heloguy

Anyone else had this problem: I made it all the way through checkout and PayPal, but when I clicked "Go back to merchant" the VKB site said "Order Cancelled." I have an email message from PayPal that I paid VKB, but no order confirmation from VKB. I emailed rrhode, so we'll see what he says. I just don't want to end up paying twice by placing another order, but I also don't want to miss out on the pre-order.

I was not aware that they were called the same thing, though I can assure you, the TT straps in a Huey rotor system, and the TT straps in a rigid rotor system do not perform the same function. I am wondering, though, Yogi, will the EC-135 control set I recently ordered have spring force on the cyclic stick? Or just dampers?

I can confirm (I have just spoke with a former Huey maintainer) that a Huey does not use TT straps. That part is to reinforce the centrifugal motion of the blade's weight on the rotor system. Basically it is there to help hold it on, not to bring it back to center. That part does not work the same way as TT straps in a rigid rotor system, such as the BO-105. I can also confirm that the controls do not return to center with the power off. Again, on the moving of controls without power, it is because the controls are most likely mechanically driven, and most likely on a smaller helicopter. Nothing as big as an H-60, or larger. Perhaps I should simplify, the smaller the helicopter, the more likely you can move the controls power off, the larger the helicopter, you must have hydraulic power to move the controls.

The rotor was spinning at 35sec, so the hydraulic pressure should have been on already, if this helicopter has hydraulic servos (not familiar with this model). Certain helicopters do not use hydraulic primary servos. These, it would be possible to move the controls with the power off. These are usually small helicopters.

Yogi, I missed this post before. The yellow part you are showing looks like what I've seen called a 'TT' (torque/tension) strap. It replaces the bearings in a fully articulated rotor system. It allows the blades to flap, hunt, and twist. Yes, it has a resting position, but I do not believe it would have enough force to neutralize the entire control system, unless they are not hydraulically driven. If a helicopter's primary control servos are hydraulically driven, it is impossible to move them when the hydraulic pumps are not operating. Therefore, if you for whatever reason held the controls away from neutral, and removed hydraulic power, it would be impossible for them to return to center. Normally, as stated before, this is not the case, because on shutdown, the pilot neutralizes the controls to prevent damage to the rotor system. The Huey rotor system is semi-rigid and underslung. It teeters on top of the mast for flapping, and does not allow for the blades to hunt. There is no such thing like that BO-105 part on the UH-1 head.

What exactly are you wanting us to notice? You definitely cannot do that with a cold H-1, H-60, H-53, H-47, etc. Like I said, you CAN do this with an OH-6, or an R22, or R44. I never said all helicopters the controls can't be moved with the power off. I just said most of the ones I have flown. I also don't notice any tendancy for the controls to return to neutral power off. He moves them there.

Ice bear, glad you were able to confirm. I'm familiar with mast bending in rigid rotor head helicopters, as I have worked on them as a mechanic, but I have not yet flown them as a pilot. I've flown helicopters with rigid underslung rotorheads, as well as fully articulated rotor systems. In all of them, you neutralize the cyclic during startup and shutdown in order to prevent damage to the rotor system components. In an underslung rotor, such as the Huey, or B206, it is because the rotor could swing on its hinge and contact that mast (mast bumping). On a fully articulated rotor system, such as the H-60, or H-53, you could damage the flap restrainers or droop stops. In some cases, with extreme control inputs, and depending on the helicopter, you could contact the aircraft itself with the blades. Trip, you are correct in assuming that there are no spring forces (known as force gradient) in the controls when trim is turned off. Hydraulic damping would be the only thing felt, due to how the system works (again depending on the helicopter; as an aside, an OH-6 has no hydraulic assistance in the controls, everything is a direct linkage, so there would be no damping). In some cases, when trim is turned off, automatic flight control systems turn off automatically, as they need trim to function. As for your last question, it depends upon the helicopter. A B206 only has trim for the cyclic. The pedals have no trim, and the collective uses a friction knob to maintain position. In a CH-53 and some models of the UH-60, there is trim for all controls. The collectiive has a trigger that releases the force gradient when depressed, allowing you to set a collective setting for the trim to hold. Same with pedals (switches are usually on the front of the pedals for you to press with the balls of your feet). Other models of H-60 only have trim on the cyclic and pedals, with a friction knob for the collective. It really just depends on the helicopter, and how much money the end user is willing to spend. Even with trim turned off, for most helicopters, I would believe the hydraulic damping would be realistic, even the Gazelle in your aforementioned example. As for your last question, I have never heard of any helicopter with centering forces in any controls, only trim that provides force gradient as set by the user.

