DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[rel4y]

Yes I can, but can you name me 16 MK IX Squadrons which were supposedly converted to 150 grade in 44?

[Kurfürst]

Also, could you provide a couple of examples perhaps when said Squadrons have actually engaged manned Luftwaffe aircraft?

[HiJack]

Yes I can

No you can't :megalol:

[Talisman_VR]

Nope on all accounts, since its all just basically fantasy. ADGB used it for a couple of months in 1944 while the V-1 campaign necessitated it, and as far as the threads topic is concerned, by only two (2) Spit IX Squadrons, then it withdraw it completely. You would be also hard pressed to find trace of these two Squadrons (nos 1 and 165) over German territory or meeting German fighters in 1944. The next substantial use is when the 2nd TAF begun converting in its Mark Niner Squadrons in February 1945.

 

BTW do you even have any German fighter in DCS? In fact they all run on B-4 fuel and a similarly 'modest' boost rating, just as the Mustang does and the Spit will...

 

Sorry Kurfurst, you lost me there :huh: Are you saying that 150 grade fuel was fantasy for ADGB fighters in 1944 and later with 2nd TAF?

Also, are you saying that the DCS LW fighters are not using the cutting edge fuel of the time and the jet engine Me 262 is not on the way?

I am trying to contribute on-the-level to this debate, but I just don't understand your 'fantasy' remark when there is all the evidence being presented concerning 150 grade fuel.

All I am saying is that the Spit Mk IX 25lbs might not be so out of place on the ED Normandy map as it includes the ADGB area of operations (which clearly operated with more than just 2 Spit Mk IX 25lbs squadrons) as well as the 2nd TAF area of operations. 150 grade fuel was firstly in very common use with ADGB fighters and then by 2nd TAF.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[rel4y]

No you can't :megalol:

 

What? :o Are you completely out of your mind? Seriously, whats your problem?

 

85 and 157 Squadrons, converted 2nd and 3rd of July 44 respectively.

 

Sorry Kurfurst, you lost me there Are you saying that 150 grade fuel was fantasy for ADGB fighters in 1944 and later with 2nd TAF?

Also, are you saying that the DCS LW fighters are not using the cutting edge fuel of the time and the jet engine Me 262 is not on the way?

I am trying to contribute on-the-level to this debate, but I just don't understand your 'fantasy' remark when there is all the evidence being presented concerning 150 grade fuel.

All I am saying is that the Spit Mk IX 25lbs might not be so out of place on the ED Normandy map as it includes the ADGB area of operations (which clearly operated with more than just 2 Spit Mk IX 25lbs squadrons) as well as the 2nd TAF area of operations. 150 grade fuel was firstly in very common use with ADGB fighters and then by 2nd TAF.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

In mid 44 ADGB had 55 Squadrons assigned of which 16 were using 150 grade fuel. Is that supposed to be very common? How is B4 fuel cutting edge? Please guys, stick to the facts.

Edited April 18, 2016 by rel4y

[Krupi]

What? :o Are you completely out of your mind? Seriously, whats your problem?

 

85 and 157 Squadrons, converted 2nd and 3rd of July 44 respectively.

 

 

Happy?

 

25! Spitfire IX Squadrons

[Talisman_VR]

Into Service with the Royal Air Force

 

Following successful testing, the Spitfire IX's Merlin 66 was cleared in March 1944 to use +25 lbs, obtainable with 150 grade fuel. In early May, No. 1 and No. 165 Squadrons comprising the Predannack Wing, were the first to convert their Spitfires to +25 lbs boost and employ 150 grade fuel on operations.

 

The above extract is from:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

 

It is worth noting that the Predannack Wing is quoted as the 'first', not the 'only' or the 'last'.

'First' means that more Spitfire Mk IX aircraft converted after No 1 and 165 Squadrons.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[rel4y]

 

Happy?

 

25! Spitfire IX Squadrons

 

Did you even read the paper? That is the 20/11/44 and it says clearly necessitates modifications to the following aircraft! The switch took over in early 45 and I can even give you squadron logbooks. What?! :mad: Im out... In 44 there were exactly 16 RAF squadrons that we know of to employ 150 grade fuel.

Edited April 18, 2016 by rel4y

[Krupi]

Did you even read the paper? That is the 20/11/44 and it says clearly necessitates modifications to the following aircraft! The switch took over in early 45 and I can even give you squadron logbooks. What?! :mad: Im out... In 44 there were exactly 16 RAF squadrons that we know of to employ 150 grade fuel.

 

This is about the use of 150 grade moving from use on ADGB to 2nd TAF!

 

You can't just ignore the fact that 25 squadrons 2 TAF in addition to ADGB were given the go ahead to use 150 grade fuel

[rel4y]

This is about the use of 150 grade moving from use on ADGB to 2nd TAF!

 

You can't just ignore the fact that 25 squadrons 2 TAF in addition to ADGB were given the go ahead to use 150 grade fuel

 

Where does it say ADGB is using 150 grade fuel in this paper? How many squadrons in 20/11/44? Wait what?!

