Questions regarding the stability and control of the Mustang

[Der_Fred]

..but you are not flying with the same physical stick that a real pilot does.

Then I'm afraid you have lost because you think you are different

[Nate--IRL--]

Then I'm afraid you have lost because you think you are different

 

I don't understand, can you explain?

 

Nate

[PeterP]

Then I'm afraid you have lost because you think you are different

I'm not afraid,

I'm just telling you something (someone knows if I'm right or wrong):

Now you just started a argument about a argumentation.

 

(This whole thread is very bizarre! I read it from post #1 to the end... , but after the end there are 20 other posts... :))

Edited December 31, 2013 by PeterP

[Der_Fred]

I'm not a very good teacher (the wiff tells me so )

but I'll try :-)

Look at this clip... I mean really look at it at few times

Then tell me something, right or wrong - I'm open for ideas

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/een744kwlohrc9v/QOH4.f4v

[PeterP]

sorry for my ignorance:

 

QOH4.f4v

81,34 MB

 

Please explain in short sentences what to see before I decide to download.

[Der_Fred]

Please explain in short sentences what to see before I decide to download.

Imagine yourself trying to 'sight' me in Queen Of Hearts...I'd think that would be enough :-)

[Echo38]

Fred, are you trying to be incomprehensible? : /

[ZaltysZ]

my short summary: Yes , you can have xxx with a rubber-doll, and you can also "fly" without a FFB stick at the desktop ... it's doable..., sure... , many do it this way.....

 

Rubber doll would never make you feel guilty for spending your hard earned money on new sim instead of buying her a pair of new shoes. Just saying... :D

[Nate--IRL--]

I'm not a very good teacher (the wiff tells me so )

but I'll try :-)

Look at this clip... I mean really look at it at few times

Then tell me something, right or wrong - I'm open for ideas

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/een744kwlohrc9v/QOH4.f4v

 

Can you point out what you feel is wrong? Specifically.

 

Nate

[MegOhm_SD]

Back to the original OP..

 

Dad plays FSX all the time and is new to DCS, which tells me he is new to AFM...

 

To me this is part of his problem...Does he expect it to be as easy as FSX?...seems so.

 

Perhaps Dad is "Hamfisting" this bird...which you cannot do.

 

Just sayin...

Edited December 31, 2013 by MegOhm_SD

[Psyrixx]

At this point, I think this is a case of horses, water and so on. ;)

 

You can also lead a troll to water, but he'll just live under the bridge instead. ;)

[markwilliam]

Wow.....lol.

 

Folks...I could absolutely care less about my reputation on this forum. I think it's pretty friggin hilarious that this feature even exists. Red blue green.....its all just letters and numbers on my screen to me.

So by that measure. You folks have more than proven my point by your responses. Your answers are not solutions...they're attacks on someone who doesn't live for this game and sees it for what it is. Just look through this thread and carefully read every response. Everything I have said is carefully and painstakingly restated in this topic as not to hurt anyone's feelings. And indeed.....my feelings are not hurt by your responses to me. Why??? Two reasons......1. I have a life and don't really care about this game all that much. Nor do I have the time or energy (after living my life) to think all that much about it or this forum. 2. Everything I have stated here is based on my personal experience with DCS and this game. I am sure that all of you have boatloads of your own experiences. And from your very soft and subtle replies....many of you have had the same experience. As for the whole joystick issue.....man who really cares. If you got the time and money to sink into it...go for it. But there are those of us with real expenses and real lives outside of this thing. And if I can fly Xplane or FSX, or any sim without having to invest $500 in hardware, and on top of that if I have to go months (as was stated on another individual on another thread of this same forum) before I can get anything out of this sim.....then it's just not everyone's cup of tea. Certainly not mine from what I'm gathering by the attitude of this forum.

If you guys think I am full of myself then go invest in Xplane and see the difference. I promise you this.......you'll not like the way DCS handles compared to Xplane. You can actually fly the Xplane P-51 without having to adjust every friggin axis or button in the game. Realism is one thing......making the sim so hard to deal with on any level is another.

And again....I really do like playing around with the P-51. But I know that it is not by any means remotely close to its real world counterpart. And....that is my point. Who cares if it is or is not....the gentleman who posted this thread made a statement. I merely agreed and explained why. Every mother's son of a brother had to attack it as though I were calling their mother a nasty name. And guess what...I knew that you would. Horses....water...read your own forum.........lol

hmmm.......reputation.....ROFL. Get real.......Freedom of speech.....yeah, right.

[NineLine]

And if I can fly Xplane or FSX, or any sim without having to invest $500 in hardware

 

You arent reading.... I was rocking a thrustmaster T-Flight HOTAS X, which is all of 40 bucks, for a long time.... what you should be reading is the less you spend on hardware the more you may find you need to tweak, but even then, its all based on the user, I personally never used curves... I can fly the P-51D just fine....