Trip, That isn't a bad suggestion. Ice bear, if this is what you meant, I apologize. I just didin't want a centering force applied to the stick when trim is released/off. Yogi, I had no idea the Arduino could do that Sounds pretty interesting.

I am a licensed helicopter pilot, for the last 10 years. I do understand what you are saying, and I'm telling you it doesn't exist. The cyclic in the helicopters I fly are also resting in a somewhat neutral state (standing) when they are shutdown as well. This is not because of a centering force. It is because when you shut a helicopter down, you physically have the stick in neutral, and when you remove hydraulic power, hydrostatic lock keeps it there. If you placed the stick as far forward and left as possible in a real helicopter, and shut down hydraulic power, it would stay close to that position, just as you describe with Yogi's stick. It doesn't just return to neutral on its own when power is removed. The cyclic in your picture is standing upright because when the pilot who shut down the helicopter removed power from the aircraft, he already had the cyclic in that position. Did you try to move the cyclic in any of the aircraft you have sat in when they were not running? I would guess you would have found it hard to move, except for a small amount of mechanical movement. This is due to the hydraulics/electrical power being off. This is not about arguing, it's about understanding.

I've only seen balance springs installed on the larger aircraft I've worked with. The balance spring is there to balance stick forces (no trim force gradient applied). Basically it ensures that the amount of pressure it takes to move the controls is the same in all axes. It shouldn't apply on a home simulator cyclic, as the mechanism for that is not nearly as complicated as the pushrod/bellcrank system common to large helicopters. As far as your second question, I have also met a few guys who like to fly with trim turned off, but in my experience, it's usually in a smaller helicopter (Bell 206/OH-58 ) while flying VFR, or only when maneuvering around the airfield (taxi). This is just because they didn't want to have to hold the trim switch in the whole time. Trim is usually required to be on for any of the built in automatic flight control systems to function, which are common on larger/newer helicopters. In simple helicopters, like the Huey, I could easily see someone turning it off for low level maneuvers, gunnery, formation flight, etc. Having force trim is great for instrument flying, long enroute legs, and to give your self the ability to take your hand off the cyclic for other tasks, though.

Yes I understand what you mean. No, there is no force such as this in any helicopter I've ever flown. When force trim is turned off, the cyclic feels like you are pressing the trim release indefinitely. There is even the possibility that the cyclic will fall to whatever side it is already displaced if there is hydraulic power applied, force trim is off, and that particular helicopter doesn't have a balance spring system installed. You have to get a feel for where the cyclic needs to be on startup, and put it there yourself. No springs will help you, force trim on or off. I'm sorry if I come off gruff, but I have wanted a realistic force trim for my home sim for quite some time, and would hate to see unrealistic behavior in this product if this is the only chance for it. In fact, if you have a force feedback stick and the DCS Huey, you can see the behavior correctly when you turn force trim on and off in the sim using the switch on the center console.

You are exactly correct Yogi, there is no centering force, only a force to return the stick to the reference as set by the trim switch, and trim release based on the helicopter configuration of course. You sound like your understanding of how this works is spot on, and I look forward to implementing your FTR on my system when it is available too (I ordered an EC set of controls for March delivery).

The rattling would definitely be a show stopper, but I'm not sure what you mean by 'difficulty to find center after landing and takeoff afterwards.' In a real helo, you find it by feel as you lift off (proprioceptive), or by watching the aircraft attitude and motion over the ground as you lift off. That is, if you consider 'center' to be neutral (no motion in a no wind situation). Even this is not truly neutral, or center, because if you are at a hover in a no wind situation, you are compensating for main rotor torque and tail rotor thrust, which causes pedal and cyclic displacement. Basically, what I'm getting at, is that there is no true center for helo controls, only neutral, which changes based on the situation. This is why force trim works the way it does.

