DCS World or Helicopter World

[JayPee]

DCS World or Helicopter World

 

Buzzzzz, Judges? >>.. I'm Sorry you have no proof to validate you're statement.

 

They havent started it?, yeah, so that shiney F/A-18C External Model with more animations than even the A-10C External just fabricated itself?

 

 

As funny as your comment is, feel free to share your knowledge should you know more than meets the eye...

Edited January 9, 2014 by JayPee

[Silver_Dragon]

As funny as your comment might be, feel free to share your knowledge should you know more than meets the eye...

 

You know the NDA agreement?

[JayPee]

You want a kick up the Hind you mean .

 

 

That's basically another Su-25. Only slightly slower and less agile.

[JayPee]

DCS World or Helicopter World

 

You know the NDA agreement?

 

 

You know a bitching crowd, partly due to lack of insight into current projects/development?

Edited January 9, 2014 by JayPee

[NineLine]

You know a bitching crowd, partly due to lack of insight into current projects/development? If not, please re-read this thread and a dozen others...

 

Everyone was told when you can expect new info, or when you should, at the earliest to expect new info, that said its a glass half full glass half empty discussion right now, why? Because we dont know where the F/A-18 is in development, we see the model, we see what the model has built into it, we assume everything else.

 

Tunnel vision people, I want X, why are they working on Y, well Y? Because its their company, its their product and the development plan decided on is best suited for future development of the sim. It might not be what I want now, or you want now, but you have to trust that they are pointing the sims future in the best possible direction.

 

You may not understand it, you may not like it, but it is what it is. I trust from what they have given us so far, they are doing what they need to to give us equal or greater products going forward. If you dont think they understand how big the F/A-18C will be for them, then you dont really understand ED, and if you dont understand why they are working on EDGE, 3rd Party integration, etc.... then you really dont understand what ED is trying to build.

[howie87]

The thing is, I'm honestly not sure how big the F/A-18C will be for ED...

 

The way everyone talks, hardcore simmers are a dying breed. All I keep hearing is how there's no money to be had in it and how FC3 is the new cash cow in town.

 

It's difficult not to be frustrated when a product that was announced in March last year and that a huge group of people are excited for, is the only thing that we hear absolutely nothing about.

 

The only news there has been on DCS: F/A-18C is that there is no news and not to expect any.

[EtherealN]

As funny as your comment is, feel free to share your knowledge should you know more than meets the eye...

 

Quick set of hints:

 

Did you know that most game development projects aren't even admitted to being in existence for the first 2-3 years of their development?

 

Did you think BST went from nothing at UH-1 release to flyable Mi-8 THAT fast? There was NOTHING made on the Mi-8 until it was announced?

 

Do NOT expect statements or info for _at least_ the first half of a game project's development cycle. For most, what you'll get until it is almost done is "yeah, we're doing something". (One example that is ongoing: Blizzard has been working on a new MMORPG for some 5-6 years minimum. All we know is that yeah, they've been doing that. And even that simple fact is a relatively recent "admission". :P Many other devs will "admit" to working on "something" through having a "Game X" or similar in their list of projects.)

 

However, when you state as fact that ED hasn't even "started"... You will be called on that. Because there you are advertising that you yourself have exclusive knowledge. ;)

[JayPee]

I fully understand and agree with all 3 of you.

 

HOWEVER, ED sure isn't blind either. If, as a company, you notice your market is becoming increasingly impatient andas a result perhaps even losing trust, how big an effort would it be to give them some tangible updates on a reasonably frequent base? All we're basically getting right now is: don't expect anything in the near future. Well, not put so bluntly but still. Also look at this topic. I admit it includes some rant yet officials don't even remotely feel the need to somehow respond, either in a thread like this or via a news update.

 

Lotsa fanboys around are saying we should show some empathy towards ED for the difficulties they face. Tell you this, I for one am definitely not feeling any empathy from ED towards its customers right now.

 

Hopefully ventilating my opinion once in a while is tolerated and not punished by half a flame war.

[NineLine]

I for one am definitely not feeling any empathy from ED towards its customers right now.

 

Based on what actions?

[GGTharos]

ED is continuously developing their codebase.

 

Here's what's going on in people's minds, in my opinion:

 

People were once used to getting a new game every 2-3 years from some company.

People now get constant updates from various companies which is the basic develop-test-release updates model, and they get them much more frequently than the way it used to be. They also didn't really have all these forums to participate in.

 

As a result people are spoiled and want to see things extra fast.

 

Right now ED is expanding DCSW with every line of code, they are fixing bugs, and they've implemented the Open Beta to increase the product quality.

