Laser guided weapons on Su-25 - are they any use?

[Gloom Demon]

Are laser guided weapons any use with the Su-25? Every time I try to use them I have to get really close to the target in order to hit it. Otherwise I regularly miss. Now I understand, that in real life they might be useful for striking hardened shelters or other "difficult" targets, but is there a target in DCSW which cannot be taken out just as painlessly with unguided rockets? Or is it me being bad with my LG weapons? ;-)

[TurboHog]

With the Kh-25ML I can hit a humvee most of the times from max distance (that is: Launching when the light for launch authorization turns on)

 

Some tips:

 

• Zoom in on your hud.
  
• Don't lower the ASP-17 glass
  
• Keep the reticle in boresight position (!) Failing to do so will make your missile fall short in most of the cases (Haven't figured out if this is a bug or realism)
  

The boresight thing is something I only recently discovered. I always lowered my ASP-17 and the missile always fell short. Now I keep it raised, I lock the target and try to keep it in the original position by actively controlling the airplane. There is a nice (imaginairy) reference line that you can use to keep the reticle in the right position. I'm very bad at describing it. The sort of 'structure/bracket' that holds your hud in place. Draw a line between their top and keep your reticle on or around that line. Now the only thing you have to do is make the target 'dissapear behind the dot'

 

Will make track when I have time.

[pepin1234]

Right now the main laser missile habe been modify by ED, The Kh-25ML is the larger and powerful Missiles for anti-armor used by Su-25 and this missile have become into a strange very short range of 7km with a strange balistic trayectory falling down abruptly when reach less than 1000 km/h.

 

The Kh-25ML right now have shorter range than the Su-25T Vikhr Missiles. amazing new AFM!!! we waiting the last result of this...

 

So everytime you attack a possition with a Chaparral IR Air defence you will die trying, Because the very weak range of the main laser missile have become shorter than the MIM-72G ( an ground-air modification of the Aim-9 )

 

The MIM-72G have a 12kg warhead and when this missile hit you seem to have a amazing and unrealistic destruction capability with more than 1000 km/h at 6 km range.

 

Use the Kh-29L ,seem to be better Option and the only choise alive at the Moment for more than 7 km launch.

[TurboHog]

I'm talking about the non-AFM Kh-25ML in DCSW 1.2.6 in my post btw. That is usefull info judging by pepin's post.

[Vedexent]

Laser guided weapons on the Su-25 are tricky - sometimes I have definitely "off days" with Karens - but they're definitely useful.

 

It does help if you have the graphics set high enough that the aiming cross on the gun-sight is semitransparent; then you can put it right over the little black dot; don't maneuver much, and - regardless of how the aiming reticule seems to shift off the black dot - don't move the targeting laser while the missile is in flight. Let the lasing system track on its own.

[Vedexent]

• Keep the reticle in boresight position (!) Failing to do so will make your missile fall short in most of the cases (Haven't figured out if this is a bug or realism)
  

 

Interesting! This might explain those odd times when I suddenly can't hit with the Karen to save my life, and then suddenly I can again.

[Frostie]

Interesting! This might explain those odd times when I suddenly can't hit with the Karen to save my life, and then suddenly I can again.

I've highlighted this problem here.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=119046

 

The further away from the centre of the HUD the pipper accuracy decreases.

[TurboHog]

Here is a track. Use DCSW V1.2.6. I try to keep the reticle around its default position as a workaround for the possible bug that Frostie reported.

 

I hit 3/4 Avenger SAMS. Had some difficulty spotting the third one against the background. 3/4 to 4/5 is my usual kill ratio for humvee-sized targets at max distance. Less reliable than a maverick in DCS, but still very effective.

 

Another advice: Attack the target from an angle such that the surface you can hit is at its largest.

Kh-25ML kills.trk

[Gloom Demon]

I also seem to have problems keeping the aircraft aligned - when I fire the missile the plane starts rolling and I have to trim it and do the fine tuning of the laser to aim it right which can be difficult.

