Cheats: AUTO Aerial refueling

Like this. Check out how steady these guys are.

 

Sharpie how far did the boom operator extend the boom to make contact the contact? More importantly when did he start lining up with the receptacle? 20 feet? 10? 5? > I < know when both of these things happened....Do You?

 

Lining up with the receptacle and extending to make the contact are perfect examples of tasks the AI Boom Operator doesn't do that makes AR more difficult than it should be.

 

Part of being able to be "steady" is NOT having to work for 5 minutes to get in exactly the right spot so the boom will plug you.

 

Sierra

 

I can only speak for myself but the contact was never an issue for me, even during my first attempts. Staying in contact is a whole different story and thats the part where the training kicks in (in my case).

 

And I still don't get the point. If I have no time for AAR (due to RL or whatever) why spending 4 minutes on the boom with hands off instead of using unlimited fuel? Both solutions are cheats and ED has a lot of programming work to to on other issues...

I have trouble imagining why people who spend so many hours playing online that they actually run out of fuel don't have time to practice AAR.

And if you're just looking for a cheat then select unlimited fuel and be done with it.

And again. Getting connected is the easy part. Staying connected is the hard part.

There's another thread asking for auto pilot

landing for those who can't practice that. What's next? aim-assist? For console players?

Hey lets just add an AI auto pilot that flies the entire mission and we can just watch. For those who don't have time to learn how to fly. What happened to the part where this is a SIM?

I have trouble imagining why people who spend so many hours playing online that they actually run out of fuel don't have time to practice AAR.

And if you're just looking for a cheat then select unlimited fuel and be done with it.

 

And again. Getting connected is the easy part. Staying connected is the hard part.

 

There's another thread asking for auto pilot

landing for those who can't practice that. What's next? aim-assist? For console players?

 

Hey lets just add an AI auto pilot that flies the entire mission and we can just watch. For those who don't have time to learn how to fly. What happened to the part where this is a SIM?

You noticed Sierra99's comment?!

And whatever you think I should spend my time with, let me ask a question to the community: should I spend my time with something I enjoy or something that makes me angry and frustrated?

The rest of my dedicated DCS time is consumed by mission translations and adaptions and beta testing.

If I would stop this contribution I may find the time to systematically learn the currently way too hard simulated AAR, with an unwilling boom operator or try chasing a basket on a tanker that tries to outrun me as soon as I'm in position (M2000C)

As I said in my other posts. Optional, for people who want(!) to use it, not much effort, from what I see... Or fix the AAR AI behaviour for good, and automate at least the comms, as I always need to get my hand to the F-keys to talk to the bastard boom guy in the most difficult phase when I try to keep position...

If I could at least do the god damn comms before approaching close to the tanker, that would make it much easier.

And I still would welcome an optional "cheat" to just fly the plane into formation with the tanker and let the AI do the couple minutes tanking and be back in business.

I think that's enough said...

Although I have gotten much better with AA Refueling than when I started I will say that your hardware and the curves you setup do indeed have a role in it. I have gone to a Warthog recently and I do find it easier (once I added the 10cm extension). Before that I used an X55 and to be honest it was always a great weight loss program.

Patience in learning and etc are paramount, it can be done with most hardware I assume but in my experience, the better the hardware, the easier it is.

Curves are a huge part of it and if you aren't using any check out this link.

http://www.vvfa-2bountyhunters.com/gallery

Its what I used with my X55 and am currently using with the Warthog. It may not be perfect for yourself but its a great starting point.

You noticed Sierra99's comment?!

I have no doubt whatsoever that he's 100% correct that the AI boom operator is not as good as a real human.

I'm also positive that most all the players in this game aren't as good at AAR as real fighter pilots.

The AI operator only plays a very brief part of the process, getting you connected. And that's the easiest part.

and automate at least the comms, as I always need to get my hand to the F-keys to talk to the bastard boom guy in the most difficult phase when I try to keep position...

