Engaging Infantry

[GC1993]

One of my least favourite enemies to kill with the Hog are infantry - partly because they're near impossible to see even with the TGP if you're a long way off, and partly because I struggle to find a suitable weapon.

 

Usually I designate each part of my payload to threats that I know are in the mission, so for example I'll save my mavs for short/mid range SAMs or AAA which I'd have to engage from a long way off, or save CBU 97's/105's for a cluster of armour. As a result of this planning, I am always hesitant to use anything other than the gun on infantry from fear of wasting my better ordanance, but I always find the gun to be a bit disappointing also. It seems (though I might be wrong) that the explosive radius of the rounds are a bit badly modelled? I don't usually switch over the HEI, but even on CM where there are still explosive rounds hitting the floor it seems I almost have to directly hit each person individually to get the kill.

 

Should I always be using HEI for engaging infantry? If not, anyone got a little tip for a better weapon to use against them without using the bigger stuff needed for other threats in the mission?

[Flagrum]

One of my least favourite enemies to kill with the Hog are infantry - partly because they're near impossible to see even with the TGP if you're a long way off, and partly because I struggle to find a suitable weapon.

 

Usually I designate each part of my payload to threats that I know are in the mission, so for example I'll save my mavs for short/mid range SAMs or AAA which I'd have to engage from a long way off, or save CBU 97's/105's for a cluster of armour. As a result of this planning, I am always hesitant to use anything other than the gun on infantry from fear of wasting my better ordanance, but I always find the gun to be a bit disappointing also. It seems (though I might be wrong) that the explosive radius of the rounds are a bit badly modelled? I don't usually switch over the HEI, but even on CM where there are still explosive rounds hitting the floor it seems I almost have to directly hit each person individually to get the kill.

 

Should I always be using HEI for engaging infantry? If not, anyone got a little tip for a better weapon to use against them without using the bigger stuff needed for other threats in the mission?

HEI should be the way to go for soft targets. The fact that shrapnell effects are not really modelled in DCS is a known issue, but using CM where you have to hit a target dead on to have any effect 4 out of 5 times (4x DU + 1x HEI) doesn't really help either. :o)

 

Btw, did you try this with 1.2.7 already? Supposedly (see change log) all explosive rounds should perform better now.

[shagrat]

:gun_sniper:Well, hopefully the 1.2.7 patch will fix this a bit. Damage from fragmentation is poorly modeled on all weapons at this time, especially troublesome with the rockets, as they are a primary area effect/anti infantry weapon IRL...

At this time most effectiv weapon seems to be Mk-82 / Mk-84 dumb bombs or GBU-38 JDAMs, because they have a good blast radius. Still less than you would expect against infantry in open terrain.

Though one can argue, that infantry would usually go prone or dug in when threatened by bombs or strafing runs, which give them much better chance of survival.

 

If you want to, I recommend going for the 1.2.7 OpenBeta, live with some of the current bugs and try HEI against infantry...

 

EDIT: Semi-sniped by Flagrum :gun_sniper:

[sgtmike74]

I find a regular run of the mil iron bomb will level infantry. You only need to hit near them to get the kill.

[Flagrum]

EDIT: Semi-sniped by Flagrum :gun_sniper:

:music_whistling:

 

One other thought just came to my mind. Fragmentation effect, blast radius, area effect weapon ... all nice and good. But usually when we encounter infantry, they are spreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead very wide. I think, this is due to the restrictions in the mission editor - it is just a pain in the a** to place every single man in the field by hand to resemble something like it would be in RL. What I mean is, a platoon is spread over half a mile with default settings. When they march on a street, there is still only every 20 yard one man. I don't know, I think, some "clustering" would be more appropriate if for example a platoon is dug in in some tree line. I.e. "fire teams", etc.

 

I mean, if I fire a 2 rocket salvo to engange infantry, I would expect casualities in an area of, dunno, 5-10 m diameter. Yes, in DCS even that is perhaps not possible, but how many troops are there usually within that radius? One. At best. So, defacto we are usually dealing with 30 single targets instead of an area target of one platoon ...

