Dynamic Campaign Discussion Thread

Are people confusing the AI radio chatter, ATC, AWACS and etc. communication awesomeness with DC in F4? To me it seems like the DC system is generating pretty unimpressive missions and ill-logical and procedural battlefield events but the radio chatter does make the environment feel alive nevertheless. So is the greatness of F4 DC more about the radio comms and player-AI interaction than the events and missions it generates?

No, it is indeed about the missions. They may be illogical -- I don't know about F4 but in EECH sometimes they are logical, sometimes they are not -- but it is definitely much better than pre-scripted missions (*). Not only are these missions always different, but more importantly, whatever happens matters in the future. If you were on some mission and for one reason or another you cannot accomplish your goal, you return to base and the war goes on. If you were supposed to destroy grounded planes and they turn out to bomb your home base, tough luck.

(*) NOTE: I don't own any DCS product, so I cannot comment on how much scripted its missions are!

I really got to hook up with you... I have yet to fly online and i want to but I seem to miss you guys on the TS you gave me.

 

That said - one thing that is remarkable about a DC is that it makes me actually play single player... I NEVER play single player in any sim title, always opting to the online MP experience.

 

However, as Cali put it so well... flying in a DC doesnt feel like you are flying alone thus making F4 BMS the only title I enjoy in SP as well.

 

My god DCS would be amazing if we had the DC.

I'll be on Friday and Saturday night around 11pm till ??

Yea, here's the description from one I flew a little over two years ago. Remember guys:

1) This mission was not scripted, so the amount of time spent having to make it equals zero, and we had no idea what it would be like when we took off.

2) This mission counts towards advancement in the campaign. While we were shooting bandits, other packages of aircraft, doing unscripted, completely different things, were able to get through to their targets because of us. The aircraft we shot down will not be available to the enemy to send against us on future missions. In short, not only was this mission hella fun, we felt like we had accomplished something.

k, here it is:

Well, Puma said he wanted some practice with air to air. We got it! The mission started out as a simple MiG-hunting sweep in Korea 2010 Rolling Fire. It turned out to be the best and most fun Falcon mission I had flown in quite a while!

 

We took off from Choongwon and headed north. As we approached the DMZ, we began to pick up multiple strobers and contacts. We determined that a massive furball had formed north of the DMZ on the Seoul side of Korea. We made some AWACs calls and determined that it was a mixture of MiG-29s and Su-39s. With multiple friendlies involved in the furball, I turned us away to scan to the north and northeast.

 

After about another five minutes, we gave up; the skies were clean, except for the massive furball which was still there. We turned back around and headed back towards the furball. As we approached, F-22, F-16 and MiG-29 spikes started lighting up the RWR. The furball seemed to be turning the DPRK's way, however, and Puma and I each locked up targets and fired; he shot one AMRAAM and I shot two. The 29's were buzzing us up good on the RWR, so we turned and ran and let our AMRAAMs do their thing.

 

We turned back around, engaging offensive again, after the 29s quit buzzing us so incesscently on the RWR. Two groups of fighters appeared on the RWR, both of which perfectly corresponded to the azimuths of 29 spikes displayed by the RWR. No need for AWACs here! Puma went after the southern group, and I went after the northern one.

 

However within seconds, the southern group had gone nose cold while the northern one was going increasingly nose hot. They suddenly starting increasing altitude quickly. They were climbing to give their adders more range, and were getting ready to fire! I quickly fired two AMRAAMs at them and pulled a split-S. Looking at the HSD, I saw that these guys were just as close to Puma as they were to me. I told Puma he had to break off his pursuit of the southern contacts and run as well. We unloaded and went full burner.

 

Ahead of us I noticed a group of MiG-21s scrambling off of Wonson airbase. They were the least of our worries, because despite my pair of AMRAAMs, the RWR behind us was filling with 29 spikes! One four ship, then another four-ship, and then another two-ship all displayed tightly around a 60 degree arc on the RWR. Why can't the bad guys just come at us one at a time like on a bad kung-fu movie?!

 

We continued, full afterburner for about 25 miles, and jetisoned our tanks. One of the groups disappeared off the RWR, and the buzzing became less continuous. I figured it was safe to turn around and see what was going on. Both of us pulled a split-S.