 

Happy?

25! Spitfire IX Squadrons

Then where does the paper say "25! Spitfire IX Squadrons" were converted to 150 grade fuel in 1944? It requests future changes to enable the use. If it tells us one thing for sure, then it is that 2nd TAF Spitfires did not employ 150 grade fuel as long as at least 20/11/44. The Order of battle for December 31 44 shows exactly 25 squadrons of Spitfires by the way, now thats interesting for a change.

 

I just named two of the Mosquito XIX squadrons which were converted to 150 grad in 44 for evaluation. These are 2 out of the 16 mentioned. What have you guys shown so far? The facts still stand, 16 squadrons of ADGB were using 150 grade in 44 none of 2nd TAF.

Edited April 18, 2016 by rel4y

[Krupi]

What the documents shows is the use of 150 grade in the continent in 1945 by 25 squadrons on top of the ADGB squadrons

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/theater_barrels_tons.html

Edited April 18, 2016 by Krupi

[rel4y]

What the documents shows is the use of 150 grade in the continent in 1945 by 25 squadrons on top of the ADGB squadrons

 

 

The italic part is very right. 2nd TAF used 150 grade starting early 45.

 

Well then please feel free to show me documents stating exactly that (bold part), or show me single squadron documents that prove the use of more than the 16 (evaluation) squadrons in ADGB.

[NineLine]

Here is another fact, the DCS: Spitfire IX wont be equipped with 150 octane initially either. So this discussion is rather pointless right now.

[Talisman_VR]

Below is extract from:http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html

 

PLEASE NOTE: INCLUDES 2 OPERATIONAL REPORTS OF SPITFIRE MK IX 25LBS BOOST ADGB SQUADORNS ON OFFENSIVE OPERATIONS FROM ENGLAND TO THE CONTINENT AND BACK IN 1944.

 

By mid August the V-1 diver threat was largly eliminated with the advance of the allied armies beyond the launching areas. The ADGB squadrons that had converted to 150 grade fuel now found more time to operate over the continent. The Spitfire IX Squadrons were permanently pulled off anti-diver duty on 10 August and went over completely to escort work, sweeps and armed recces. They paid their first visit to Germany on 27 August 1944.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/1-squadron-oprep-27aug44.jpg

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/165_oprep_16sept44.jpg

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Krupi]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150production.html

 

I suppose they just poured all the 150 grade fuel into the channel since they didn't use it... :doh:

 

That is just the British production, over 55% of all fuel produced between 1944 and 1945 was 150 grade

Edited April 18, 2016 by Krupi

[HiJack]

cool it rel4y, I'm just putting logs on your fire ;)

[klem]

Well, for a moment there I though I had stumbled back into the banana forum. And me short on Valium!

 

A lot happened through '44 to mid '45. What we will be having is the Normandy map. Normandy, get it? It's about D-Day and the second half of 1944. Yes I know the 109Ks and 190D-9s are over-represented for the period because that's all we've got and yes, that thinking was a bit skewed considering it would have made more sense to reflect the bulk of LW aircraft numbers given our limited plane set.

 

It's about 2TAF not ADGB. The whole 1944 spectrum can't be covered with what we're getting and at his stage 1945 isn't relevant.

 

Maybe in the future.

 

Meanwhile just roll the damn thing out asap.

[Talisman_VR]

This regarding Operation Crossbow 1944:

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/merlin66_18_25b.jpg

 

Spitfire Mk IX 150 Grade fuel: All squadrons of this type will be similarly modified when present difficulties (back-fires) are overcome.

 

The back-fire issue was quickly overcome and Cabinet meetings are extremely high level, so all Spitfire Mk IX squadrons will have been modified thereafter for "Crossbow".

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[rel4y]

What the documents shows is the use of 150 grade in the continent in 1945 by 25 squadrons on top of the ADGB squadrons

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/theater_barrels_tons.html

 

Sorry but these numbers were calculated by the author himself with data unknown and are what they are. A table you have no info whatsoever about. If you want accurate numbers check primary sources. Here is one for the start.

Edited April 18, 2016 by rel4y

[NineLine]

Guys, please steer back towards the ED module DCS: Spitfire IX, this discussion might be interesting but does nothing for someone coming to look for information on this module.

[MiloMorai]

Guys, please steer back towards the ED module DCS: Spitfire IX, this discussion might be interesting but does nothing for someone coming to look for information on this module.

 

It would be nice if DCS would say more about their Spitfire, and the Normandy map.

[NineLine]

It would be nice if DCS would say more about their Spitfire, and the Normandy map.

 

They will, when there is more to share.

[Zunzun]

First of all I want to remark that I will be happy with a 18lbs spitfire as I think it still will be very competitive against the current Luftwaffe planeset.

But regarding a hypotetical 25lbs don´t see why shouldn´t be possible.

