Sandman1330

I disagree that the over G damage is cumulative in DCS, I’ve seen no evidence that it is without some kind of other external battle damage. I would love to see what a real F15 would look like after a typical DCS dogfight. It would probably make it back home, but it certainly wouldn’t fly right. I’m no proponent of an unrealistic wing break mechanic either. Other things break first - panels pop and increase or create asymmetric drag, engine mounts break, non-solid state avionics, radars, control surfaces, etc. More severely the rigging and trim is going to be thrown out by even very minor bending or twisting, which will make it fly crooked and play hell with the FLCS (if equipped). The only module that models this level of granular detail is the Tomcat (and still fairly rudimentary) Its not just about breaking the wings, it’s the other loss of capability that’s going to factor into the fight. People love to boast about how realistic DCS is, until it becomes inconvenient to their play style, at which time they simply try to justify it away. Anyway I’ve said my piece and I don’t want to drag this off topic any longer. But on topic, perhaps one of the reasons the 16 struggles is it’s the only module that doesn’t have some kind of unrealistic exploit that can be leveraged. No paddle, FLCS breakers, flaps or ability to Over G. Might be why I prefer it, despite everything - it feels like the purest, cleanest flight model. If you get beat in a viper v viper fight, you know it’s because the other guy was better than you, not because he gamified the edge cases of the flight model.

There’s a pretty big difference between one short duration 10-12G pull, and what DCS players do though. Those RL excursions were very short duration, followed by gingerly limping the aircraft home in an unknown serviceability state. DCS players hit 12G repeatedly and for longer duration over the span of a long fight. The damage potential of repeated and sustained over G is significantly higher than one transient oopsie pull. DCS doesn’t model the cumulative damage that each pull would create, ultimately ending in some kind of aircraft damage. Only battle damage models a weakened airframe and therefore less G before breakage. I know this is OT, but I oft hear people justifying over G in game using these real life anecdotes, when it’s not the same thing.

Try using the CMS hat for trim instead, it’s in a much more natural position.

Awesome, thanks for your response. Since the issues are known I'll not clutter up the bug threads and let you guys work. Cheers!

@BIGNEWY or @Raptor9, this post above, should I create a dedicated bug report? Or is this acknowledged already? I'm happy to create a dedicated bug thread if this hasn't been noted yet. My bug report would be less about the behaviour of the SAS, and more about the behaviour of the ball indicator (falling to the inside of the turn with gravity rather than indicating a coordinated turn)

Yeah, the SAS saturated is one issue. In the other thread about yaw control, a member was complaining that every time he tapped the FTR, the yaw would "kick" on him. This was because the yaw SAS channel was deflected over to maintain heading and not aligned with his pedals. This is what I'm referring to. It is avoidable if you are still flying the aircraft - moving your pedals to the correct position to maintain heading in the hover. Then SAS isn't going to bump when you tap FTR because it's already centered. If you have the control indicator up to give you the visual cue and ensure you're always aligning controls with the SAS, it won't be an issue for you. Though again, holding FTR and flying the aircraft manually to a stable hover before releasing FTR is the most correct way to do it. This ensures you're setting the SAS up with a nice, trimmed and centered start point.

I’m just giving the book answer Do what you’re confortable with! The issue with bump and press is the SAS channels never have a chance to center, so you can get that “kick” when you tap FTR and the channels move towards center. Press and hold ensures the SAS always starts out centered in the new stick position / attitude.

The correct, by the book answer is #2. Hold the FTR. It isn't what people want to hear, but if you can't hover for short periods with FTR depressed, you haven't mastered flying the aircraft yet. Practice hovering with the FTR depressed. Once you master that, everything else will be easier. This is the way.

Yes, the instability is a bit tough, but with practice you will learn to hover with FTR depressed, despite the instability. That being said, Raptor's explanation above states the instability right now is a bit extreme - it will get better (that's his point #3). The proper, correct way is to hold the FTR. In the interim, until they work on that instability, would be to look at your control indicator and move your pedals to center your pedal position on the green line (SAS position) before trimming. Although not realistic it will alleviate your issue. They key to remember is that, despite the fact SAS is helping you fly the aircraft, you are still flying the aircraft. So while SAS heading hold is still doing it's job, you should be anticipating the necessary pedal inputs and applying them anyway. This will make SAS's job easier, and ultimately yours!