A really important step in the process is to stabilize yourself behind the tanker with a zero rate of closure and trimmed to level flight before you request contact. You should literally be able to let go of the stick completely when you press F1 and see the tanker stationary in front of you.

I always need to get my hand to the F-keys to talk to the bastard boom guy in the most difficult phase when I try to keep position...

You really need to give VAC another try. I use it all the time and never have an issue. Can't imagine not having it. DWVAC is what I use. A little more costly but no issues.

The AI operator only plays a very brief part of the process, getting you connected. And that's the easiest part.

This is an assumption that's simply incorrect Sharpie. The "very brief part" is THE most important part in real life and can make or break a refueling. In real life i had the ability to extend the boom 8 feet to help the receiver. I have the ability to fly the boom up and down and left and right several degrees to align with the receptacle ALL to makes things easier for the receiver and safer for everyone involved

A really important step in the process is to stabilize yourself behind the tanker with a zero rate of closure and trimmed to level flight before you request contact. You should literally be able to let go of the stick completely when you press F1 and see the tanker stationary in front of you.

That's great in theory...not even close to real life.

Until someone can produce some specific data on what's supposed to happen when...and info about specific things like are the Boom limits modeled? Does the Tanker produce wake turbulence?

This is a moot point. Good discussion but a moot point. I don't want to see a cheat...I wanna see it realistically modeled. If it can't be realistically model it should be simplified to lower frustration.

This is an assumption that's simply incorrect Sharpie. The "very brief part"

I'm talking about the game. Obviously I'm not trying to argue reality with somebody of your experience. What I'm saying is that in the game the connection is a brief part of the refueling and not the most difficult part.

Here's my video. I'm a bit rusty here and haven't done AAR for months.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2892666&postcount=1

No doubt a real operator would connect to me faster on this first pass. But as far as the game is concerned I'm not steady enough. I'm only in position for an instant and then fall back or drift. But the subsequent connections are better.

That's great in theory...not even close to real life.

I'm paraphrasing that passage from the checklist I have. Why wouldn't that make sense? If you can't start the process from a stable position astern of the tanker before pre contact. How can you remain stable when actually connected? If you're fighting for control of the plane so much that you can't even press the F1 key, how are you in control enough to connect?

You really need to give VAC another try. I use it all the time and never have an issue. Can't imagine not having it. DWVAC is what I use. A little more costly but no issues.

Windows 7 Home Edition (German)

No way to get english voice recognition without a lot of unhealthy manipulation...

If voice recognition is necessary for AAR, then it should be part of DCS?

Again, I and most likely a lot of people know ALL the theory and tipps and hints how to fly, look for queues, etc.

I'm just sick of getting in position, holding formation nicely and even when I get a brief "contact" in a second or two after that, the tanker accelerates or maneuvers, most often the boom operator was bugged anyway in the last year's and if not he was behaving strange at least.

I tried this since DCS: A-10C Beta release, maybe not for hours and days or weeks in a row, but from time to time.

As I can fly and hover a Huey (managed even the twitchy FM before the first patch), can fly the Gazelle into battle positions, I also doubt it is the stick or my inability to make course corrections.

Either god wants to test me, or I just suck at AAR. So for me personally a "cheat" like this would be heartily welcomed... Maybe in exchange they can drop the arcade modes and save us from deactivating it in every mission what I guess everybody is doing anyway.

Last time I looked at it was with the original Black Shark release when I started the "Instant Action" mission after the training.

I absolutely support this idea of the original poster and if it is as little effort as I expect, they should add it when they overhaul the AI.

The purist will do his manual AAR, the interested may use it from time to time when the 2nd or 3rd attempt fails, the incapable can at least finish missions and participate.

Any MP mission builder or MP server admin who sees this as a religious sacrilege, can simply force "easy AAR" OFF in the ME... and everyone lived happily ever after. :)

I think a method of simplifying AAR would be a very good addition.