 

As I came out of the bottom, I narrowed the radar azimuth scan and focused the radar on the bearing of the most threatening set of 29 spikes. Four blips appeared at angels 34, 11 miles. "They're right on top of us!" I screamed over Teamspeak as I quickly locked one of the contacts and fired an AMRAAM. I immediately pulled another split-S and headed for the dirt. "Fox three, medium! Fox three, medium! Mad dog!" sounded over the radio as Puma pulled a similar shoot and scoot maneuver. "Head for the weeds! Head for the weeds! They may not be able to get us down there!" I yelled over Teamspeak.

 

My aircraft rapidly accelerated and went supersonic as I pushed full burner into a 65 degree dive away from the bandits. My RWR let out the quick chirp of a missile seeker head going active. Oh crap! (Turns out it was probably Puma's mad dog). Our RWRs continued to chirp with the sound of 29s tracking us as we raced for the ground. "Get low! Get REAL low, that may be our only defense! Head south!" I said, and we did just that. I pulled out of my dive into 50 to 150ft NOE flight.

 

Looking over quickly at my HSD, I saw Puma on a parallel track about 7 miles to my left (east). My airspeed reading 800 knots, I flew across the top of a ridge with seemingly inches to spare. As I cleared the ridge, before me lay the brown DMZ valley. Tracers began to flick BOTH ways across the front of my nose. Too low to jink, I just concentrated on flying as low and fast as possible. The sooner I get out of this valley, the better! Or so I thought...

 

Within seconds, I was clear of the valley. I lifted my wing to avoid scraping it on a hillside as I zoomed into the hills south of the DMZ. I topped another small ridge line. Before me, 1000 feet away lay a column of DPRK ground vehicles. Tracers were everywhere, and not just directed at me! They were clearly in battle with friendly troops! As I screamed by, no more than a few hundred feet away, one of the DPRK tanks exploded in a mushroom of fire.

 

As I exited the battle area, Bitchin' Betty suddenly called "BINGO, BINGO". I was using fuel at a tremendous rate! However, perhaps I was close to safety- the FLOT was right in front of me! I was still getting two MiG-29 spikes on the RWR, but the RWR was beeping less often. I mentioned this to Puma. "Let me see if I can get one, I don't think they're after me" he said, climbing and turning. "Crap, I can't lock them, I can't get their altitude, but they're still close! I'm turning back around!". As he turned, one of the 29 spikes that had been fixed on my six o-clock began to peel off in his direction. Suddenly, a pair of F-16 spikes appeared at the 12 o-clock position. "Viper 11, engaging MiG-29, bullseye zero-eight-zero, thirty miles, twenty thousand" came the call over the radio. Thank god, the cavalry had arrived!

 

After we heard a few fox three calls over the radio, the RWR was suddenly clear of 29 spikes. However, both Puma's and my fuel situation was dire. I had about 200 lbs, and so did he. Luck was with us again, because in our hasty retreat back across the DMZ, we had flown almost directly towards the divert base, a small highway strip. I climbed to seven thousand feet and finally got a visual on the tiny airfield at my four o-clock. Making a quick turn, I lined up with it heading north. Unfortunately, Puma was lining up as well, and from the OPPOSITE direction! Neither of us had enough fuel to go around. "I'll take the right side." said Puma after I told him. "There is no 'right side!'" I exclaimed as I eyed the puny runway. "We'll just have to use the grass" he said, and with the speed that I was coming in at, I definately agreed with that.

 

I pulled some hard turns and finally got the speed down to around 170 knots. I touched down too far down along the strip- about a third of the way. There was only one way to stop! I quickly turned my jet into the grass. The drag of the rough surface helped me slow down much more quickly. As I came to a stop, I looked out of the front of my jet to see Puma make a much more dignified landing going the other way; but he too had to put it in the grass to help stop the dang thing on such a short strip. We shut down the aircraft. The last thing my RWR showed before I turned it off was yet more 29 spikes heading south. What a mission! If this doesn't rate an "excellent" rating for both of us, I don't know what DOES.

That was honest to god what happened in probably the most exciting Falcon 4 mission I flew, ever. We "only" got 3 bandits (and damaged a fourth), but we flew into hell and back.

