seriously- you don't read what you write yourself, and you don't comprehend what others write that you're responding to. Why should anyone bother to waste their time reading your commentary beyond supporting the concept of TTMIWSIGTCBFMF?

 

 

 

Oh, now that's some funny s* right there.

 

<TTMIWSIGTCBFMF>

 

But Pilotasso- don't you understand?! To do a Cobra tactically demands a datalink! It demands a working R-27! Demands working EOS! Demands it being reverted back to a keystroke! Demands Venus aligned with Mars and Mercury in retrograde!

 

</TTMIWSIGTCBFMF>

 

Stop spaming the thread, plz we are talking about Su-27 features not F-15 datalink that no one knows even how it looks. if you have info on F-15 datalink bring it forward in another thread.

 

lunaticfringe take your F-15 mafia attitude to F-15 thread. We don't need you to teach us that having the possibility to take your aircraft to higher AoA then your opponent is for no use. LOL

[johnv2pt0]

I repeat, it´s better to have extra AoA degrees in certain combat situations that don´t have it.

 

I'm not so sure about that. Who is more deadly? The man that has one rifle and knows how to use it or the man that has 20 but never shoots them? Having more capability can distract and confuse and lead people to put themselves in bad situations because they dedicated themselves to the lesser of 2 options they had in the heat of battle. It can be beneficial, but its not as simple as that.

 

 

It´s only a question of turning off the AoA limiter and pull the stick hard enough to pitch up the nose enough to lock and launch.

 

Is it that simple? Where is the AoA limiter? Is it a switch on the front panel? Is it a circuit breaker you have to pull? Have you ever tried glancing down, finding and actuating a specific toggle switch whilst flying a precision maneuver when your life is on the line all at 9G?

 

Doing things in the cockpit starts to become a challenge around the 5G mark for me. That's why they have HOTAS.

 

 

I don't mean to rag on anyone, but I think the operational side of the house needs to be shown in this thread. A lot of good technical/engineering but in most responses there are assumptions that just don't fly (pardon the pun) in the real world with your butt in the seat.

[Teknetinium]

F-15's have had datalink as a standard for a while now. Just the initial trials of the terminals were limited.

 

Could you plz start another thread GG and show me how F-15C data link looks and where in the cockpit it is positioned. We can only guess what those datalink are cable of. datalink panel is in all Su-27S while in F-15 we don't even know how it looks. so it would be hard to model. Again if you have info on F-15 datalink make another LEVU thread where you can use your touchpad for it :).

 

We need to draw a line witch times we are comparing to, like I said F-15C had several updates even if it didt change the designation to D, same story whit Su-27S. You have to compare the aircrafts from same time farme, not F-15s from 2007 with Su-27S from 86.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

No, because all I can tell you is this,so no other thread is needed:

 

There is documentation for F-15 datalink.

You will not get this documentation (ie. it cannot be shared)

The datalink is integrated in the SIT display of the MPCD, among other things.

There -was- a very old (1984) picture of a mock up of this terminal by Sperry IIRC (Sperry was the manufacturer), which I looked for to show you, but unfortunately I cannot find it any more :(

It looks a lot like what you see in BMS Falcon 4 on the F-16.

 

Edit: Here is an idea of what it looks like, but I wanted to show you a pic of it on the actual terminal ... sadly I cannot find it :(

http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/ELEC_Link-16_Scenario_lg.jpg

 

That is all that can be said about F-15 data link at this time.

 

PPS: I changed my mind. I will make a new thread for western datalink later, but right now I am working from a tablet so I will wait until I have a PC :P

 

Could you plz start another thread GG and show me how F-15C data link looks and where in the cockpit it is positioned. We can only guess what those datalink are cable of. datalink panel is in all Su-27S while in F-15 we don't even know how it looks. so it would be hard to model. Again if you have info on F-15 datalink make another LEVU thread where you can use you touchpad for datalink :).

Edited August 11, 2013 by GGTharos

[Teknetinium]

No, because all I can tell you is this,so no other thread is needed:

 

There is documentation for F-15 datalink.

You will not get this documentation (ie. it cannot be shared)

The datalink is integrated in the SIT display of the MPCD, among other things.

There -was- a very old (1984) picture of a mock up of this terminal by Sperry IIRC (Sperry was the manufacturer), which I looked for to show you, but unfortunately I cannot find it any more :(

It looks a lot like what you see in BMS Falcon 4 on the F-16.

 

That is all that can be said about F-15 data link at this time.

 

I would like to point out that datalink for DCS Su-27S/SM is possible to model since we know how datalink panel look. Which features data link have would be very hard to know really, So taking a bias position there is pointless. Same as there is more R-27 data compared to aim-120. So there will be educated guesses done again to the point where dreams allow.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

There is no datalink panel on the F-15C any more than there is one for the A-10C. It is just a page on the MPCD.

[pepin1234]

PPS: I changed my mind. I will make a new thread for western datalink later, but right now I am working from a tablet so I will wait until I have a PC :P

 

Good to hear it:thumbup:

 

Do you think do it the same for the Su-27 datalink?? if not, we can do it by ourself, but in that case can you help us for the capability info, or for the non capability info??;)

[GGTharos]

You can see Su-27 datalink in Su-27 manual pepin, it should be available online ... in fact I bet Tek cna post a couple of pics :)

[Teknetinium]

You can see Su-27 datalink in Su-27 manual pepin, it should be available online ... in fact I bet Tek cna post a couple of pics :)

 

I have export version, is not the same as Russian. Ill try to dig up something interesting. You can aswell find datalink panel in FC3 Su-27 cockpit.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Teknetinium

[Esac_mirmidon]

This switch

 

 

Up and Down position ( ON - OFF)

 

If a fighter pilot can´t move one switch up and down and pull the stick, better do something else than flying.

 

And you don´t need to turn off the AoA-G´s limiter a second before, you can turn off whenever you want.

 

So beeing able to reach 120º-160º or unlimited AoA it´s not good or better than limited to 24º or 26º because you loose control of the plane. Great.

 

And a fighter pilot, well trained, don´t know how to use his own aircraft getting confused because he needs to select switches and push buttons. Great.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Esac_mirmidon

[GGTharos]

Then post the Russian one ... and if you cannot get that, then guess what you are going to see in the module ... the export version. Much like if there was some F-15 datalink info, you could expect it to be incomplete. No different than what is going in DCS A-10C ... functional, but things are missing :)

 

Manual for export version is not the same as Russian.

[Esac_mirmidon]

 

AoA is good XDDDDD¡¡¡

[Teknetinium]

Then post the Russian one ... and if you cannot get that, then guess what you are going to see in the module ... the export version. Much like if there was some F-15 datalink info, you could expect it to be incomplete. No different than what is going in DCS A-10C ... functional, but things are missing :)

 

The problem here is if It would be Russian datalink that was not as standard then you would claim with all you have not to implement it in Su-27, not to mention that you can not find it in manual. I will have more competent people in avionics then me valuing your info on F-15 datalink.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Teknetinium