[TurboHog]

I also seem to have problems keeping the aircraft aligned - when I fire the missile the plane starts rolling and I have to trim it and do the fine tuning of the laser to aim it right which can be difficult.

 

Practise... a lot of it.

[LeVince]

I read on the Su-25 manual that Kh-25ML and Kh-29L can be guided from the ground by "ground-based laser target designators" Page25

 

In this case the accuracy is beter

Edited January 18, 2014 by LeVince

[Serp Supreme]

I also seem to have problems keeping the aircraft aligned - when I fire the missile the plane starts rolling and I have to trim it and do the fine tuning of the laser to aim it right which can be difficult.

 

It rolls because the missile leaving the plane is a big change to your aerodynamics. Less weight, less drag, but the weight distribution is now pretty asymmetrical. Not a major issue and firing off another missile should even out the distribution but I still usually prefer to trim it out after I fire one.

[tflash]

I still hit what I need to hit with the Kh-25ML, but indeed the AFM essentially porked it: it has become a kind of cruise missile, falling out of the sky like a brick and then lethargically flying towards the target through thick air. Range has dwindled.

 

For me it still works but I am less than enthousiastic.

[pepin1234]

The Kh-25ML have more than 15 km range. The only Thing that limiting the effective range is the head seeker. The Mayor capability of every targeting sensor make the effective range.

 

The Su-25 have a laser sensor of 5 km, but we have a big Problem with the new AFM for this Missile. This Missile lose much Speed and the burn rocket time is ridiculous. Also why this Missile falling down with the nose up, even when he is still with 1000 km/h??

 

So right now we can not take Advantage of the enough range to do an override because this Missile is falling down when we get into the 5 km sensor capability. Also the Kh-25ML have an Autopilot that remain the Missile with the right direction of our pitch at the Launch Moment.

 

The Missile work, but it is forcing the Su-25 Pilots to do the Launch into the very danger Zone of the IR air-defences...

Edited January 19, 2014 by pepin1234

[Zayets]

So what it has 15 km range? It won't change anything if it had 95 km as long as we don't have ground lasing units (like JTAC). You can't VISUALY positively identify a target from more than 5 km (and I'm very generous here with the numbers). Unless you know that particular vehicle is an enemy vehicle you'd shoot blindly. Laser range is somewhere around 5 km so override weapon and fire from 7-8 km (roughly). But again, if you (or someone else) didn't identify the target as hostile you are taking a gamble. Not like it matters, is just a game but I doubt in real life they would attack ground to air units with the SU-25 from max envelope.

[Frostie]

So what it has 15 km range? It won't change anything if it had 95 km as long as we don't have ground lasing units (like JTAC). You can't VISUALY positively identify a target from more than 5 km (and I'm very generous here with the numbers). Unless you know that particular vehicle is an enemy vehicle you'd shoot blindly. Laser range is somewhere around 5 km so override weapon and fire from 7-8 km (roughly). But again, if you (or someone else) didn't identify the target as hostile you are taking a gamble. Not like it matters, is just a game but I doubt in real life they would attack ground to air units with the SU-25 from max envelope.

 

That is a problem for a lot of ground attack aircraft that is why the pilots are given briefings and killboxes.

[pepin1234]

Nobody is talking about JTAC. When you attack an enemy Group Position first you should care about the Air defences. My advice is that the Su-25 should not attack alone, is better in pair. While one unit is inbound the other should alert about enemy airdefences.

 

I know is difficult, cuz when the Editor set the IR air-defences with excelent Level, then the IR unit calculate much better the Response and Moment to shot you.

 

About the Kh-25ML is very important the Missile Speed. When we get LA at 7 km, the ML should get the laser guided stage with more than 1000 km/h, other wise you get the 5 km targeting sensor range with this misile falling like a potato and we continue guiding and approaching to the Targets. So we get a big risk because this.