 

 

Officials at ED have their jobs to do, and since it's a lean operation there's really no time to sit around, read every thread and respond to every question, concern, or address every rant out there.

Wags has responded to popular questions before, but it seems that what you're looking for is someone to be sitting around to answer questions 24/7 and give 'official' answers and updates to everything.

 

Such things are provided, and they are provided on a reasonably frequent basis.

 

 

I fully understand and agree with all 3 of you.

 

HOWEVER, ED sure isn't blind either. If, as a company, you notice your market is becoming increasingly impatient andas a result perhaps even losing trust, how big an effort would it be to give them some tangible updates on a reasonably frequent base? All we're basically getting right now is: don't expect anything in the near future. Well, not put so bluntly but still. Also look at this topic. I admit it includes some rant yet officials don't even remotely feel the need to somehow respond, either in a thread like this or via a news update.

 

Lotsa fanboys around are saying we should show some empathy towards ED for the difficulties they face. Tell you this, I for one am definitely not feeling any empathy from ED towards its customers right now.

 

Hopefully ventilating my opinion once in a while is tolerated and not punished by half a flame war.

[EtherealN]

Lotsa fanboys around are saying we should show some empathy towards ED for the difficulties they face. Tell you this, I for one am definitely not feeling any empathy from ED towards its customers right now.

 

Actually, "fanboys" asked you to back up the claim that ED hasn't even started on the 18C.

 

I know this to factually incorrect, but unfortunately I can't give details (NDA etc). For now, you can refer to previous statements by Matt that development has started. My point is that having a long time go from something being "admitted" to being in existance to being shown parts of it is, unless you are working for a contracted publisher on the project, completely standard. These things take time, and there is a LOT of stuff that needs to be done that doesn't necessarily show themselves in nice WIP screenshots and such. In actual fact, MOST of the work for something like the 18C is stuff that is under the hood*. And other parts are things you could perhaps see if you knew what to look for since some aspects might require updates to DCS World itself, meaning that you might actually see parts of the development already in action - you just don't know (and neither do I, to be clear, I don't even have to cite NDA there) that they were spawned as a requirement for the 18C.

 

Example I could take would be Combined Arms. Looks like it's just a UI on top of what's already there, right? No, actually, in order to even be possible, the entire netcode had to be overhauled...

 

Basic point: if you state as fact that ED hasn't even started on the 18C, yes, back that up. Not being shown does not mean nothing has happened. That's what I'm getting at.

 

*I'll venture for this example: how do you want ED to show samples of work in engine simulation, hydraulics, electronics etcetera? Until it's all done, all you'd at best get to see is graphs of in-vitro runs of the models during their various stages of development before they even end up in an actual DCS module. And for a lot of reasons, including protecting against industrial espionage and guarding against the competition, that's just not fit for public dissemination.

Edited January 9, 2014 by EtherealN

[BRooDJeRo]

I've got patience, i'm not dying anytime soon either. Take your time and there's also nothing wrong with sometimes ignoring structural ney-saying-trends.

[Roadrunner]

if i may have an opinion on all that:

 

1:

ED is building/improving THE sandbox in that we will play for the next 10 years or even more. the system is the only way in my opinion, as developing a new enginge every time etc. is just to timeconsuming.

 

2:

pistonengine, helicopter, jets, aircrafts from the last 100 years of aviation.

GREAT, give me more of it!

one sandbox with ALL kind of aircrafts to fly in, only one game installed.

 

if you dont like one aircraft or timeframe, dont use it, dont put it in a mission!

win situation for all, everything there, you descide what to use!

 

3:

ED is in a process of reconstructing al lot of this sandbox, new engine, new map, new possibilitys (i.e. multicrewed ac's) making a better mod interface to help 3rd parties and god knows what else, that takes time, especialy as it needs to be done GOOD so it works out in the long run.

 

even when EDGE is there and some features are added, ED has to keep working on the sandbox, that always binds resources and slows down other parts, but hell, it brings us more stuff over time.

 

4:

eventualy there will be a hornet, but it will take time, fair enough, with all those AC expected to be released this year we have a total of 24 flyable airframes, should give us enough birds to learn to master while waiting for modern fastmover!

(yes, i REALY cant wait to see the hornet or a falcon, believe me, at least the hornet is in some state of development.)

 

5:

the only thing that makes me think is the plan to make a seperate install for DCS:1944, as this would break the sandbox into 2 parts that might develop into to diffrent systems, but hey, i dont know what the ideas are behind it, or if it is a fix decision already.

 

well, those are a part of my thoughts, noone has to like them, but maybe its better to be happy with what you have then mourning what you would like to have, there is always room for improvment, but as you cannot change stuff, life with what you have, a nice GROWING sandbox!