So far, evidence indicates that at least 2 squadron of spitfire IX were using 25lbs boost during the summer. And that they flight combat mission across the chanel. That is more that it can be said of the Kurfust that didn´t see any action in Normandy (And that is the map we are getting).

In fairness, a spit IX at 25lbs is not by any means the most representative spitfire of 1944 but the same can be said of the Kurfust if you compare its numbers during this year with the rest of the 109 that flew during the same period (And the same can be said of Dora). Not to the same extent obviously but clearly not the most representative.

On the other hand, as someone has considered the p-51 that we have in DCS a 1945 version, then, I supposed, it wouldn´t hurt if we have a 1945 spit IX version with 25lbs. The available evidence shown to have been used in numbers during this year.

 

All of this is pointles as we already have this current planeset and the spit will come as 18lbs but sometimes find very funny how logic and numbers are cherry picked to suit owns agendas (I am obviously guilty as well :P).

[Talisman_VR]

Well, for a moment there I though I had stumbled back into the banana forum. And me short on Valium!

 

A lot happened through '44 to mid '45. What we will be having is the Normandy map. Normandy, get it? It's about D-Day and the second half of 1944. Yes I know the 109Ks and 190D-9s are over-represented for the period because that's all we've got and yes, that thinking was a bit skewed considering it would have made more sense to reflect the bulk of LW aircraft numbers given our limited plane set.

 

It's about 2TAF not ADGB. The whole 1944 spectrum can't be covered with what we're getting and at his stage 1945 isn't relevant.

 

Maybe in the future.

 

Meanwhile just roll the damn thing out asap.

 

Flying the DCS Spit Mk IX on the DCS Normandy map will not be all about D-Day. Also, if the Normandy map includes the Channel and the South of England, the Spit Mk IX 25lbs would not be out of place and I have to disagree with you Klem. As a side note it may be worth remembering that ADGB took part in D-Day. Any way, the map is clearly not all about D-Day. They are calling it the Normandy map, but we are getting the English Channel and South Coast of England I believe. If that is correct, clearly the map building potential is not all about D Day. In fact the plane set we have is somewhat divorced from D-Day, so nothing is joined up. My point is that if we have a map that includes Normandy, the English Channel and the South of England, then that is the area of operations we have for the plane set we are given. So, the options we are given includes ADGB and the Spitfire Mk IX they flew in 44/45 (or are we not to bother defending UK airfields when the LW come across the Channel on the DCS map?) as well as 2nd TAF. Lets not get hidebound about this, we have the whole map and plane set to use for our pleasure as delivered by DCS. I am very much looking forward to launching on a raiding mission in a Spitfire Mk IX across the English Channel and back (I hope, lol). I am looking forward to all the opportunities the new map will give us, not just D-Day (particularly as the LW was not about much at the time).

I hope you "get it" now.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Talisman_VR]

Well the general idea is to model the variant that was most common within the time frame (2nd half of 1944) within that model.

 

Obviously to any reasonable man that model is not the one that was present only in 2 Squadrons out of cc. 35 of the same type, and which mostly chased unmanned drones in the summer and made only a couple of completely uneventful sorties meeting no enemy intercepting fighters for perhaps about a month before they were re-set to the standard settings and from that onward were fully identical to the regular type in those 35-odd Squadrons.

 

ED made its choice accordingly with the Mark IXLFc at +18 and perhaps its time to come to terms with that.

 

This thing is Kurfurst, I am not sure that is the "general idea" at all and I suggest that it may be wrong to assume that. My understanding is that DCS are just giving us the Spit Mk IX as a stand alone nice aircraft to have that can be flown on whatever map is available.

The way DCS is delivering the WWII project is not very joined up for understandable historical business reasons I believe, which is why in another thread I asked for detail of what the DCS vision is for WWII. This is a difficult project for DCS to deliver and it is difficult for many of us to understand how and/or why it is being delivered the way it is.

The thing is, on the one hand there is historical aircraft of the time to consider and on the other there is the plane set that has already started to be delivered. In RL, Spitfire Mk IX were not up against 190 Dora and 109-K versions on every single mission undertaken. However, in DCS WWII the Spitfire and all other Allied aircraft are very much up against the 190 Dora and 109-K every single sortie. In DCS world the whole LW is represented by these 2 top ranking aircraft types and the Me 262 is due in the not too distant future too, so surely this needs to be taken into account. Give the RAF and USA its top ranking aircraft, like the Tempest V, Spit XIV and higher fuel grade performing USA aircraft like the Mustang and then work back from there and I suggest that more DCS customers will feel well treated and considered. If delivery of aircraft types is done in a more joined up way from now on, more of us will be at ease. However, it is becoming apparent that the DCS business model is not geared to deliver us an historically joined up programme of aircraft, though I stand to be corrected if I have got that wrong. So, we can expect more threads and posts along the lines of what we have here until enough of the Allied and Axis plane sets are built up and delivered over time, on a "this aircraft is nice to have and fly basis" to give us proper historical map options. I suggest it is going to take a long time to give many WWII enthusiasts the competitive WWII environment they would like to see.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman