DCS: P-47D-30 Discussion

[DSR_T-800]

Is anyone else excited to have their canopy close with the flick of switch? :)

[Rangi]

I can't read the writing next to the switch, is it a flick of the switch to close or hold down until it closed/open?

 

Ps. Ctrl c already does this....

[Pocket Sized]

Motorized canopy?

 

Screw the Hornet, this thing has all the modern features I've ever wanted!

[NineLine]

When it is next in line for release we will get more information about it.

 

Internal chatter is starting to pick up...

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by NineLine

[Rangi]

Internal chatter is starting to pick up...

 

 

So the rumours are true, you do know STUFF.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Betcha he knows THINGS

 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[NineLine]

[Brigg]

so its a definite maybe :megalol:

[Echo38]

We'll know in two weeks.

 

(Be sure.)

[HeadHunter52]

We'll know in two weeks.

 

(Be sure.)

 

tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock

[DSR_T-800]

We'll know in two weeks.

 

(Be sure.)

 

Why two weeks?

[DSR_T-800]

http://p-47.database.pagesperso-orange.fr/index.html

[Pocket Sized]

Why two weeks?

 

Because memes and dead jokes...

 

Nice sig by the way.

[DSR_T-800]

A 16 year old forum post from the Aces High community about telephone conversation with Robert S Johnson the second highest scoring American ace in ETO.

 

"A few months before Robert Johnson died (December 27th, 1998), I conducted nearly five hours of telephone interviews with Bob over the course of three weeks. I managed to record all but the first hour. During our conversations, we discussed the tactics he employed while battling the Luftwaffe. The following are some excerpts of our discussions:

 

CCJ: I have read an article about you and the tactics you used, that described you as one of the first fighter pilots to truly fight in the vertical plane.

 

RSJ: I don't know about that, there were others who fought that way.

 

CCJ: But not in the Thunderbolt....

 

RSJ: No, I guess not, at least when we first went operational.

 

CCJ: Can you describe how you used vertical maneuvering to your advantage, especially in the heavy-weight Jug?

 

RSJ: I think that you need to understand that everyone thought that the P-47 was a deathtrap. RAF pilots told us that we wouldn't have a chance against single-engine fighters. Those of us who had been flying the P-47 for a while knew otherwise, but there was nothing we could say that would convince the British, or the guys in the 4th.

 

CCJ: Guys in the 4th? You mean the 4th Fighter Group?

 

RSJ: Yeah. They were not at all happy trading in their Spitfires for the Thunderbolt.

 

CCJ: Didn't the 56th surrender their P-47s to the 4th after you arrived?

 

RSJ: Yes, we were told that we would be getting new planes.

 

CCJ: I'll bet that struck a nerve in the 56th.

 

RSJ: It sure did. We already had hundreds of hours in P-47Bs and Cs. No other group of pilots in the ETO had anywhere near our experience in the Thunderbolt. So naturally, we were not happy to hand them over to another Group. In retrospect, it was obviously a good idea. We realized as soon as we got into combat that there was no substitute for actual combat missions under your belt. Anyway, we trained the 4th on the Thunderbolt and then waited for what seemed like forever, to get our new planes.

 

CCJ: To get back to tactics, how did your tactics evolve?

 

RSJ: My tactics were rooted in what I had learned flying the P-47 in the States. We could always find some Navy Corsairs over Long Island Sound. We would bounce them, or they would try to bounce us. Usually, we had the advantage in height so the Corsairs were a lot busier than us.

 

CCJ: I take it that you seldom let an opportunity to jump them go waste?

 

RSJ: No, we usually went straight for them.

 

CCJ: Didn't they see you rolling in?

 

RSJ: Sometimes. We tried to use the sun to hide in. If they didn't spot us, we would lay it on them good. Their first hint that we were there was when we tore through them at high speed and zoomed back up above them.

 

CCJ: How did they react?

 

RSJ: They would usually scatter every which way. We would come back down on them again, but they would be alert now and break into us.

 

CCJ: I guess that is the point where it would break down into a big brawl?

 

RSJ: It did at first. The Corsair was just a fast as the Thunderbolt was around 20,000 feet., and it was very maneuverable. As we mixed it up and lost altitude, the Corsair became a real handful to outfly with our P-47Bs. I discovered that the Corsair pilots did not like fighting up hill. What I mean is, they would not or maybe could not follow you if you pulled the nose up into a steep climb. I realized that the Corsair couldn't climb any better than the P-47, and would tend to spin out of a vertical stall. I also found that that any P-47, even the P-47B, could out-dive the Corsair. So that gave me two important advantages that I would use every chance I got.

 

CCJ: So these mock dogfights helped you learn how to exploit the inherent strengths of the Thunderbolt.

 

RSJ: Yes, very much so.

 

CCJ: What about facing the Fw 190 and Messerschmitts?

 

RSJ: The Focke Wulf reminded me of the Corsair. It was much smaller of course, but they both had similar maneuverability. It wasn't quite as fast, but turned well. It was unusual to find Focke Wulfs above us. Generally, we held the advantage in height.

The Me 109 was another story. They could often be seen up above 35,000 feet.

 

CCJ: What was the biggest mistake a German pilot could make?

 

RSJ: Trying to escape in a dive or split-S.

 

CCJ: Why?

 

RSJ: Because they were not going to out-run the Thunderbolt in a dive.

 

CCJ: You could catch them without a problem.

 

RSJ: I could catch them in nothing flat.

 

CCJ: Really?

 

RSJ: Absolutely. One thing about the 190, if the pilot continued his dive below 7 or 8 thousand feet, he could not pull out before he hit the ground. I guess they had compressibility problems or the elevators got too stiff. Whatever the problem was, I watched several of them pancake in before they could level off.

 

CCJ: What about the Thunderbolt?

 

RSJ: It did not have that problem down that low. Up high, above 25,000 feet, yes, I could get into compressibility and the elevators locked up like they were in concrete. But once you got down to thicker air, you regained control.

 

CCJ: So, what would you do if suddenly discovered a German fighter on your tail?

 

RSJ: you mean in close?

 

CCJ: Yes.

 

RSJ: That depended a lot on how fast the German was going. If he was moving much faster, I'd simply side-step him by rolling.

The German would whiz right on by and I would firewall the throttle and take off after him. If he was a smart German, he would climb straight ahead. If he was a dumb German, he would try to turn. If he turns, his higher speed will make for a wide turn, and I will cut across and be all over him. If he dives, I can follow and eventually catch up. Now, if the German's speed was close to mine, then I had another emergency maneuver that always worked for me.

 

CCJ: And, that was?

 

RSJ: I would pull the nose straight up into a vertical rolling spiral, usually to the left. You would stall out, but so would the guy behind you. That killed his advantage.

 

CCJ: So, what you are describing sounds like a rolling hammerhead stall, right?

 

RSJ: That's a pretty good description.

 

CCJ: So what happens next?

 

RSJ: Well, the enemy would stall first because the Jug's mass allowed to retain its,

er...

 

CCJ: Energy?

 

RSJ: Yes, energy. The P-47's mass allowed it to retain its energy better and it stalled a few seconds after the enemy plane. The German would snap over and head down. Except, now I was right behind him and there was no getting away.

 

CCJ: Wouldn't he still be directly behind you?

 

RSJ: No. Pulling up so suddenly always caught them by surprise. The second or two that it took for them to react took care of that.

 

CCJ: Why did you roll?

 

RSJ: Because that killed my speed faster than the enemy if he didn't, which gained me the advantage of being to his rear as he zoomed up. If he rolled too, that also worked to my advantage because it killed his speed faster than mine.

 

CCJ: So, you would get the advantage no matter what, if the German also pulled up into a vertical climb. What if he didn't follow?

 

RSJ: Then he would just fly by. If he still wanted to fight, he could extend out and turn around, but I would be waiting for him.

If he turned either left or right, I would be on him in a few seconds.

 

CCJ: The smart Germans just kept on going when you pulled up.

 

RSJ: I never ran across one smart enough to keep going. They all tried to follow.

 

CCJ: How many got away after falling for your trap?

 

RSJ: I really can't say for sure. Some got away because he had friends to cover his tail. Besides, that maneuver was not so much to get him, but to prevent him from getting me. In that respect, it always worked.

 

CCJ: Much has been written about the incredible roll rate of the Fw 190. Was it as good as they say?

 

RSJ: The 190 rolled very fast. But, so did the Thunderbolt.

 

CCJ: But not as quickly as the Focke Wulf.

 

RSJ: I would say just as fast. I never had a 190 out-roll my Jug. Never.

 

CCJ: What about a situation where you end up in rolling scissors with a Focke Wulf? Do you follow him by reversing the turn too?

 

RSJ: No. Whenever you get into a series of reverses, the airplane tends to mush-out a bit when you reverse your turn. The Jug tended to mush a bit more than the 190. The way to avoid this was roll into the reverse.

 

CCJ: I'm not sure I follow you.

 

RSJ: Picture this in your mind. The 190 rolls into a hard left. You follow, firing as he crosses your guns. Suddenly, he reverses his turn, hard right. Rather than reverse, you continue rolling left until you are in a right bank, just like the 190. Now, pull hard. No mushing. If he reverses again, you roll left and fire as he crosses your guns again. If he doesn't reverse, I pull the nose high and roll out behind him.

 

CCJ: A high yo-yo?

 

RSJ: Of a sorts, yes. Continuing the roll simply eliminated the mushing caused by reversing a turn and I could would get a clear shot every time the enemy reversed.

 

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

 

RSJ: It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.

Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

 

CCJ: I remember reading where you thought that your P-47 was the fastest fighter in the ETO.

 

RSJ: I still believe that it was.

 

CCJ: Really?

 

RSJ: Sure. My second Jug, a D-5 was the best P-47 that I ever flew, and I flew them all, including the P-47M which the 56th got near the end of the war.

 

CCJ: What made this one Thunderbolt so fast?

 

RSJ: Several things. My crew sanded every joint smooth, and waxed it to a high gloss. Factory technical reps showed my crew chief, Pappy Gould, how to adjust the wastegates to keep the boost pressure higher than normal. My D-5, which I named Lucky, had water injection. I never used the water injection in combat. I didn't need it. From time to time I'd switch it on, push the throttle up to 72" of manifold pressure and the head rest would smack me from behind. I would let her run for a few minutes just for the fun of it.

 

CCJ: 72 inches!? Did you ever take note of your airspeed during one of those runs?

 

RSJ: Of course.

 

CCJ: And....... how fast did it go?

 

RSJ: I've seen just over 300 at altitude.

 

CCJ: 300 indicated?

 

RSJ: Yes.

 

CCJ: What was your altitude?

 

RSJ: I guess it was right around 32,000 feet.

 

CCJ: Geez, thats well over 450 mph!

 

RSJ: Oh, I figure closer to 470.

 

CCJ: Maybe you did have the fastest fighter in the ETO after all.

 

RSJ: Like I said, Lucky was the fastest.

 

CCJ: What ever happened to Lucky?

 

RSJ: She was lost in a mid-air collision over the North Sea. I don't recall the pilot's name who was flying her on that ramrod. I was very upset. Lucky got at least 24 enemy aircraft and was the best Jug I ever flew. She was trouble free and I never had a single abort while flying her.

 

CCJ: Bob, one final item before I let you go tonight.

 

RSJ: Sure.

 

CCJ: Is it true that you flew two 25 hour tour extensions after your 25th victory, and that you never were involved in a single combat during that time?

 

RSJ: Basically, yes. I took a 25 hour extension with the idea that as soon as I got 2 more enemy aircraft, I would stop there and go home. After the 25 hours were up and I hadn't had a chance to even fire at an enemy airplane, so I convinced the brass to give me another 25 hour extension under the same understanding. Finally, on the last mission of that tour, I got two more and they sent me home.

 

CCJ: Why do you think that German fighters became so hard to come by at that time. When was that, in April and May of 1944?

 

RSJ: I can't say for sure, but we now know that the long range of the P-38 and P-51 caused the Luftwaffe to pull back many of their fighter squadrons deep into Germany. This makes sense when you think that we could put up over 600 P-47s for a ramrod. If they pull back beyond the range of the Jugs, we won't see much of them. Another thing was simple bad luck. When the Germans did come up to fight, they attacked the bombers well away from our assigned area. So, it really was a combination of factors.