 

 

Anyways, I will ask that the thread die off with what little self respect it has. I see you are giving away your A-10 keys in another thread, if DCS isnt the place for you then just let it go. If you truly want help, there are people here willing to help if you are willing to listen.

[msalama]

...if you are willing to listen.

 

Which he isn't. Which is exactly why some folks, including myself, got a wee bit lippy with him ;)

[msalama]

And if I can fly Xplane or FSX, or any sim without having to invest $500 in hardware

 

As I can each and every DCS flyable with my T-Flight HOTAS & a set of cheapo pedals, so your point is?

[ZaltysZ]

I said exactly that in my post above. Unless your hardware matches the real thing, or is at least capable of the same stick throw, you will have to use Curves to calibrate and dampen your input to the sim.

 

But what if I have a "curve" in my head and it auto-magically fixes my input? :)

 

Let's drop a sim context for a while and take a Real Time Strategy game as an example. The main control device is mouse there. Brains command the hand movement and feedback is given by eyes tracking the pointer. Basically: move hand, check current pointer position vs target position, adjust hand, repeat...

 

This "pointer tracking" works extremely well for various mouse sensitivity settings until either control device becomes a limiting factor (the smallest input registrable by it is too large for intended input) or hand can't give precise enough input. The first problem can be solved by changing the device to more precise one, and the second can be alleviated by improving motor skills.

 

However, there is still one more issue, which becomes noticeable only when mouse sensitivity is changed suddenly. Brains get used to certain mouse sensitivity (pointer movement vs hand movement) and habituation happens: brains decreases the frequency of checking the pointer position and begin to send commands to hand while depending on prediction most of the time. This allows quickly moving pointer from corner to corner even while not looking at the screen and so on. Once habituation happens, usage of different mouse sensitivity settings becomes extremely difficult and requires great focus. This is solvable only through practice as brains need time to "unlearn" old sensitivity and readjust.

 

I think Der Fred is saying that stick throw is not important if your motor skills are good enough, because brains can adjust. I have tried flying P51 with WT while using linear response with 80% outside deadzones, i.e. making the stick x5 sensitive. It looked a bit twitchy at first, but began to feel like old P51 after 30min. My brains readjusted because I (as sim) pilot almost exclusively use visual information for determining what input I should give. This is an analogy to tracking the mouse pointer.

 

However, Der Fred might a bit underestimate the importance of habituation, especially for older people. This is where stick throw becomes important. If person got used to large stick throw, large resistance, feedback through stick forces and so on, switching to desktop stick can easily break control prediction used in real life and show lack of fine motor skills, which are not needed in real world flying. Some thing must be learned and some unlearned before erratic flying stops. It is not hard, and you can even get away with single curve adjustment. The one titled "expectation of instant gratification". :D

[msalama]

stick throw is not important if your motor skills are good enough

 

Maybe up to an extent. But no motor skills can overcome the physical friction and coarse input resolution inherent to all short throw controllers, meaning you either have to use curves or physically extend the controller shaft to make it more realistic. Well just my $0.002 but still ;)

[gavagai]

FFB is the answer. Don't fly the P-51 without it.:joystick:

[Davee]

Maybe up to an extent. But no motor skills can overcome the physical friction and coarse input resolution inherent to all short throw controllers, meaning you either have to use curves or physically extend the controller shaft to make it more realistic. Well just my $0.002 but still ;)

 

 

Agreed,

Or . . . . . . have the devs make the adjustment within the core program to compensate for short stick throws. Some tweaking needs to be done between the physical input and the model to initiate the "feel" of stick/rudder response.

 

Just stating that they try to model all areas of the SIM as realistically as possible is great - for all the mathematics involved in making the aircraft respond to flight conditions - but the link to the human - the stick - needs to be modified as very few folks have a full length stick in their setup and there-in lies the rub.

 

This IMHO is not tweaking the flight model in any way - it is mathematically compensating for the current real-world desktop to meld with the simulation of real world flying.

[NineLine]

But isnt it better that the model the actual flight controls of the P-51 and give us the options to adjust accordingly? I dont think its reasonable for them to adjust the controls to every possible stick combo out there. When you do everything else by the actual flight data it would seem off to start guessing and adjusting based on a short stick or other factors.

 

Agreed,

Or . . . . . . have the devs make the adjustment within the core program to compensate for short stick throws. Some tweaking needs to be done between the physical input and the model to initiate the "feel" of stick/rudder response.

 

Just stating that they try to model all areas of the SIM as realistically as possible is great - for all the mathematics involved in making the aircraft respond to flight conditions - but the link to the human - the stick - needs to be modified as very few folks have a full length stick in their setup and there-in lies the rub.

