Lucas_From_Hell Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Blimey, 28 pages? Really? :P I remember scrolling past a similar thread back in the Banana Forums (1C) over three years ago, I'm impressed with the longevity of this topic - I'm sure pilots have been discussing it too since 1945 :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerHesse70 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Late to the party, but posting in a legendary thread anyway. Models made from factory drawings are, by virtue of the work process, accurate 3D representations of the original objects. So if the artist who recreated the FW-190 cockpit was a professional, it's pretty likely that the model is accurate representation of that particular cockpit that the drawings were made of. There are, however, things that can change how the cockpit would be perceived in real life vs. in a game. First thing that comes to mind is, like the cockpit model's designer said (quoted earlier in the thread), that when you render a 3D model to a 2D surface, you are doing a projection, and projections don't always necessarily fully correspond to what reality looks like. You could have an orthographic projection (like technical drawings), perspective projection (which is usually what is used in games since it's quite cheap computationally), stereographic projection or equal-area projection or whatever fancy you want to do. The point is, these things rarely match 1:1 with what human visual perception would produce in a real thing. Secondly, again like has been pointed out in the thread, there are actual physical effects which are rarely modeled, but would significantly affect the visibility ahead and over the nose. Refraction, specifically. I feel people have been looking for a "clear shot" right from the view point behind the gunsight to get the "smoking gun" for the bar's existence that they've largely ignored the best picture to illustrate the significance of the refractive effect of the windscreen. Here it is: Why is this a relevant image? Well, despite being outside the cockpit, the camera is still pretty much in the same plane (elevation) as the pilot's head would be. You can see through the windscreen, you can see the elevation of the gunsight in the cockpit, and most importantly you see past the windscreen as well. To gauge the effect of the refraction, you only need to follow the upper edge of this aircraft's engine cowling all the way to the front left corner of the windscreen. Do you see it yet? You don't. And that's the point. You don't see the engine cowling when you look through the windscreen - and that's because the light you see coming from the "lowest" point on the windscreen actually entered the windscreen high enough that it was not blocked by the cowling. The same effect has already been illustrated here wonderfully by some empirical experiments, so I'll just try to make an illustration of what's happening here. Animated version of the effect at different angles of incidence: So, what can we make of this? It seems pretty clear to me that the 3D models of FW-190 cockpits are correct - the location of the outer edge of cockpit glass is probably exactly where it's supposed to be (notwithstanding possible design changes that may cause variations between specific types of aircraft). It also seems obvious that the perspective and refractive issues are probably the main culprits to why the "bar" seems to be high enough to partially obscure the Revi viewport's lower portion. The ideal fix would be to implement a refraction shader on the canopy glass; this would have the advantage of working from all angles of view and making the glass look like glass. The not-so-ideal fix would be to alter the geometry of the cockpit model so that it would appear to pilot's eye position approximately how the pilot would have seen it. In other words, having the edge of the glass slightly lower so it doesn't obscure quite so much of the useable view of the gunsight. This can, however, be a bit of a problem because if you start making changes to 3D model based on making it look "right" from one angle, you risk making it look odd from some other angles. If it's just the cockpit mesh being modified, though, there's not that much of a risk of that issue. Simplest "fix" would be to shift the gunsight and pilot slightly up... :P ...and the easiest thing to do is for us virtual pilots to just adapt to it and create firing solutions that aren't hampered by this "bar". It really isn't that big of a deal either way - we're talking about apparent location difference on the order of centimetres... if you're really pulling lead on something, a few more degrees of visibility on your gunsight's lower edge won't help - but you'll still be able to set up sideways deflection shots where the target travels horizontally through the gunsight, and you can track it all the way from your side windows. I reckon that's more or less the way the actual FW-190 pilots did deflection shooting because the nose gets in the way irrespective of the "bar" blocking gunsight or not. Best post in this thread so far! :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim_Smiles Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I told you, you have to shoot it in the head or it'll come back! "Hurled headlong flaming from the ethereal sky; With hideous ruin and combustion down; To bottomless perdition, there to dwell; In adamantine chains and penal fire" (RIG info is outdated, will update at some point) i5 @3.7GHz (OC to 4.1), 16GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 970 4GB, TrackIR 5 & TrackClip Pro, TM Warthog HOTAS, VKB T-Rudder Mk.IV, Razer Blackshark Headset, Obutto Ozone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avimimus Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassly Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) My Fw190 cockpit bar knowledge is now brought up to new level and most of all up to date. Thanks! :megalol: Edited November 26, 2013 by Bassly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas_From_Hell Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I foresee Dora pilots who didn't read this thread RTBing and declaring in-flight emergencies because of the bar:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted November 26, 2013 ED Team Share Posted November 26, 2013 I foresee Dora pilots who didn't read this thread RTBing and declaring in-flight emergencies because of the bar:D I foresee Dora pilots that take the time to read this entire thread will need to head to a bar and have a number of drinks till they cant see the bar anymore. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongodriver Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I foresee Dora pilots that take the time to read this entire thread will need to head to a bar and have a number of drinks till they cant see the bar anymore. I'll drink to that, alcohol induced blindness never hurt anybody.:thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellfire257 Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 This brings horrible flashbacks of the banana forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I don't remember this subject being on the banana but it sure was at the ubi Zoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBillKelsoe Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Vodka Martini, shaken, not stirred... by the canopy handle please.. Oh, and don't forget the olive. AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB 605 Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I don't care too much about bar but i sure hope we got the new design lite version prop :D CPU: Intel Core i7-2600k @3.40GHz | Motherboard: Asus P8P67-M | Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3 | OS W10 | GPU: Sapphire R9 290x 8GBDDR5 | Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 24" | Devices: Oculus Rift, MS FFB 2 joystick, Saitek X 52 Pro throttle, Saitek Pro pedals, Gametrix Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlipBall Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I don't care too much about bar but i sure hope we got the new design lite version prop :D good idea to kick this horse !...the forum has been really dead till now :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARM505 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Late to the party, but posting in a legendary thread anyway. Models made from factory drawings are, by virtue of the work process, accurate 3D representations of the original objects. *snip* Finally! Nicely summarised. I can't rep you for this post for some reason, so give yourself a +1 internets in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB 605 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Yes, this site needs some life. Even "bar fight" is better than total silence :D CPU: Intel Core i7-2600k @3.40GHz | Motherboard: Asus P8P67-M | Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3 | OS W10 | GPU: Sapphire R9 290x 8GBDDR5 | Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 24" | Devices: Oculus Rift, MS FFB 2 joystick, Saitek X 52 Pro throttle, Saitek Pro pedals, Gametrix Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mprhead Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Has there been any news about how 190 project is coming along? It was supposed to come out sometime first half of this year, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB 605 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I guess this is the latest update, from 12-9-13: "Work on the FW-190 is currently frozen because the programmer assigned to this is still working on the UH-1H. However, because the basic model created in the project is similar to the P-51D, the necessary aerodynamics data for it is ready to be replaced and turn the airframe into a Fw-190D, the engine is ready to be converted from Merlin to Jumo regarding the differences in blower physics and automatics. The guns are equipped with ammo based on historical ballistics and the synchronizers are written to obtain fire rate dependable on prop rpm." CPU: Intel Core i7-2600k @3.40GHz | Motherboard: Asus P8P67-M | Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3 | OS W10 | GPU: Sapphire R9 290x 8GBDDR5 | Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 24" | Devices: Oculus Rift, MS FFB 2 joystick, Saitek X 52 Pro throttle, Saitek Pro pedals, Gametrix Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieter Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I guess this is the latest update, from 12-9-13: "Work on the FW-190 is currently frozen because the programmer assigned to this is still working on the UH-1H. However, because the basic model created in the project is similar to the P-51D, the necessary aerodynamics data for it is ready to be replaced and turn the airframe into a Fw-190D, the engine is ready to be converted from Merlin to Jumo regarding the differences in blower physics and automatics. The guns are equipped with ammo based on historical ballistics and the synchronizers are written to obtain fire rate dependable on prop rpm." How did get to know that the work on the FW-190 is currently frozen ? Hope it will not delay the release of DCS WWII. | I9 9900K | ASUS ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO] |16 GB DDR4 HyperX 3466 MHz | SSD EVO 840 1 TB | MSI 2080TI GAMING X TRIO | ASUS ROG SWIFT PG278Q 27" 2560 X 1440 | TRACK IR 5 | THERMALTAKE CORE X9 | HOTAS WARTHOG |MFG CROSSWIND| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted January 10, 2014 ED Team Share Posted January 10, 2014 How did get to know that the work on the FW-190 is currently frozen ? Hope it will not delay the release of DCS WWII. 190 shouldnt effect DCS WWII as far as I know, but I am not 100% sure. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mprhead Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 How did get to know that the work on the FW-190 is currently frozen ? Hope it will not delay the release of DCS WWII. I see no reason why it should affect on release of WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB 605 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Well i just hope they get that damn whisk Huey fixed soon so they can continue with Dora asap, at least for dcs world :) CPU: Intel Core i7-2600k @3.40GHz | Motherboard: Asus P8P67-M | Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3 | OS W10 | GPU: Sapphire R9 290x 8GBDDR5 | Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 24" | Devices: Oculus Rift, MS FFB 2 joystick, Saitek X 52 Pro throttle, Saitek Pro pedals, Gametrix Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Groove Posted February 13, 2014 ED Team Share Posted February 13, 2014 a company regarded highly for their accuracy.... Two Frequenzwahlschalter for the Fu G 16Y ? Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howie87 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 30 pages of this s#!+ seriously?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aginor Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Let's face it: This thread will never stop! :D DCSW weapons cheat sheet speed cheat sheet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msalama Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 30 pages of this s#!+ seriously?? Hey, this is nothing. You should've seen this particular handbag war back in the IL-2 days. Now THAT was an epitome of sadness! Hundreds of pages of pure BS :megalol: The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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