Anyway, while that was probably the most exciting mission I ever flew in falcon 4, there were actually a lot of really exciting moments like that. Scripted missions can match the action, the first time or two, but they can't match the sense of accomplishment. First of all, you know that scripted missions were designed to be survivable (usually...) and secondly, how well you do in a scripted mission doesn't really effect how well you do in the campaign (other than mission success or failure).

Sounds like you guys had an exciting mission! Makes me want to go fly right now!

No, it is indeed about the missions. They may be illogical -- I don't know about F4 but in EECH sometimes they are logical, sometimes they are not -- but it is definitely much better than pre-scripted missions (*). Not only are these missions always different, but more importantly, whatever happens matters in the future. If you were on some mission and for one reason or another you cannot accomplish your goal, you return to base and the war goes on. If you were supposed to destroy grounded planes and they turn out to bomb your home base, tough luck.

 

 

(*) NOTE: I don't own any DCS product, so I cannot comment on how much scripted its missions are!

I forgot to add something important here. In a DC, when you are on your mission, the world around you is also active. This is very important to convey the feeling that you are a very small cog on a big war machine, and not the savior of the Universe on whose shoulders the war outcome relies.

The stories mentioned above are good examples. I don't remember as vividly, but I have one of my own, where I was (in EECH) flying an AH-64D with one wingman, coming back from a SEAD mission. I spot an enemy formation of four Ka-52s. There is no "ask permission to engage" in EECH, so I thought whether I should take them out or not. Sadly, I didn't have much fuel left, and I had two AA missiles while my wingman had three after a previous encounter with another enemy helicopter group, so I decided to just run away.

It turns out that those two helicopters then wrecked one of my side's airbases including destroying several parked helicopters and planes, so I should probably have tried to stop them. This isn't a "mission failed, please try again" outcome. It is "for the next few days/weeks/months, this airbase is operating at partial capacity and your war efforts in the region will suffer".

This is the really cool part of a DC: sometimes completely independent missions cross paths, and unpredictable stuff can happen. You come back with WAR STORIES (which are of course much less intense than stories from true war), and as you can see from my example and those above me, people remember them rather well.

Yea, here's the description from one I flew a little over two years ago. Remember guys:

1) This mission was not scripted, so the amount of time spent having to make it equals zero, and we had no idea what it would be like when we took off.

2) This mission counts towards advancement in the campaign. While we were shooting bandits, other packages of aircraft, doing unscripted, completely different things, were able to get through to their targets because of us. The aircraft we shot down will not be available to the enemy to send against us on future missions. In short, not only was this mission hella fun, we felt like we had accomplished something.

 

k, here it is:

 

 

 

That was honest to god what happened in probably the most exciting Falcon 4 mission I flew, ever. We "only" got 3 bandits (and damaged a fourth), but we flew into hell and back.

 

Anyway, while that was probably the most exciting mission I ever flew in falcon 4, there were actually a lot of really exciting moments like that. Scripted missions can match the action, the first time or two, but they can't match the sense of accomplishment. First of all, you know that scripted missions were designed to be survivable (usually...) and secondly, how well you do in a scripted mission doesn't really effect how well you do in the campaign (other than mission success or failure).

:doh: Thanks alot Speed. I was supposed to prepare a 30 day business plan and wound up flying Falcon instead after I read your post.

Similarily interesting BAI mission just now. Lifted Kimpo in a 2 ship to engage any hostile ground targets near Suchon Airfield as we had 2 armoured Battalions converging on the AO and they wanted some enemy attrition. I had a time hack of 0:00 for the friendly arrival and a 20 min play time over target.

Some friendly fighter cap kept niusance Chinese away to my Northeast as I scoured with my FCR in snowplow. I picked up an east bound towed gun convoy on the backside of a ridge and attrited it fully with my CBU97 and Mavs. I prioritized these targets knowing some friendly A-10s would have to fly a support mission in 2 virtual hours over our troops.

Flew home knowing i did a good thing. I'll likely follow the A10 progress later today to see if I helped them out or not.

I see comments knocking the F4 campaign. While it isn't perfect i think it is bad form to knock something when you haven't even come close to matching it yet.

The same thing than my idea here :

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=84001

But for single player with advanced AI for manage can be a perfect dynamic campaign

Awesome Story Speed. Was a very good read and it shows why Dynamic Campaigns are so fun to fly.