This is what I was trying to address with my response above. I think perhaps the piece of info that you are missing is that, every time you depress the FTR, it tries to align the SAS channels with your pedal position (it does the same for pitch and roll as well, but it's less noticeable). So if you hit trim with the pedals not aligned with the green line, it will attempt to center the green line with where your pedals currently are, and will cause that jump. The reason it never actually aligns in your case is that it takes a few seconds, and you are just tapping the trim button, rather than holding it. My suggestion above to hold the FTR helps avoid this. Hold the FTR and apply the necessary pedal input to maintain heading. Then when you release FTR, the SAS doesn't need to deflect away from your current pedal position. Alternately, before you press trim, use your pedals to bring your pedal position in line with the green line in your control indicator. Then your pedals will be in the correct position to counter the yaw and the SAS won't need or try to center (because it's already centered). As I hope I was able to clearly explain above, this is exactly what is happening - and it's supposed to do that.

Thank you for these two wonderful explanations! I agree with your assessment - fly it the way that works for you. However, to settle my own professional curiosity, how did / do you guys fly the Apache? Do you tend to depress and hold FTR when maneuvering, then release once the attitude is set? Or do you push against the force trim? I know in the 412 I hold the FTR depressed the entire time when doing precision hover work - this is just my technique as I have fairly steady hands. Others who have a tendency to stir the cyclic I always advise to release the FTR in the hover and make very small corrections against the FTR, only releasing it if a more major change has to be made. Those are our 2 schools of thought, I believe 75% of us probably depress the FTR throughout the hover. Forward flight is typically with ATT mode engaged, depress FTR to set the attitude and then release it until another attitude change is necessary. How did / do you guys do it? Edit: Saw your response in the force trim thread, thanks. Seems like your techniques are pretty much the same as ours. Cheers!

That’s rather ingenious, I may have to give that a try, thanks! Your understanding is how the 412 works. There is a big difference between hovering with FTR depressed and hovering with the autopilots turned completely off. The DCS Apache feels like hovering autopilots off right now when you hold FTR. Again not sure Apache specific, but your understanding is correct for the 412 and would seem logical for the Apache. If this does get fixed / implemented down the road, holding FTR down as I described above will definitely be the way!

Cross posting this from a different thread as I think there may be value for those struggling to work the trim: So, one of the Apache pilots would have to chime in for the Apache specifically, but I can tell you how I fly the 412 in real life. It has similar force trim and SAS / SCAS systems, though a touch less advanced than the Apache. In the 412, I hold the FTR any time I am moving the controls. In straight and level flight, FTR is released and I let the SAS do its job. Anytime I adjust the aircraft attitude, I depress and hold FTR, set the aircraft attitude, and release FTR. This ensures the APIs (as they are called on the 412) always start out centered. In the 412, if you push against FTR you are also pushing against the SAS, and it fights you. Then you end up with autotrim failures (same idea as SAS saturated). I have tried this in the DCS Apache, and it seems the most effective way to control the aircraft without getting those unwanted movements. It doesn’t work perfectly as the center trimmer in DCS doesn’t work the same so you can still get a bit of jumping around when you release trim. You have to train yourself to recenter the stick immediately after releasing trim, and/or make very small inputs at a time. It’s a bit wonky. So, how does this translate in game then? An example. On picking up to hover, I am holding the FTR as I pull light on wheels, and into the pickup. Once stable(ish) in hover, release FTR and let SCAS help. Your stick will be trimmed to near hover position, your yaw SCAS channel will be centered, and SCAS will help stabilize you in hover. This is the key to avoid attitude “jumping” when you depress FTR and the channels center, especially in yaw. You can even activate auto hover at this point. A minor adjustment to this technique is to hold FTR until light on wheels, then release it for the pickup. Now yaw SCAS will be near centered and SCAS will help you through the pick up. Now to transition to forward flight, I depress and hold FTR, set the accelerating attitude I want, stabilize there then release FTR. Now again everything is centered, trim is set for forward flight, and I can engage att mode or keep flying manually with minor adjustments to controls, with or without FTR depressed depending on how minor the adjustment. Decelerating back to hover is the hard part because of the self centering stick and FTR implementation in DCS. Now you pull the cyclic back to decelerate, but can only get as far back as centered because of your trim position. I am working on the muscle memory to initiate the decel with FTR depressed, release FTR and center the stick, then quickly reset trim and continue. It’s a bit wonky and not very realistic but without a proper non-centering stick it’s a challenge. Anyway, I hope this essay helps. Ultimately it’s all a challenge because most of us aren’t working with proper sticks. I’ve played both with no springs and with springs, both have downsides. No spring means you can’t ever take your hand off the cyclic, can’t use att/hover modes, etc. With a human CPG I like this, as he can do most of the comms, nav input, etc. With George I have to do all that and fly, so I’ve settled on using a sprung stick. One day maybe I’ll buy a fancy base with dry clutches to get as close as possible to reality….