Thanks for stepping in with those angle numbers, both Slaw and Baur.

My mistake.

@elecsys, No issues, just wasn't sure which angle you were talking about. As far as Baur's are concerned, it looks like the vertical angle of the toe brakes is slightly adjustable, maybe between 60-80 degrees. As it stands, mine are at the '80' degree mark, and it still feels like it takes too much movement to max out their travel. Like I said, it's not a real big problem, though. Slaw's pedals don't seem to have any adjustment for the toe brake angle.

Baur's set does include the mounts for both installs. I think you can only do one angle, or the other. There is nothing in between from what you see in the pictures you posted. Slaw's pedals do not allow for that angle adjustment.

elecsys Don't get me wrong, Slaw's pedals are great, but I'll detail below. Between Slaw's, and Baur's, they are almost the exact same size widthwise, so you definitely need a good amount of room for them. Both of them require to be mounted. Both have smooth action using roller bearings and a cam design. I have the damper installed on both. I received Baur's first, quickly switching to the soft center cam. Between that, and the damper feel, it's the closest I've come to the feeling of actual pedals. Very precise, and no sticktion. My only complaint is that the toe brakes seem to have a very large travel throw. Not a big deal, as on most sims I can adjust the top end deadzone. I've set them to about 75% where I can, and this seems to work pretty well. Slaw's came next, so I swapped the F1's out to give them a try. Same precise, smooth feeling, with no sticktion as Baur's, and the toe brakes seem to be (default) mounted more vertically. Consequently, you do not have to extend your feet as far to fully depress the brakes on Slaw's pedals. They may be able to be adjusted, but I haven't tried, as I like them where they are. The first difference I noticed was that the center felt much harder on the default cam than what I had been used to in my two weeks with the F1s, so I switched to the 'soft' center cam (very easy to switch cams on both by the way). Even with the softer cam, the center is more pronounced with the Slaw pedals, although it is not a problem per se with controllability (again, very smooth and precise), but may be a matter of preference. I prefer the F1's feel, as I said. The other thing I noticed, is that the actual throw of the rudder pedals themselves from full left to full right is slightly less than that of Baur's design. Again, I think this would be more of a personal preference thing, but I prefer the F1's with the larger movement. Also, at the time, Baur's pedals were slightly cheaper (by about $100 U.S.). I still have both, and I'm not planning on getting rid of either any time soon, but right now I'm using the F1's. All three cams were included, and I've only tried two. As far as the angle you're referring to, I'm not sure exactly what angle you're talking about. Baur's I think can only be installed one angle vertically, and then are adjustable in the horizontal plane. I prefer them straight, as Slaw's are.

I have the F1 version with the damper installed, using the soft center cam, and SU-35 pedals. Honestly I can't recommend them enough. I don't have the kamov style pedals, so I cannot comment on the differences, but I do have Slaw Vipers, and while those are extremely nice pedals too, I prefer Baur's design. This is mainly due to a larger pedal travel, and smoother feel with the soft center cam (I also have the softest center cam available in my Slaw pedals). I'm sure you couldn't go wrong with either set.

My god...

Definitely understood, I just didn't want people to get their hopes up when they saw that pic with hands in the cockpit. Looks real promising, though.

Dude you should get a seatbelt :thumbup: Might be a staple sim requirement once VR gets in full swing.

Great video, and exciting that VKB is getting as popular as they are. The music was great too. Reminds me of the beginning montage to an 80's martial arts film (who doesn't like 80's martial arts films?)

Chuck Norris can.

Just tried this too. It doesn't seem to have any functionality yet, and the hands were stuck in weird orientations unrelated to my own hands (index finger pointing back at me when my hand wrist would have to be broken to be able to pull it off). In the MI-8, it seemed like they were locked to the engineer's seat (center seat). Again, no real functionality I could find. None of the buttons did anything, I just had hands floating around in the same relative position as my own. I checked the control options, and didn't see any options to assign functions, or to re-orient the hands once I was holding the touch controllers. Exciting though. Will be extremely useful when it works.