ED has a plan for dynamic mission generation which was not entirely put into implementation in A-10C due to resource constraints. That's all I'll say and hope the powers that be won't zap me.

 

As you can see, a host of new features are added with each iteration DCS. While the OP complains that it's all graphics, some people like Ripcord have seen that there are significant improvements in the ME as well - and I don't mean little bug fixes, I mean real, useable, new features.

That's true. I'm very new here but after flying and using the A10 i really was impressed about the detail you put into this machine and the overall game.

I haven't followed every improvement on A-10 but i really hope you make a dynamic campaign similar to Falcon 4.0.

I still play FreeFalcon and BMS. Those are modded versions of Falcon 4.0 and the work on them is impressive.

Imho the simulated aircraft would come even more to life if you have a fully dynamic capaign. It's one side of the coin to fully simulate an aircraft and the other to also use it under "near" real life conditions over an area where situations can change permanently and where you have countless units on both sides.

The interessting thing about the dynamic campaign from Falcon was that you couldn't be everywhere at the same time, you had limited resources in the air and you had fight for survival if enemy squadrons crossed your path. There was no hand holding like in most linear games.

I also never seen any other game besides falcon where you had mission to transfer your squadron to a frontline base. Also in no game up til now i had the feeling that i'm in the middle of a big war.

And i have the impression that your wonderfull simulated aircraft could show their full beauty and potential in a dynamic ever changing campaign.

As a proposal it would be really fantasic to have different flavoured theaters like WWII era and Modern Day era. Wouldn't it be funny to fly an A-10 or F16 in a WWII scenario or the Mustang in modern day combat?

If you could choose what aircraft to fly and choose it's armament in such environment...that would be really be a dream come true. Or atleast the first game after over a decade to have fully simulated aircraft and dynamic campaigns....priceless ;)

A Dynamic campaign in DCS would be an incredible addon ,something almost everybody would love,but I really can't see how it can be done right now in such a small map and with the

CPU and GPU resources this game needs.

Anyway any step in that direction would be really appreciated.

The thing that's nice is you can set up your steerpoints, weapons (individually). There is so much you can do in the UI with getting things set up before you fly, it's crazy. Then you can fly a single player campaign with other players also! At first I didn't think a DC was that big of a deal, now I see how much better it is, especially when multiplayer is on life support!

The thing that's nice is you can set up your steerpoints, weapons (individually). There is so much you can do in the UI with getting things set up before you fly, it's crazy. Then you can fly a single player campaign with other players also! At first I didn't think a DC was that big of a deal, now I see how much better it is, especially when multiplayer is on life support!

And thats why Falcon is still alive, BMS took my heart and its love now :wub:

DCS A-10 and BS 2 feel so "sterile",briefing map is low res picture etc.. no life at all.. I will back to dcs if they make better campaing system. :book:

I also never seen any other game besides falcon where you had mission to transfer your squadron to a frontline base. Also in no game up til now i had the feeling that i'm in the middle of a big war.

If you like helicopters, try EECH. The original game was not that good, but with all the mods it has become very impressive and, IMO, the best helicopter sim overall (because it has a DC, whereas Black Shark does not). I also like the fact that you can fly several helis. If you forget that the Comanche does not exist (to me that is not a bother), you can fly 4 helicopters natively (AH-64A, AH-64D, RAH-66, Mi-28, Ka-50 and Ka-52 -- the two Apache variants and the two Hokum variants count as one only for me). With the mods there is ample support (cockpits, flight models, etc) for two more (AH-1Z, Mi-24).

AND: there is still work being done, especially in new textures and cockpits.

To be honest, if the source code of EECH2 were released, so that we'd have a Directx9 engine instead of a Directx7 one, we'd be able to make a REALLY good game there.

A Dynamic campaign in DCS would be an incredible addon ,something almost everybody would love,but I really can't see how it can be done right now in such a small map and with the

CPU and GPU resources this game needs.

The DC would require virtually zero GPU power. It does require a lot of CPU, but since DCS does not use multi-threading, they can just run two threads at the same time: one for the simulation itself (flight model, etc) and one for the DC. It doesn't mean that it's a piece of cake, but CPU power is probably not a serious problem.