So, one of the Apache pilots would have to chime in for the Apache specifically, but I can tell you how I fly the 412 in real life. It has similar force trim and SAS / SCAS systems, though a touch less advanced than the Apache. In the 412, I hold the FTR any time I am moving the controls. In straight and level flight, FTR is released and I let the SAS do its job. Anytime I adjust the aircraft attitude, I depress and hold FTR, set the aircraft attitude, and release FTR. This ensures the APIs (as they are called on the 412) always start out centered. In the 412, if you push against FTR you are also pushing against the SAS, and it fights you. Then you end up with autotrim failures (same idea as SAS saturated). I have tried this in the DCS Apache, and it seems the most effective way to control the aircraft without getting those unwanted movements. It doesn’t work perfectly as the center trimmer in DCS doesn’t work the same so you can still get a bit of jumping around when you release trim. You have to train yourself to recenter the stick immediately after releasing trim, and/or make very small inputs at a time. It’s a bit wonky. So, how does this translate in game then? An example. On picking up to hover, I am holding the FTR as I pull light on wheels, and into the pickup. Once stable(ish) in hover, release FTR and let SCAS help. Your stick will be trimmed to near hover position, your yaw SCAS channel will be centered, and SCAS will help stabilize you in hover. This is the key to avoid attitude “jumping” when you depress FTR and the channels center, especially in yaw. You can even activate auto hover at this point. A minor adjustment to this technique is to hold FTR until light on wheels, then release it for the pickup. Now yaw SCAS will be near centered and SCAS will help you through the pick up. Now to transition to forward flight, I depress and hold FTR, set the accelerating attitude I want, stabilize there then release FTR. Now again everything is centered, trim is set for forward flight, and I can engage att mode or keep flying manually with minor adjustments to controls, with or without FTR depressed depending on how minor the adjustment. Decelerating back to hover is the hard part because of the self centering stick and FTR implementation in DCS. Now you pull the cyclic back to decelerate, but can only get as far back as centered because of your trim position. I am working on the muscle memory to initiate the decel with FTR depressed, release FTR and center the stick, then quickly reset trim and continue. It’s a bit wonky and not very realistic but without a proper non-centering stick it’s a challenge. Anyway, I hope this essay helps. Ultimately it’s all a challenge because most of us aren’t working with proper sticks. I’ve played both with no springs and with springs, both have downsides. No spring means you can’t ever take your hand off the cyclic, can’t use att/hover modes, etc. With a human CPG I like this, as he can do most of the comms, nav input, etc. With George I have to do all that and fly, so I’ve settled on using a sprung stick. One day maybe I’ll buy a fancy base with dry clutches to get as close as possible to reality….

This is the way. In fact, that's how I do all maneuvering. I depress and hold the FTR, set the aircraft attitude, then release the FTR. This ensures your SAS channels are always centered and avoids SAS saturated situations. It's a bit tougher in the hover as it does disable (actually reduces) roll/pitch assistance, but you just need to get used to that. Spend some time just hovering with FTR depressed, get good hovering that way and you'll be rock solid when you start using FTR (and therefore SAS) again.

No that’s legit, the aircraft should have significant yaw with collective movements. In fact it’s a bit under pronounced in the DCS Apache, because of the SCAS yaw channel helping you out (assuming it’s working correctly). One of the emergencies we practice regularly is landing with a stuck pedal. If I stick the pedal on a student at 90% torque, where we require 70% to hover IGE, that 20% torque difference means the aircraft will have significant rotation on landing.