Edited January 2, 2014 by Flagrum

[shagrat]

(...)when we encounter infantry, they are spreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead very wide. I think, this is due to the restrictions in the mission editor -(...) to resemble something like it would be in RL. (...) When they march on a street, there is still only every 20 yard one man. I don't know, I think, some "clustering" would be more appropriate if for example a platoon is dug in in some tree line. I.e. "fire teams", etc.

On the contrary!!! It is pretty realistic! Infantry should(!) spread and display a large profile (believe me that was what we were training every soldier in the german army all the time).

That goes against the "group instinct", crowding together does provide an opportunity for just one hand grenade to decimate a platoon severely, so you spread, 8-15m is a good number in open terrain. The golden rule is visual contact, to every man near you so you can use battle signs to coordinate.

Dug in fire teams is different of course, depending on weapons arcs, equipment and terrain, still you would like a platoon, not to crowd conveniently in one hole to get bombed :D

 

What I'm missing is AI behavior for Infantry to be more realistic (go prone when under fire,covering fire, changing formation on road or open terrain)...

 

A platoon or group will walk a road in a zig-zag formation with 5-8m spread diagonally placing the road in the middle, which gives good firing arcs and the oppurtunity to take cover in terrain near the road without crossing it, etc.

 

Looks something like this on a road (HHHH): L=Platoon lead, M=Heavy squad weapon usually MG, Lead and MG may change as necessary.

 

.x....x....x....M

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

....M....x....x....L

 

On open terrain it will be like this, with 10-15m spacing diagonally:

 

....x

.

x

.

....M

.

x

.

....L

.

x

.

....x

.

M

 

The DCS World reallity is more like this, either way:

 

x M x x x x M L

Edited January 2, 2014 by shagrat

[Cibit]

One of my least favourite enemies to kill with the Hog are infantry - partly because they're near impossible to see even with the TGP if you're a long way off, and partly because I struggle to find a suitable weapon.

 

Usually I designate each part of my payload to threats that I know are in the mission, so for example I'll save my mavs for short/mid range SAMs or AAA which I'd have to engage from a long way off, or save CBU 97's/105's for a cluster of armour. As a result of this planning, I am always hesitant to use anything other than the gun on infantry from fear of wasting my better ordanance, but I always find the gun to be a bit disappointing also. It seems (though I might be wrong) that the explosive radius of the rounds are a bit badly modelled? I don't usually switch over the HEI, but even on CM where there are still explosive rounds hitting the floor it seems I almost have to directly hit each person individually to get the kill.

 

Should I always be using HEI for engaging infantry? If not, anyone got a little tip for a better weapon to use against them without using the bigger stuff needed for other threats in the mission?

 

Call up the hueys and their 1337boi door gunners. They can run but they'll just die tired:smilewink:

[Flagrum]

On the contrary!!! It is pretty realistic! Infantry should(!) spread and display a large profile (believe me that was what we were training every soldier in the german army all the time).

Hrm, well, yeah. Of course infantry must not stick together in one spot. Dunno, but in DCS it "feels" a bit weired/overdone somehow... (but can't really argue here as I haven't served ... ;o)

 

Oh well, I guess, in future I will have to tie a CBU 87 to my helos then :D

[shagrat]

:doh:Yeah! CBU-87 should have devastating effects on infantry in the open... :D

 

In the 1.2.7 openbeta, though, the Huey's co Pilot / door gunner AI is veeery effective against infantry, if it spots and engages them.

I couldn't find out how they spot them, yet. Sometimes they engage troops from a mile away, sometimes you get stitched with 7.62 from 600ft and they ignore it... :doh:

[JMasterFlash]

CBU-87 is the best weapon I've found. Just go into the INV menu and re-add the 87 with a low height of function setting and that will bring the grouping tighter with the cluster munitions and has been VERY effective for me.