After playing Falcon 4.0, I'd really *love* to buy DCS but I just can't think of playing a sim without a dynamic campaign...it's just essential for me. DCS looks beautiful and from what i have heard, its flight model and mechanics are awesome. Now all it needs for me to purchase is the dynamic campaign.

like many have already said, with a persistent DC you feel as though the game is ALIVE, your actions have lasting consequences...so you plan not just "tactics" for a single mission but instead you think strategically and long-term. differnt actions result in complete randomization of the entire "game world" too, which adds replayability value. a DC would really add an immersive/addictive level of depth and richness to a game such as DCS...proof of this is clear from comparisons i have read by people who own both DCS and Falcon 4.

i will continue to lurk in these forums from time-to-time and hope for an official annuncement confirming plans to develop this aspect. current DCS fans want it, potential fans want it, YOU want it and the world wants it. you know it makes sense ED - DCS deserves this! ;)

After playing Falcon 4.0, I'd really *love* to buy DCS but I just can't think of playing a sim without a dynamic campaign...it's just essential for me. DCS looks beautiful and from what i have heard, its flight model and mechanics are awesome. Now all it needs for me to purchase is the dynamic campaign.

 

like many have already said, with a persistent DC you feel as though the game is ALIVE, your actions have lasting consequences...so you plan not just "tactics" for a single mission but instead you think strategically and long-term. differnt actions result in complete randomization of the entire "game world" too, which adds replayability value. a DC would really add an awesome/addictive level of depth and richness to a game such as DCS...proof of this is clear from comparisons i have read by people who own both DCS and Falcon 4.

 

i will continue to lurk in these forums from time-to-time and hope for an official annuncement confirming plans to develop this aspect. current DCS fans want it, potential fans want it, YOU want it and the world wants it. you know it makes sense ED - DCS deserves this! ;)

If and when we do get a dynamic campaign engine, it is VERY unlikely to be a real time campaign engine like Falcon. I highly doubt we'll ever see such a campaign engine again, as the man hours needed and the cost of making one are simply not sustainable in this day and age imho.

Personally, these days I'm not all that fussed about a DC (as a former Falcon man, I used to think they were essential as well). But now I'd much rather fly a well designed truly realistic mission in MP than a DC that, while fun, isn't actually all that realistic. Do DC can come close to large multiplayer scenarios with humans operating multiple platforms, which is where DCS is heading.

But I do agree that for people who only fly offline (you're all missing out btw), a dynamic campaign is a major factor in the enjoyment/longevity of a sim.

After playing Falcon 4.0, I'd really *love* to buy DCS but I just can't think of playing a sim without a dynamic campaign...it's just essential for me. DCS looks beautiful and from what i have heard, its flight model and mechanics are awesome. Now all it needs for me to purchase is the dynamic campaign.

 

like many have already said, with a persistent DC you feel as though the game is ALIVE, your actions have lasting consequences...so you plan not just "tactics" for a single mission but instead you think strategically and long-term. differnt actions result in complete randomization of the entire "game world" too, which adds replayability value. a DC would really add an immersive/addictive level of depth and richness to a game such as DCS...proof of this is clear from comparisons i have read by people who own both DCS and Falcon 4.

 

i will continue to lurk in these forums from time-to-time and hope for an official annuncement confirming plans to develop this aspect. current DCS fans want it, potential fans want it, YOU want it and the world wants it. you know it makes sense ED - DCS deserves this! ;)

I share this opinion exactly.

Meanwhile I would be happy if we could have something like a small campaign where all the troop movements where ordered by human players (Combined Arms v2?), with reinforcements schedulled depending on triggers.

With a mission manager like Harpoon to create missions like CAP, tankers, AWACS, CAS. Just define an area, a target or a friendly unit and assign resources.

For this to work, taking once more Falcon as an example, we need to be able to create flights with positions that can be occupied by the AI or a human at any moment.

I remember a Falcon server running a campaign 24/7 where I would log in and check for schedulled missions for the next hours and then log in again 30 minutes prior to take off to prepare the mission. That was really inmersive. Knowing the general orders for the batttle are being implemented by another human would be even better.

Wargames for the win!