 

regards,

RR

[Jimbolya]

All I have to say is Jane's Fighters Anthology...

 

To me this is where this platform is going and I love that idea.

[SkateZilla]

All I have to say is Jane's Fighters Anthology...

 

To me this is where this platform is going and I love that idea.

 

lol, I still have the discs for that..

[Jimbolya]

Ha - completely classic game -

 

Want to fly a B-52 go right ahead...

Want to fly A-6 during Nam - go right ahead...

F-15s over Iraq...sure we have that too =)

 

Super cool game...a bit too VGA for today's standards, but I bet if I loaded it up I'd still have fun playing it lol.

[SkateZilla]

if i may have an opinion on all that:

 

1:

ED is building/improving THE sandbox in that we will play for the next 10 years or even more. the system is the only way in my opinion, as developing a new enginge every time etc. is just to timeconsuming.

 

2:

pistonengine, helicopter, jets, aircrafts from the last 100 years of aviation.

GREAT, give me more of it!

one sandbox with ALL kind of aircrafts to fly in, only one game installed.

 

if you dont like one aircraft or timeframe, dont use it, dont put it in a mission!

win situation for all, everything there, you descide what to use!

 

3:

ED is in a process of reconstructing al lot of this sandbox, new engine, new map, new possibilitys (i.e. multicrewed ac's) making a better mod interface to help 3rd parties and god knows what else, that takes time, especialy as it needs to be done GOOD so it works out in the long run.

 

even when EDGE is there and some features are added, ED has to keep working on the sandbox, that always binds resources and slows down other parts, but hell, it brings us more stuff over time.

 

4:

eventualy there will be a hornet, but it will take time, fair enough, with all those AC expected to be released this year we have a total of 24 flyable airframes, should give us enough birds to learn to master while waiting for modern fastmover!

(yes, i REALY cant wait to see the hornet or a falcon, believe me, at least the hornet is in some state of development.)

 

5:

the only thing that makes me think is the plan to make a seperate install for DCS:1944, as this would break the sandbox into 2 parts that might develop into to diffrent systems, but hey, i dont know what the ideas are behind it, or if it is a fix decision already.

 

well, those are a part of my thoughts, noone has to like them, but maybe its better to be happy with what you have then mourning what you would like to have, there is always room for improvment, but as you cannot change stuff, life with what you have, a nice GROWING sandbox!

 

regards,

RR

 

 

I dont wanna re-post the whole story and a bunch of old quotes, as I'm on a tablet so I'llmake it short.

 

The Engine has Evolved over the past 10 years,

Upgrades in Object Models and Container Formats, Upgrades in Shaders, Upgrades in Networking, With Image Rendering Upgrades on the Way etc.

 

TFCSE:

The Fighter Collection Simulation Engine.

 

TBS/LoMac : TFCSE 1.0

Flaming Cliffs 2 : TFCSE 1.02 (Introduces DCS Battlefield Env., Fixed Wing AFM (Su-25T), Integrates with BS1 in MP)

DCS : BS1 : TFCSE 1.02 (Introduces High Fidelity Rotary Wing Aircraft w/ AFM)

DCS : A-10C : TFCSE 1.1.1.x (Introduces High Fidelity Fixed Wing Aircraft w/ AFM)

DCS : BS2 : TFCSE 1.1.1.x (Brings BS1 Up to 1.1.1.x Standards, Integrates with DCS:A-10C in MP)

DCSW : P-51D : TFCSE 1.1.2.x (Introduces Prop AFM)

DCSW : CA : TFCSE 1.2.0 (Introduces Ability to Command and Take Control of Ground Units and JTAC Roles, Etc)

DCSW : DCSW Stability/Features Update : TFCSE 1.2.1+

DCSW : FC3 : TFCSE 1.2.2 (Introduces Aircraft From LockOn into the DCSW Environment with Improvements)

DCSW : Stability / Features Update : TFCSE 1.2.3

DCSW : UH-1H: TFSE 1.2.4 (Introduces High Fidelity Rotary Wing Aircraft with AFM and Mutliple Player Positions)

DCSW : SU-25A/A-10A, Stability / Features Update : TFCSE 1.2.5 (Introduces Individual FC Fidelity Fixed Wing Aircraft)

DCSW : MI-8MTV2 : TFCSE 1.2.6

DCSW : Open Beta 1.2.7, Stability / Features Update : TFCSE 1.2.7

 

End Eventually

DCSW : EDGE Image Renderer (Introduces DirectX11.x)

DCSW : DCS: F-15C/SU-27 AFM (Introduces The First Fixed Wing Super Sonic AFMs)

DCSW : DCS: F-18C (Introduces DCS Fidelity Fixed Wing Aircraft with Super Sonic AFM, Radar etc)

 

DCSW : DCSWWII (Adds Completely WWII Specific Environment, Vehicles, Weapons, etc).