 

As far as finding them, I would think that IRL that would be the job for JTAC. Where they would call you in to strike an enemy position rather than call out coordinates for individual men.

Edited January 2, 2014 by JMasterFlash

[GC1993]

I'm not running the 1.2.7 beta (just cba to have two completely different sets of files running, sorry). I'll switch to HEI though and see if it makes a difference. Shagrat & Jmasterflash, I sometimes use the CBU-87 on about 700-900 HOF, and it does the trick nicely, but I rarely carry them. Rockets would be nice, but as someone above mentioned the shrapnel is poorly modelled. When they fix it though, I'll probably start carrying some M151's in ripple as default.

 

Reason I ask this whole thing anyway is that when you look at YouTube videos of Hog's strafing taliban or whatever, they open fire with the gun easily high enough to not spot individual moving people, yet the rounds still seem to do the trick and the ground around them gets pretty screwed up. Unless some strafes IRL are more for suppressive purposes & for shows of force rather than for deadly intentions who knows, just a train of thought.

[Evil.Bonsai]

:doh:Yeah! CBU-87 should have devastating effects on infantry in the open... :D

 

In the 1.2.7 openbeta, though, the Huey's co Pilot / door gunner AI is veeery effective against infantry, if it spots and engages them.

I couldn't find out how they spot them, yet. Sometimes they engage troops from a mile away, sometimes you get stitched with 7.62 from 600ft and they ignore it... :doh:

 

I can't seem to get the door gunners to do anything. Short mission made, and Huey's fly up to where they would attack, if they had miniguns, but with just the door guns, they stop and hover.

 

Edit: I'm thinking since it's AI (I don't have module), the side doors don't open and the gunners can't access their guns. Mini-guns and rockets are fine, but the M60s stay quiet.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Evil.Bonsai

[Cibit]

Are you running the open beta? Door gunners are deadly:)

[pyromaniac4002]

Unless things have changed significantly from my last infantry strafing run, I wouldn't say I find it particularly hard to get kills using CM in the GAU-8. The kill radius seemed quite appropriate to me.

 

Other than that, I'd say a good old triple ejector rack of Mk-82s is a pretty effective anti-infantry weapon. CBU-87/103 is fine, but unless something like the entire North Vietnamese Army is coming over a hill towards your guys, it's pretty outrageous overkill. And like JMasterFlash said, you'd need to reload it on your DSMS with a lower height of function to be effective for an infy group, which to me is kind of a pain in the ass. The Mk-82 gives you a good area of effect and with 3 bombs to a rack, you get 3 times the fun. :thumbup:

[GC1993]

Unless things have changed significantly from my last infantry strafing run, I wouldn't say I find it particularly hard to get kills using CM in the GAU-8. The kill radius seemed quite appropriate to me.

 

Other than that, I'd say a good old triple ejector rack of Mk-82s is a pretty effective anti-infantry weapon. CBU-87/103 is fine, but unless something like the entire North Vietnamese Army is coming over a hill towards your guys, it's pretty outrageous overkill. And like JMasterFlash said, you'd need to reload it on your DSMS with a lower height of function to be effective for an infy group, which to me is kind of a pain in the ass. The Mk-82 gives you a good area of effect and with 3 bombs to a rack, you get 3 times the fun. :thumbup:

 

Yeah dumb bombs are fun, just a bit hit and miss when there's wind & what not and can make you look stupid if you drop them too low (because you're trying to visually spot the infantry) and end up damaging yourself. I'll be interested to see if the HEI physical and visual effect goes back to how it was in the early DCS A10C days when 1.2.7 comes out.

[Pinefang]

I don't think you are wasting a munition by using a CBU-87 on a troop target. War isn't always about destroying armor. Remember our guys get penned down by troops as well as by the hard targets so anytime you can decimate a large group of infantry by using a bomb then I would use it.