 

Personally, these days I'm not all that fussed about a DC (as a former Falcon man, I used to think they were essential as well). But now I'd much rather fly a well designed truly realistic mission in MP than a DC that, while fun, isn't actually all that realistic. Do DC can come close to large multiplayer scenarios with humans operating multiple platforms, which is where DCS is heading.

 

But I do agree that for people who only fly offline (you're all missing out btw), a dynamic campaign is a major factor in the enjoyment/longevity of a sim.

Flying a well design mission is great, but how many times do you wanna fly that same mission? How often are people going to keep making missions. I do agree with you on people that only fly offline are missing a lot of fun.

Someone who really tried to fly online will not back to offline flying. As Cali said well designed mission can provide a lot of fun but how many times we can fly the same missions? Even simple DC can bring some life to virtual front.

If and when we do get a dynamic campaign engine, it is VERY unlikely to be a real time campaign engine like Falcon. I highly doubt we'll ever see such a campaign engine again, as the man hours needed and the cost of making one are simply not sustainable in this day and age imho.

 

Personally, these days I'm not all that fussed about a DC (as a former Falcon man, I used to think they were essential as well). But now I'd much rather fly a well designed truly realistic mission in MP than a DC that, while fun, isn't actually all that realistic. Do DC can come close to large multiplayer scenarios with humans operating multiple platforms, which is where DCS is heading.

 

But I do agree that for people who only fly offline (you're all missing out btw), a dynamic campaign is a major factor in the enjoyment/longevity of a sim.

Making a DC sure is costly but how about making it as a global DCS Addon that can be sold seperatly? The way you'll get your money and the players get something they are looking for.

I assume by the lenght of this posting it get's more and more viable to make a DC.

Maybe it would be even a great benefit to have a global DC modul that can be expanded, ties into all DCS and upcoming craft and get's even more theaters over time. Well done it sure can be a huge benefit to DCS and ED because of even more flexebility.

Making a DC sure is costly but how about making it as a global DCS Addon that can be sold seperatly? The way you'll get your money and the players get something they are looking for.

You underestimate how costly it is. Implementing it in phases is far more safe.

I assume by the lenght of this posting it get's more and more viable to make a DC.

And that is exactly what's happening. The random mission generator is there already. Study this quote:

Flaming Cliffs 3. This will be a paid-for update to the Flaming Cliffs series and brings it to the same world, mission editor, AI, units, etc. as A-10C and Black Shark 2. We plan to include several upgrades to the aircraft, a resource management system, and several other new features. This will also make Flaming Cliffs online compatible with A-10C and Black Shark 2. Pricing will depend on what new features are included.

Maybe it would be even a great benefit to have a global DC modul that can be expanded, ties into all DCS and upcoming craft and get's even more theaters over time. Well done it sure can be a huge benefit to DCS and ED because of even more flexebility.

That's probably how they are going to do it.

You underestimate how costly it is. Implementing it in phases is far more safe.

 

 

 

And that is exactly what's happening. The random mission generator is there already. Study this quote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's probably how they are going to do it.

Thanks alot for the info :) Atleast FC2 will also be upgraded. Then i can go ahead an buy FC2. Have been afraid that FC2 would be useless in the future.

Well i don't really know how costly it would be to make a realtime DC but coding takes a great deal of time where even the smallest change is time consuming. In this case i assume that it sure isn't cheap because that's no a small feature but more like a complete new DCS model. If a step by step integration is better then be it so. I just thought that by doing it as one package it could atleast return money for it's production while a step by step addition costs time without benefit for ED from it rather than a hopefull interesst in a new plane with a couple of additions that could be bought but is rather unsure. Oh well. I'm not really into the buisness and i suppose that ED knows what they are doing :)

I’ve actually been working on a Dynamic Campaign engine for Flaming Cliffs 1 for the past year … just for the fun of it. I’ve made pretty good progress. Right now, it just has ground units but eventually aircraft will be implemented. A ground force will attack if it has a reasonable chance of success and will actually become more aggressive if its territory is threatened. As my program generates subsequent campaign stages, group positions and strengths get updated. It’s cool because a tank battle can be fought in one stage, then, in the next stage, you see the updated tank positions and all the carnage from the last battle … destroyed buildings, tank caracasses, artillery holes, etc. I still have a ton of work to do, though. I’m wondering if I should get Flaming Cliffs 2 and adapt my program for that before going any further.