 

 

 

 

From there, we can only wish/guess at what's being done to the core engine, but it will definately continue to evolve.

Edited January 9, 2014 by SkateZilla

[Davis0079]

all the things I've asked for except one has been confirmed so far...

 

1. a better engine...we are getting it...EDGE

 

2. an American attack helo.....here comes the cobra (I can shoot down a blackshark in this...dare me)

 

3. a multi role fighter...Bang..the F-18...we have known about this for a while now...

 

4. Ground unit control.....Combined Arms...which also has an upgrade coming one day

 

5. I want it all NOW!!!!!

 

 

 

I guess in the overall scheme of things, 4 out of 5 aint bad....and the one goal they didnt reach isnt very realistic either....when I get mad about that one, I go play clod(TF4) or arma3....why...because realistically this is the only thing I can do...

 

and you know what....one day I will look up....and #5 on my list will have a check mark next to it...till then...FLAME WARS 2014...here we go...(I wish my warning lvl on these forums got reset every year...like my taxes...)

[JayPee]

I'll respond tomorrow as I'm on my phone right now though I'd like to point out I did not say 18C production hasn't started. That must have been somebody else.

 

My point was lack of insight in development/updates.

[EtherealN]

though I'd like to point out I did not say 18C production hasn't started. That must have been somebody else.

 

Ooops, you are right.

You responded to a response to the guy that did make that statement, and I got confused. Please accept my apologies.

[Dr. Yes]

The thing is, I'm honestly not sure how big the F/A-18C will be for ED...

 

The way everyone talks, hardcore simmers are a dying breed. All I keep hearing is how there's no money to be had in it and how FC3 is the new cash cow in town.

 

This. Yes. We are a dying breed. Most young kids these days are not into flight sims. They're into FPS with aircraft. Battlefield. Arma. They will soon wipe out even our little niche.

 

If you want to survive, we need better looking maps and landscapes with the ability for human controlled ground forces. Basically Arma. This will bring in more players and thus more money. Arma's dying anyway. They've pissed off their community over and over, and now I think Arma 3's bugs and horribleness in general is the final straw for BI. Not only that, BI doesn't seem to want to deal with Arma anymore. I think it is going to be the last Arma. They're all into DayZ and Wasteland now.

 

So here is EDs chance to gain all the Arma players as customers. Make a new Arma ( basically, just put in a much better terrain, playable infantry, and driveable vehicles ). Yeah, our map is a LOT bigger, but this is what the new gen want, and will let us old guys keep our precious flight sims. We might even be able to convert a few kids over to learning to fly. ESPECIALLY AFTER WE BLOW THE SHIT OUT OF THEM ON THE GROUND! :music_whistling::devil:

Edited January 9, 2014 by Dr. Yes

[Dr. Yes]

ED is building/improving THE sandbox in that we will play for the next 10 years or even more.

 

Eh, no. Unless this new engine has multi-core spanning, its just a crutch good for a year or two at best. In 10 years, we'll have 60 core CPU's. No one will tolerate an engine that can run on only one. We can barely tolerate it now.

[SkateZilla]

Eh, no. Unless this new engine has multi-core spanning, its just a crutch good for a year or two at best. In 10 years, we'll have 60 core CPU's. No one will tolerate an engine that can run on only one. We can barely tolerate it now.

 

 

I can count on one hand how many Full Blown High Fidelity Flight Sims use more than 1 Thread.

 

 

If you think you can code it, by all means, code it, then write the program code to sync everything without having a bunch of bugs and thread desync problems... Because that's exactly what would have to be done in simple terms, im 100% certain it's significantly more complicated than that.

 

DirectX 11 isnt a Crutch,

If you knew anything about programming and DX9 vs DX11, you wouldn't be standing there saying that.

Edited January 9, 2014 by SkateZilla

[Dr. Yes]

Oh, I know some programming. And yeah, I know how hard it will be make an engine that can use multiple cores. You'll basically have to start over. But there have been multicore using engines made now ( Outerra, for one. ). And there is a multicore - scaling language called Parasail being developed now. When the compiler compiles the language, it automatically divides up functions, etc. into multiple threads going to multiple cores. In the near future, all the new engines will be multi-core. Anything that isn't will be considered a dinosaur.

 

And personally, when I see one of my cores about ready to explode, and the rest just sitting there, it makes me want to scream.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Dr. Yes

[camsr]

Some types of math are not parallel processing capable. MATH, not games or developers, MATH. Anything that has to be calculated, after something else is calculated, is not parallel.