[Angbor]

I was watching a video of an Apache providing support to some ground troops. When it ran out of cannon ammo, they ended up shooting a single person with a hellfire. When you're trying to protect your guys on the ground I guess it doesn't really matter the cost or how overkill it is.

 

With that in mind, my only consideration with what I drop is how close friendlies are. I prefer using CBU-87s on infrantry, followed by other bombs (I'll use jdams or LGBs if that's what on my wings but dumb bombs are preferred here), followed by the gun. I would use rockets if I wasn't so terrible at them instead of or with the gun in the same run.

[Madog]

Hey,

i think what is missing, is a certain kind of success without a kill. I think, A-10s on CAS irl just usually get some kind of order like "bomb here" or "strave that". without killing everyone on the ground it certainly has some kind of effect, may it be physiological or psychological.

In DCS the only way to achive the games goals is by actually killing units, of course the mission maker could use some kind of "bomb in area" trigger to simulate contidions more similar to real world conditions, but i have yet to see this and the build-in JTAC certainly only cares for kills.

This is, imo, more of a gameplay issue than a question of proper simulation, and the DCS gameplay is all about "kill this, destroy that" not about simulation the pilots experience.

[PFunk1606688187]

I was watching a video of an Apache providing support to some ground troops. When it ran out of cannon ammo, they ended up shooting a single person with a hellfire. When you're trying to protect your guys on the ground I guess it doesn't really matter the cost or how overkill it is.

 

As I understand it that was probably an old stock Hellfire that's just surplus and doesn't represent state of the art technology. In many ways I think they want to find ways to use them up. Its just like all those obsolescent TOWs that are left over from the 80s.

[shagrat]

Hey,

i think what is missing, is a certain kind of success without a kill. I think, A-10s on CAS irl just usually get some kind of order like "bomb here" or "strave that". without killing everyone on the ground it certainly has some kind of effect, may it be physiological or psychological.

In DCS the only way to achive the games goals is by actually killing units, of course the mission maker could use some kind of "bomb in area" trigger to simulate contidions more similar to real world conditions, but i have yet to see this and the build-in JTAC certainly only cares for kills.

This is, imo, more of a gameplay issue than a question of proper simulation, and the DCS gameplay is all about "kill this, destroy that" not about simulation the pilots experience.

 

It would help a lot if mission designers won't use GROUP DEAD triggers as default!

When 30-40% of your buddies are killed in a strafing run, you don't fight back as hard as before, morale is likely to break and you take cover!

 

There is something like "GROUP <infantry1> ALIVE LESS THAN <70%> - AI PUSH TASK <set ROE to hold fire for infantry1>

 

You may even combine it with a FLAG and a second trigger TIME SINCE FLAG x SEC - AI PUSH TASK <set ROE to fire at will for infantry1 again>

 

This simulates morale break and recovery quite nicely!

 

Below 30% survivng troops I would consider fighting capability more or less broken, so if they are not fanatics or stupid they will retreat to fight another day! :smilewink:

[Flagrum]

You may even combine it with a FLAG and a second trigger TIME SINCE FLAG x SEC - AI PUSH TASK <set ROE to fire at will for infantry1 again>

 

This simulates morale break and recovery quite nicely!

Mbot wrote a nice script to emulate "supression": http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=107635

[Evil.Bonsai]

Are you running the open beta? Door gunners are deadly:)

 

Yeah, tried it in 127. Unless I'm missing something, the AI huey door gunners don't work (AI hueys as I don't have the module). They fly to what looks like an attack point then hover. Side doors remain closed, the M60 door guns remain pointed down with gunners inside the doors. I'm guess with the module, a pilot can open/close the doors, allowing the door gunners to access their weapons. I just don't see how to do this with AI Hueys.

[Cibit]

Right sorry. I was under the impression they where your door gunners.

You need to get the huey, its like piloting an AC130 gunship. Now how to fit a 155mm howitzer in the cargo bay:P

[GC1993]

Getting a bit off topic here gents...

[Cibit]

Sorry my bad. Apologies to OP