But rather than an on/off "cheat" that does it for you, I'd rather see a multi-option difficulty selection such as is available in other sims, where aircraft controls/flight characteristics are adjusted and the aircraft is artificially "stuck" to the tanker to varying degrees. That way it can act as a kind of "training wheels" to help people learn AAR as well as an assistant for those who don't want to learn to do it in full realisim.

Not something I'd use personally, but more such options for AAR and other areas can only be a good thing.

I think a method of simplifying AAR would be a very good addition.

 

But rather than an on/off "cheat" that does it for you, I'd rather see a multi-option difficulty selection such as is available in other sims, where aircraft controls/flight characteristics are adjusted and the aircraft is artificially "stuck" to the tanker to varying degrees. That way it can act as a kind of "training wheels" to help people learn AAR as well as an assistant for those who don't want to learn to do it in full realisim.

 

Not something I'd use personally, but more such options for AAR and other areas can only be a good thing.

Agreed, a very good alternative.

Though I think this would require a lot more effort, from the developers, but it would be the better solution to adjust complexity and difficulty of AAR than just "skip" it...

I'm just sick of getting in position, holding formation nicely and even when I get a brief "contact" in a second or two after that, the tanker accelerates or maneuvers,

I know it seems that way but the tanker isn't the one accelerating or maneuvering. It's you. ;)

A cheat isn't needed because the tanker is bugged. The tanker works fine. The boom operator could be a bit better but that wouldn't make staying connected any easier.

Maybe it could be as simple as making the "contact box" larger and having an "easy refueling" option to select to use that mode.

Just thinking out loud, I really have no idea about what it would require to do this.

Where does "the box" live? Is it possible to change that parameter with a mod without asking ED to do it?

I know it seems that way but the tanker isn't the one accelerating or maneuvering. It's you. ;)

A cheat isn't needed because the tanker is bugged. The tanker works fine. The boom operator could be a bit better but that wouldn't make staying connected any easier.

Bullshit, it's a known bug for the M2000C... and another of these wtf moments in air-to-air refueling.

When the KC-130 goes into a turn it changes speed... At least it did last time I tried.

I'm not an idiot nor a noob at this... I can read instruments, analyze tracks and tacviews and they tell a different story then what you imply here. :doh:

it's a known bug for the M2000C... and another of these wtf moments in air-to-air refueling.

Well that plane is currently a Beta version so perhaps it's not a good basis for making these decisions.

I know it seems that way but the tanker isn't the one accelerating or maneuvering. It's you. ;)

A cheat isn't needed because the tanker is bugged. The tanker works fine. The boom operator could be a bit better but that wouldn't make staying connected any easier.

Really?

The tanker (and all AI controlled aircraft in DCS) does not hold a speed relevant to flight. Tankers will fly a set ground speed, which causes their indicated airspeed (which is what matters for AAR) to vary greatly, especially where there are realistic winds aloft.

Tankers do not set airspeed and altitude appropriate to the receiving aircraft. Yes a mission designer can set a tanker's speed/altitude, however, it does not change from there. A tanker flying 220KIAS at 14000 feet for A-10s is of little use for an F-16 which needs 300KIAS at 25000 feet.

The tanker's ground track changes depending on whether an aircraft is on the boom or not, it shouldn't (unless you ask it to).

And as with all AI controlled aircraft, the tankers simply doesn't behave in the manner any pilot would actually fly a real aircraft in ways ranging from minor little details to serious issues which present a big safety risk.

Sierra99 has covered what the boom operator should be doing (which would make staying connect much easier), but there is a lot that the aircraft's "pilots" should be doing as well.

As with many things, everything that a tanker crew should be doing is outlined in freely available documentation (ATP-56(b) and attachments), so it's not something that is beyond achievable requiring only the time to carry out. And if the tanker behaviour is more realistic it'd be easier, and also any simplified difficulty scale would be able to be more effective.

It is/was (need to test in latest build) a bug for AAR in the M2000C.

Fact.

Anyway any "you can do it if you..." argument isn't the point of this thread.