 

CCJ: So, what was the date of your last two victories?

 

RSJ: May 8th, 1944.

 

CCJ: Well, Bob, I'll let you go now. Thanks for your time. This will make for a terrific article.

 

RSJ: It was my pleasure.

 

CCJ: Are you up for another discussion in a week or two?

 

RSJ: If you don't mind my long stories, sure. You can call almost anytime.

 

CCJ: Believe me, it's an honor for me. By the way, Art Heiden, your remember me talking about Art, Art wants to talk to you about Jack. Do you mind if I pass your number to him?

 

RSJ: Please do.

 

CCJ: Well, thanks again and have a good evening.

 

RSJ: You to."

 

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=27675.0

Edited April 2, 2017 by DSR_T-800

[Coyote Duster]

Been following this thread for awhile thought I'd add a little spice of my own:

 

Yes the stang has been getting its nose bloodied for awhile now, that's mostly do to lone wolfing though, but speaking from personal experience, if flown at altitude with speed and with a wingman your odds will skyrocket, we've achieved many kills for fewer losses, (i can prove it) i never hop on the ww2 servers without my good friend and wingman.

 

As far as the jet menace goes the stangs and jugs would just tail them back to their airbases and nail them taking off or landing, so much so that the jet bases had to have fws patrol above and with increased aaa. The engines were tempermental and would flame if mishandled and im sure going hard at the throttle all the time will reduce the endurance of the plane as well. It also turns like a shopping cart. I feel though the servers should limit the me-262 to 2 or 4 planes to simulate the rarity of coming across one in a dogfight.

 

Now with addition of the jug, people will be more inclined to do ground attack missions in the game now, and I can see attacking airbases in the future more of a reality now, since doing so in the stang is suicide thanks to its glass jaw engine, but thats mostly due to the accurate aaa that wasn't in ww2, (but the 88 and flak 38 will be dangerous nevertheless)

[shaunwallis21]

Been following this thread for awhile thought I'd add a little spice of my own:

 

Yes the stang has been getting its nose bloodied for awhile now, that's mostly do to lone wolfing though, but speaking from personal experience, if flown at altitude with speed and with a wingman your odds will skyrocket, we've achieved many kills for fewer losses, (i can prove it) i never hop on the ww2 servers without my good friend and wingman.

 

As far as the jet menace goes the stangs and jugs would just tail them back to their airbases and nail them taking off or landing, so much so that the jet bases had to have fws patrol above and with increased aaa. The engines were tempermental and would flame if mishandled and im sure going hard at the throttle all the time will reduce the endurance of the plane as well. It also turns like a shopping cart. I feel though the servers should limit the me-262 to 2 or 4 planes to simulate the rarity of coming across one in a dogfight.

 

Now with addition of the jug, people will be more inclined to do ground attack missions in the game now, and I can see attacking airbases in the future more of a reality now, since doing so in the stang is suicide thanks to its glass jaw engine, but thats mostly due to the accurate aaa that wasn't in ww2, (but the 88 and flak 38 will be dangerous nevertheless)

 

 

you dont haveto prove anything it is well known that the mustang is the definitive team based superiority figter. because of one of the highest sustained top speed , dive acceleration and fuel economy at high speed.

 

you cant beat mustang team in a sustained battle if they have more fuel. keyword sustained.

[DSR_T-800]

Been following this thread for awhile thought I'd add a little spice of my own:

 

Yes the stang has been getting its nose bloodied for awhile now, that's mostly do to lone wolfing though, but speaking from personal experience, if flown at altitude with speed and with a wingman your odds will skyrocket, we've achieved many kills for fewer losses, (i can prove it) i never hop on the ww2 servers without my good friend and wingman.

 

As far as the jet menace goes the stangs and jugs would just tail them back to their airbases and nail them taking off or landing, so much so that the jet bases had to have fws patrol above and with increased aaa. The engines were tempermental and would flame if mishandled and im sure going hard at the throttle all the time will reduce the endurance of the plane as well. It also turns like a shopping cart. I feel though the servers should limit the me-262 to 2 or 4 planes to simulate the rarity of coming across one in a dogfight.