 

This IMHO is not tweaking the flight model in any way - it is mathematically compensating for the current real-world desktop to meld with the simulation of real world flying.

[NineLine]

Lets stay way from the personal attacks guys... if they continue I will have to lock the thread.

[TwoLate]

When I just fly the P-51 around and do some ground pounding I have no problem. When I start dogfighting a 190 I will have difficult in keeping it from departing. I have the Hotas Warthog. If anybody has the same would they be so nice as to share their curves with me to try to see if that would help. I now use a linear curve that is default. I am one that is open to learn.

 

Thanks

 

O yes I forgot I did read all pages of this.

Edited January 3, 2014 by TwoLate
Adding read all post

[ZaltysZ]

When I just fly the P-51 around and do some ground pounding I have no problem. When I start dogfighting a 190 I will have difficult in keeping it from departing. I have the Hotas Warthog. If anybody has the same would they be so nice as to share their curves with me to try to see if that would help. I now use a linear curve that is default. I am one that is open to learn.

 

Thanks

 

O yes I forgot I did read all pages of this.

 

Go to T.A.R.G.E.T, click "Control Center Deadzone" under WT Joystick picture and make sure that check box is unchecked. Please note, that your stick won't be centered perfectly anymore, however this will give smoother response when you have to fly in out of trim situations and have to move past center a lot.

 

Next, bind elevator and aileron trim controls, push your P51 out of trim: nose up, right wing dip, so that you have to hold stick slightly forward and left to fly level. Do some strafing and rocket runs. Do that for 30-60 min or so. If you can achieve plausible accuracy, you don't need any curves. The problem while dogfighting is somewhere else.

 

The most likely suspects are: elevator reversal, uncoordinated "ball to the side" turning, unintentional crossing of controls (i.e. too much aileron while pulling Gs). I personally had elevator reversal as the main reason for my departs until I learned to ease up a bit once desired Gs were reached.

[Davee]

But isnt it better that the model the actual flight controls of the P-51 and give us the options to adjust accordingly? I dont think its reasonable for them to adjust the controls to every possible stick combo out there. When you do everything else by the actual flight data it would seem off to start guessing and adjusting based on a short stick or other factors.

 

Agreed,

I misspoke referring to the variety of sticks. What I meant to say was to have the ability to adjust stick response and option in the "Options" area with more latitude to compensate to some degree for stick response variation.

 

Most sticks operate within similar min/max outputs. But how quickly they output from point to point varies and I think something similar to "Rudder Assist" for those that need it would be great.

 

My WARTHOG requires very little input to initiate a large response from the elevators on the current P51. I have to modify the output by extending the middle 2/3rds of the linear response "curve" and moving the min/max out beyond response output. Thereby, creating a false min/max that responds closer towards the middle. But . . . . unfortunately, I lose the proper min/max that is required to pull that nose through in an emergency situation - even at the risk of a high-speed stall. Even using curves I can't get the sensitivity of the stick adjusted to compensate for the link the devs have created between the stick output numbers as linked to the response of the elevators.

 

I truly believe, as this is the only sim I have ever come across with this extreme of sensitivity towards stick input, that there needs to be an area of stick sensitivity adjustment built into the next update on the P51.

 

I'm very excited to see what RRG studios come up with for WWII as they also are in the area of trying to exact correct flight modeling and have much experience in the relation of stick to control surface response.

 

Cheers,

[Davee]

Go to T.A.R.G.E.T, click "Control Center Deadzone" under WT Joystick picture and make sure that check box is unchecked. Please note, that your stick won't be centered perfectly anymore, however this will give smoother response when you have to fly in out of trim situations and have to move past center a lot.

 

Next, bind elevator and aileron trim controls, push your P51 out of trim: nose up, right wing dip, so that you have to hold stick slightly forward and left to fly level. Do some strafing and rocket runs. Do that for 30-60 min or so. If you can achieve plausible accuracy, you don't need any curves. The problem while dogfighting is somewhere else.

 

The most likely suspects are: elevator reversal, uncoordinated "ball to the side" turning, unintentional crossing of controls (i.e. too much aileron while pulling Gs). I personally had elevator reversal as the main reason for my departs until I learned to ease up a bit once desired Gs were reached.

 

 

This is very interesting,

I would be very interested in seeing the curves on your setup.

 

I use script so I often visually look at a curve setup in TARGET and then ckeck the script by clicking on the "view script" button and then transferring it by cut and paste to my TARGET script file.

 

I'm having difficulty in the amount of stick pull back that starts the snap-roll. Just want to get a little movement so I can "feel" the point of stall/snap roll inducement.

 

Thanks,

Cats . . .