It is about the request to add an auto-refuel option.

It is not about your abilities or others inabilities, it is the question if it is possible (in terms of effort and resources) to add this feature, like an autostart/stop, an autopilot for the UH-1H, auto rudder and take-off support for the warbirds has been added to the sim like a couple other options that helps customers to have fun with the product they bought.

We know by now, that you have mastered the challenge of air refuelling.

Still it does not change a thing for others and the request is valid, and from my point of view I am in favor if it.

We get pretty much that you won't use it.

Fine with me, we are all grown ups.

As the feature does not in the slightest affect you, what is your argument again?!

I still need to hear a good argument against this option.

Limited resources. :D

The list of things that need to be fixed in DCS never seems to shrink (even when it does ;)). If ED were to look at AAR, I'd much rather they fixed the existing problems that have been outlined to quite some extent in this thread, instead of introducing a new option that works around the problem.

Besides, I'd never, ever assume that a feature that seems to be simple to implement (everything needed is already there) actually would be simple to implement. :smartass:

If it was really just a drive-by feature, I totally wouldn't mind it, and I wouldn't disallow it on any server I was in charge of (unlike game avionics etcetera), but I think a lot of features and fixes have much higher priority than this.

So, how's this for a con? ;)

It's hard to get this part sometimes, but the tanker isn't accelerating and maneuvering without warning. It's you doing that. The tanker is steady.

Well that plane is currently a Beta version so perhaps it's not a good basis for making these decisions.

OP didn't specify the airframe, neither did Shagrat. The problems with AAR in the M-2000C are massive (or have they finally been fixed?), so you telling the world that there's no problem when you actually only meant the A-10C is... a very limited field of view.

I know we've bumped heads recently regarding AAR and with everything that's been outlined by people much more experienced than either of us (as in: RL experience, which I take it you don't have; I sure don't), I'm getting more and more confused as to why you insist that AAR is totally fine in DCS and that people just need to get better. I mean, I have no problems performing AAR with the current A-10C implementation, but if it is more difficult than it should be, I'd never tell people that they're just doing it wrong. I just don't understand why you insist on that point.

Absolutely agree on the effort argument. I said in the earlier posts, it should be pretty easy to implement, and maybe worth it, when they work on the AI anyway....

Although I really have no issue with the implementation of such a "cheat" I most certainly would have them focus on about a hundred other things than this.

Its a good idea, I get it, but I really think the focus should be on the Hornet, 2.5, and mission builders needs (or a dynamic campaign engine). To me, these things would bring more to DCS and this topic would be a very distant desire.

I know it seems that way but the tanker isn't the one accelerating or maneuvering. It's you. ;)

A cheat isn't needed because the tanker is bugged. The tanker works fine. The boom operator could be a bit better but that wouldn't make staying connected any easier.

Sharpie I'm not sure if you're serious or Trolling. If you're trolling please stop. Its not helping resolve the issue. If you're serious you're just wrong. I agree we don't need a cheat for Air Refueling...We don't need a cheat because it shouldn't be this difficult to establish a contact and take fuel. Period. In all likelihood, its a programming issue not player error but until ED or someone with specific knowledge tells us exactly how its "supposed" to work and what parameters are in play, this is all guess work.

However, I'm inclined to believe it more programming verses player error based on things I can see that I KNOW are incorrect. For example...

KC-135 Air Refueling Booms are rigged to trail at 30 Elevation, 0 degrees Azimuth or it is a Maintenance write-up.(+- 3-4 degrees but don't remember exact number) If the Boom doesn't trail correctly, the Boom Operator must ensure it trails at the proper position. Why? For starters, that's the center of the Air Refueling envelope...More relative to this discussion, The BOOM is an important visual reference for receiver pilots as they close from 1/2 mile trail to the contact position. As the receiver closes from below and behind the Tanker he uses visual references such as keeping the the tip of the Boom on the nose of the tanker and flies up the 30 degree line to Pre-Contact position...