 

Please take the 1.2.6 and use the Kh-25ML with Su-25T. Do an override at 15 km and you will see the Kh-25Ml have enough power to reach the target. After that fly the same Mission with the 1.2.7 openbeta Version and you will see that even the LA range is changed to 7 Km for the Su-25T too.

 

my question. Why the Kh-25ML been the large and powerful laser Missile have been changed into low Speed, and short LA range?? only 7 km!!

Edited January 20, 2014 by pepin1234

[Zayets]

I thought we were speaking about this combo only : SU-25 + Kh-25ML. All is visual in this case so anything beyond 5km (if you're able to spot the enemy, that is) become a job for other units (like artillery or high alt bombers). If you close in under 5km forget the laser guided missiles (this is what I do anyway). Load unguided rockets, have a wingman to alert you for any air defences and have a go from 1km at them. Point is that you cover 5 km in like what? 30 seconds at 600 kmph? The AA is having max two shots at you and the first one is usually avoided by popping up flares. If you don't stay at the edge of the sensor envelope with the SU25 (which is 5 km) then you will most probably die because once inside the 3-4 km AA engagement area you will be forced to hold the piper above your target. He's firing FnF, you have to stay locked on him. He's having the edge.

[pepin1234]

I thought we were speaking about this combo only : SU-25 + Kh-25ML. All is visual in this case so anything beyond 5km (if you're able to spot the enemy, that is) become a job for other units (like artillery or high alt bombers). If you close in under 5km forget the laser guided missiles (this is what I do anyway). Load unguided rockets, have a wingman to alert you for any air defences and have a go from 1km at them. Point is that you cover 5 km in like what? 30 seconds at 600 kmph? The AA is having max two shots at you and the first one is usually avoided by popping up flares. If you don't stay at the edge of the sensor envelope with the SU25 (which is 5 km) then you will most probably die because once inside the 3-4 km AA engagement area you will be forced to hold the piper above your target. He's firing FnF, you have to stay locked on him. He's having the edge.

 

Yes but is not so easy. For example, yesterday I have attack some tanks Position with one linebacker. I knew where is it and I have Launch a 25ML, Unfortunatly was a miss 3 or 4 meter Forward. When I turn back thinking that was killed the A-G, suddenly I was hit by the linebacker.

 

Now lets guess some CA guy take the control of the Linebacker. For sure this linebacker controled by a human, can not shot me back while I run cuz he is blind some seconds by the low visibility generated by the ML Impact.

 

The unguide weapons are fun but not good warranty when you miss. We must wait till the next graphic engine to scape behind the trees.:smilewink:

[Zayets]

Well, then you'd have to look for the smoke column. That is valuable information.

Graphic engine where you can actually use trees, clouds and statics to hide is going to be a Ka-50 bonanza.

[theJournier]

Is having a snowball fight with pitcher Randy Jackson a bad idea...

 

I find guided missiles very useful, but I'm a terrible CAS... I wouldprobably be better as a dogfighter or aggressor (good I making other pilots nervous but not actually landing any shots).

 

 

But for one thing I usually fire missles at 1-2 km away, when AA's just start shooting (usually 1 or 2 will be in my direction and the rest will be shot at the missile).

 

I usually start by making sure I'm perfectly trim (I.e. plan is exponentially jerking up, or side to one side or the other.). Turn on lazer and adjust to where it's relatively close, and hit enter (fire then correct reticle or if I have still have good distance make minor corrections then fire)... just be sure that as you get closer, the sight is right on target, sometimes it can be just past or just under and makes you miss.

 

My favorite weapons are guided... I've had more kills with them and my cannons. I've had a few with cluster bombs, but I'm really terrible with rockets... I'll waste all my ammo and bet lucky if I do more just *hit* the target.

[VTJS17_Fire]

I had the same problem, that the range is very short. Also, I noticed, that I have to aim a little bit above the target (especially ships) to hit them.

 

S7ct5-mQhoA

 

 

regards,

Fire