Interesting, though I have a hard time believing the rolling moment from the tail rotor would be forceful enough to generate such a significant and sudden roll. I also fly a helicopter with a high mounted tail rotor, and the rolling moment isn’t even noticeable, let alone enough to cause such an undesirable flight condition. I wonder if the wonkiness in the ball and the SCAS response to it that I shared above plays into it. Trying to center the ball in response to the incorrect ball indications may lead to more left pedal / tail rotor thrust than desired and therefore more roll moment…

Hovering it is actually easy, no problem there. I did notice the roll axis seems more sensitive after the last update, but adjusting saturation easily solved that. It’s the unexpected and unpredictable behaviour in dynamic manoeuvring that’s weird. 9 times out of 10 during a specific manoeuvre it will be fine, but that 1 time in 10 it will bite you with a snap roll. I am still trying to determine any kind of pattern or consistency in it.

I did some quick testing, and found something interesting. I set the apache up at about 85% torque and 100kts. This resulted in a slight climb, but I wanted to ensure airspeed and torque remain constant in the turn so as not to change coordinated flight parameters. With the ball centered, I then started a turn as tight as I could without losing airspeed or having to increase torque. So, with the collective and pedals frozen, I turned the aircraft and maintained (within 5kts / 5%) my parameters. In both turns, the ball immediately falls to the inside of the turn, as if it's following gravity, not the G loading of the aircraft as it should. This is where it got interesting: In a left turn, the SCAS yaw channel slowly motored over to re-center the ball in the turn. On roll-out, the ball deflected heavily to the right, until the SCAS motored back to my trimmed center, where the ball re-centered. So in a left turn, it seems the SCAS wants to correct for the incorrect ball behaviour, resulting in a significantly uncoordinated turn. In a right turn, none of that behaviour was exhibited - the SCAS stayed centered in the trimmed position, and on roll out the ball centered again on it's own. So in addition to the ball behaviour, there seems to be some inconsistency in how the yaw channel deals with it. Add to this, if I try and center the ball myself in the turn (as a good helicopter pilot should always do), I'm actually putting the aircraft in a significantly uncoordinated situation. I wonder if this uncoordinated flight is causing some of the wonkyness / uncommanded roll that we are seeing... Here's a track file of my testing: apache ball.trk

Yeah something serious has changed. The roll axis seems extremely sensitive now, and the uncommanded rolls are back. Call it FM, SCAS, whatever - something changed for the worse. I've never flown a helicopter that was prone to snap rolling itself inverted without some serious attempts to mishandle it.... I kind of wonder if it's related to the ball. I think it's already been documented in a bug report, but the ball behaviour is incorrect in the IHADSS - if you bank, the ball follows the bank. It shouldn't, if it's a coordinated turn it should stay centered. Now, without the seat of the pants feel to ensure you aren't in uncoordinated flight, and without a working ball indicator, it's possible during maneuvering to fly extremely uncoordinated. Is this possibly causing some of the weird behaviour?

Sadly no Vimy. It was the first thing I went looking for. The grand castle overlooking the Dieppe landing beaches is also missing. I had requested both in the Channel map some time ago, apparently they didn't make the cut for Normandy 2.0

I also possibly am looking at it from a different perspective. I don't have expectations for a perfect flight model - that's impossible given the fact I'm using a PC joystick (albeit a quality one), without proper force trim and with a much smaller stick throw than the real thing. Add in the lack of seat of the pants feel and peripheral vision / depth perception, and it is impossible to replicate the experience of the real thing 1:1. In short, I can't fly the DCS Huey as well as I can fly the real thing. I struggle to do precision hovering, 1 skid on inserts, etc - all things I can do second nature in the real aircraft. It's not because the DCS flight model is wrong, it's primarily a combination of the above factors. For what it is and considering all these limitations, the Huey flight model is pretty darn good.

1. Regarding the simulator, you are actually agreeing with me. What I said was the Level D sim flight model is not realistic (to the aircraft or DCS). 2. Feel free to disagree. I'm secure in my opinion based on thousands of hours flying helicopters. I never said it was perfect (it's not). But it's pretty good, and better than a multi million dollar professional simulator.

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