Once the Receiver stabilizes pre-contact, the Boom Operator CONTINUES to trail the Boom at 30 degrees as the receiver closes providing a stable visual reference. NOT the only reference but a stable visual reference. Thats what happens in real life...

In the game, as we close to the Contact Position at approximately 20 feet from the Boom, the Boom suddenly "POPS UP" SIGNIFICANTLY from where it is being trailed.

THIS is an issue because One of Two things is happening...

A.) The Boom is trailed "incorrectly" I.E. far to low...if you establish pre-contact off the boom in the wrong position...you are in the wrong position for contact once the boom "pops up."

B.) The Boom is trailed "correctly" I.E. 30 degrees, 0 azimuth...and once you establish pre-contact CORRECT position...It pops up to the TOP of the envelope...leaving you in the wrong position to close to contact AND likely in a position to exceed an upper limit once you're in contact.

This behavior alone is all I need to see to suspect a flaw in the Tanker programming...Sorry.

THAT being said...The Contact position needs to match real life as follows.

The stabilized position of the receiver within the AAR envelope where it is possible to make contact. NOT a specific point in the sky behind the tanker...within the AAR envelope. if you have to park at a specific point in the Sky...It's wrong.

The simple fact is this. You keep telling everyone YOU have no problem parking your A-10 in juuuuuust right place so the Boom can get a contact and get fuel. "All we need to do is practice"...Well by definition, finding this specific point in the sky behind the tanker should be unnecessary and in fact it indicates incorrect behavior of the tanker / Boom Operator.

Sharpe in reality all you have done is train yourself to perform perfectly...to a limitation imposed by the simulator...

Congratulations.

Sierra 99

PS ED/Mods feel free to jump in with some actual guidance regarding tanker performance and expected behavior.

Really?

The tanker (and all AI controlled aircraft in DCS) does not hold a speed relevant to flight. Tankers will fly a set ground speed, which causes their indicated airspeed (which is what matters for AAR) to vary greatly, especially where there are realistic winds aloft.

Sure. I understand the tanker actually flies a ground speed set by the ME.

But really? Is it possible that this huge aircraft can change speed so abruptly that a small fighter can't adjust and keep formation? A KC-135 can just punch the throttle and leave a Mirage in the dust?

I've done lots of AAR and never noticed the tanker changing speed. When I first tried practicing it, yes I could swear the tanker was bouncing and swerving all over the sky. He just wouldn't hold still! (then I realized all that bouncing and abrupt speed change was all me)

I came to a realization one day after another frustrating practice session, driving my car, and there I am (miraculously?) keeping "formation" with the car in front on me on the road. How is it I can do this?! And can't do it in DCS? So think about your foot on the gas pedal, tapping it randomly, without any thought. Just keeping your speed constant. Hey, that works in the game too. Just tapping the throttle on and off by little bits. Subconsciously. Suddenly before you know it. You're keeping speed with the tanker. It doesn't matter if he changes speed or not. Just like the traffic you're driving it. Just stay in position. There's not a magic speed or throttle position you're trying to keep. Just "be the ball" and stay on the tanker, it doesn't matter what speed he flies or changes to.

Sharpie I'm not sure if you're serious or Trolling. If you're trolling please stop. Its not helping resolve the issue. If you're serious you're just wrong. I agree we don't need a cheat for Air Refueling...We don't need a cheat because it shouldn't be this difficult to establish a contact and take fuel. Period. In all likelihood, its a programming issue not player error but until ED or someone with specific knowledge tells us exactly how its "supposed" to work and what parameters are in play, this is all guess work.

 

However, I'm inclined to believe it more programming verses player error based on things I can see that I KNOW are incorrect. For example...