 

Now with addition of the jug, people will be more inclined to do ground attack missions in the game now, and I can see attacking airbases in the future more of a reality now, since doing so in the stang is suicide thanks to its glass jaw engine, but thats mostly due to the accurate aaa that wasn't in ww2, (but the 88 and flak 38 will be dangerous nevertheless)

 

The P-51D can escape a K4 and Dora as long as you've got the altitude to dive + a base to run too. After a high speed dive the K4 doesn't even hold a candle to the P-51 in a zoom neither does the Dora. Mustang high speed roll rate is far superior to even that of the Dora, but the Dora doesn't break its wings like the P-51 when gentle pulling on the stick ;). Honestly as an advocate for 75"Hg boost, the tools are already here to defeat the Germans, its just people aren't using them. But that doesn't change the fact that the P-51 should have its rightful boost. A squad of 2 P-51s in theory should be untouchable because the moment you utilize the superior dives and zooms of the P-51 it completely negates the Bf-109K4s turning and speed advantage. And of course same thing would apply to the P-47 but at a higher altitude. But for some reason in DCS people love TNB regardless of which plane they are flying.

 

Me-262 should be limited to a ratio of props to jets. 1:20 seems fair so on a full server on Burning Skies you can have a flight of 2 Me-262 which would be a real challenge to defeat. Unfortunately I have a feeling we are going to see entire teams Me-262 against an equal number P-51s and Spitfires. As people will always flock towards the better plane, hence why you find more K4 than anything else.

 

The Tempest would be a nice addition as a Me-262 killer. Or even better a P-47M cleared for 76"Hg @ rougly 2955HP :)

Edited April 3, 2017 by DSR_T-800

[Coyote Duster]

The P-51D can escape a K4 and Dora as long as you've got the altitude to dive + a base to run too. After a high speed dive the K4 doesn't even hold a candle to the P-51 in a zoom neither does the Dora. Mustang high speed roll rate is far superior to even that of the Dora, but the Dora doesn't break its wings like the P-51 when gentle pulling on the stick ;). Honestly as an advocate for 75"Hg boost, the tools are already here to defeat the Germans, its just people aren't using them. But that doesn't change the fact that the P-51 should have its rightful boost. A squad of 2 P-51s in theory should be untouchable because the moment you utilize the superior dives and zooms of the P-51 it completely negates the Bf-109K4s turning and speed advantage. And of course same thing would apply to the P-47 but at a higher altitude. But for some reason in DCS people love TNB regardless of which plane they are flying.

 

Me-262 should be limited to a ratio of props to jets. 1:20 seems fair so on a full server on Burning Skies you can have a flight of 2 Me-262 which would be a real challenge to defeat. Unfortunately I have a feeling we are going to see entire teams Me-262 against an equal number P-51s and Spitfires. As people will always flock towards the better plane, hence why you find more K4 than anything else.

 

The Tempest would be a nice addition as a Me-262 killer. Or even better a P-47M cleared for 76"Hg @ rougly 2955HP :)

 

A p-47m? It'll be over for the lufts then! lol but even at high speeds you can turn with a k4 and even if he turns tighter with the speed you have you can just pull a high yo-yo, I'm seeing stang drivers get better though, and rolling in a dive always gets the 109s off of you.

[Coyote Duster]

you dont haveto prove anything it is well known that the mustang is the definitive team based superiority figter. because of one of the highest sustained top speed , dive acceleration and fuel economy at high speed.

 

you cant beat mustang team in a sustained battle if they have more fuel. keyword sustained.

 

I agree 100%

[Tomsk]

The P-51D can escape a K4 and Dora as long as you've got the altitude to dive + a base to run too. After a high speed dive the K4 doesn't even hold a candle to the P-51 in a zoom neither does the Dora. Mustang high speed roll rate is far superior to even that of the Dora, but the Dora doesn't break its wings like the P-51 when gentle pulling on the stick ;).

 

This works pretty well against 109s ... but you're probably not going to gain a serious advantage by trying to out dive/zoom a Dora. The P-51 is a little more aerodynamic .. but the Dora has a higher sustained top-speed on the deck. My experience (both flying the P-51 and Dora) is they are fairly comparable in the diving game, and the Dora is definitely less likely to break.

 

Honestly as an advocate for 75"Hg boost, the tools are already here to defeat the Germans, its just people aren't using them.

 

Actually the biggest hindrance for the P-51 at the moment, IMHO is not the boost (though that would help) but the weaponry. The 50 cals currently just don't cut it for the kind of slashing attacks the P-51 is best suited to.

 

I do agree that the tools for defeating the Germans are there, although I do think the Allies are at a disadvantage in terms of aircraft performance. I think the biggest thing allied pilots could do to improve their survival is to climb. Germans pilots (as a rule) gain altitude, and the allies don't. If you hold the altitude advantage in a superior performing plane then there's little your opponent can do to threaten you if flown properly. This is very much my experience when flying the Dora: if you have the altitude advantage you are more or less untouchable.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Tomsk

[Zunzun]

The Tempest would be a nice addition as a Me-262 killer. Or even better a P-47M cleared for 76"Hg @ rougly 2955HP :)

 

Never seen this rating for the -M. Always "only" the 72" and 2800hp. Where did you find it?

[Barrett_g]

The P-47M would be awesome.... and a P-47N for Pacific theaters!

[JuliMonkey]

I dont know anything about the p47 but i like it. I am more into german ww2 tanks and planes. So what is the climb rate of the p47?

How does it turn? If you know a german plane that turned about as fast as the p47 tell me.

[DSR_T-800]

Never seen this rating for the -M. Always "only" the 72" and 2800hp. Where did you find it?

 

My bad, it wasn't cleared for 76"Hg but tested at 76"Hg. One engine failed and its assumed it was because of the higher power settings. The decisions whether or not to clear the P-47M for 76"Hg is undecided. Which is interesting because the P-47M was tested up to far greater manifold pressures.

 

However there is an interview of a pilot talking about a another pilot over boosting his P-47M to 85"Hg.

 

I dont know anything about the p47 but i like it. I am more into german ww2 tanks and planes. So what is the climb rate of the p47?

How does it turn? If you know a german plane that turned about as fast as the p47 tell me.

 

The P-47 is the heaviest single engine fighter of WW2. The P-47 was known for its superb high altitude performance and on the other hand its ability to be a great ground attack aircraft. The plane was arguable known for "breaking the Luftwaffe back" in early 1944. Its most unique feature is its turbocharger which allows the plane to produce the same power at seal level all the way up to its critical altitude. In this case, 2600hp to 29,000ft. To put that in comparison the Fw-190D9 only produces 1200hp at the same altitude. If I were to compare the P-47 to one German aircraft it would be a Ta-152C, fast, quick roll rate,mediocre rate of climb and great high altitude performance.

 

The rate of climb was always considered relatively poor, in this case it will be around 3,200ft/min(16m/s) bar none the slowest climber at SL out of all the WW2 modules in DCS. However, the P-47 will be able to close the gap on rate of climb between the other aircraft as altitude increases.

 

Again probably one of the worst sustained turners of WW2 at the lower altitudes. Now of course with speed you'll be able to turn with most aircraft, but you'll never be able to sustain a turn with any of the WW2 modules at lower altitudes. But of course again with altitude the P-47 should be able to out turn the Fw-190D9 and maybe turn with a Bf-109K4.

 

Speed, IMO at the pick of its performance which was in early 1944 the P-47 was easily faster than anything the Luftwaffe could throw at it. However DCS is a completely different scenario so its speed advantages are only(you guessed it) at high altitude.

 

 

 

Note: P-47 top speeds are incorrect at SL

 

In short the P-47 should be flown like a Fw-190. If you love being able to dive away from pesky Spitfires then you'll love the P-47 because that's what is does best, lol. Also the D-30 variant we will have in game has dive recovery flaps which will make exiting compressibility easier.

Edited April 5, 2017 by DSR_T-800

[Pocket Sized]

Wait, does the P-47's supercharger smoothly regulate manifold pressure with altitude as opposed to the jarring "high gear" transition we get in the 51/spitfire?