 

KC-135 Air Refueling Booms are rigged to trail at 30 Elevation, 0 degrees Azimuth or it is a Maintenance write-up.(+- 3-4 degrees but don't remember exact number) If the Boom doesn't trail correctly, the Boom Operator must ensure it trails at the proper position. Why? For starters, that's the center of the Air Refueling envelope...More relative to this discussion, The BOOM is an important visual reference for receiver pilots as they close from 1/2 mile trail to the contact position. As the receiver closes from below and behind the Tanker he uses visual references such as keeping the the tip of the Boom on the nose of the tanker and flies up the 30 degree line to Pre-Contact position...

 

Pre-contact Position - The position approximately 50 ft behind and slightly below the tanker boom nozzle where the receiver stabilizes with zero rate of closure before being cleared to the contact position.

~ ATP-56(B) Part 1 Annex 1A ~

 

Once the Receiver stabilizes pre-contact, the Boom Operator CONTINUES to trail the Boom at 30 degrees as the receiver closes providing a stable visual reference. NOT the only reference but a stable visual reference. Thats what happens in real life...

 

In the game, as we close to the Contact Position at approximately 20 feet from the Boom, the Boom suddenly "POPS UP" SIGNIFICANTLY from where it is being trailed.

 

THIS is an issue because One of Two things is happening...

 

A.) The Boom is trailed "incorrectly" I.E. far to low...if you establish pre-contact off the boom in the wrong position...you are in the wrong position for contact once the boom "pops up."

 

B.) The Boom is trailed "correctly" I.E. 30 degrees, 0 azimuth...and once you establish pre-contact CORRECT position...It pops up to the TOP of the envelope...leaving you in the wrong position to close to contact AND likely in a position to exceed an upper limit once you're in contact.

 

This behavior alone is all I need to see to suspect a flaw in the Tanker programming...Sorry.

 

THAT being said...The Contact position needs to match real life as follows.

 

Contact Position (Boom Only) The stabilized position of the receiver within the AAR envelope where it is possible to make contact.

~ ATP-56(B) Part 1 Annex 1A ~

 

The stabilized position of the receiver within the AAR envelope where it is possible to make contact. NOT a specific point in the sky behind the tanker...within the AAR envelope. if you have to park at a specific point in the Sky...It's wrong.

 

The simple fact is this. You keep telling everyone YOU have no problem parking your A-10 in juuuuuust right place so the Boom can get a contact and get fuel. "All we need to do is practice"...Well by definition, finding this specific point in the sky behind the tanker should be unnecessary and in fact it indicates incorrect behavior of the tanker / Boom Operator.

 

Sharpe in reality all you have done is train yourself to perform perfectly...to a limitation imposed by the simulator...

 

Congratulations.

 

Sierra 99

 

PS ED/Mods feel free to jump in with some actual guidance regarding tanker performance and expected behavior.

No I don't mean to come across as trolling. And yes your insight into this is great and highly informative.

Yes the boom does odd stuff in the game that I can tell from RL videos is odd. Including that sudden pop up. And that it only connects under perfect position.

I find in DCS, it's best to not even look at the boom. We all realize it's operated by an AI "dummy"

My brother in the Airborne showed me a cockpit video of their C-17 doing an AAR. Very awesome. I can see the operator working there in a way the game just doesn't do.

Nobody, especially not me, said it should be a priority feature and is important to be implemented ASAP.

On the contrary, I said if if it is as easy to implement as I think (switch to AI/SFM activate refueling action, switch back to player AFM) they could do it when(!) they overhaul the AI after the 2.5 merge, which is on the list anyway.

If we talk about setting back other stuff like ground AI, damage modelling, dogfight AI, etc. to "build" a new complex AI auto-refuel feature I am against it, as Yurgon and you said, there is more important things to do.

But I would like to see this as a feature request with low priority on the list, as I think it's not a bad idea.

Sure. I understand the tanker actually flies a ground speed set by the ME.

But really? Is it possible that this huge aircraft can change speed so abruptly that a small fighter can't adjust and keep formation? A KC-135 can just punch the throttle and leave a Mirage in the dust?

I've done lots of AAR and never noticed the tanker changing speed. When I first tried practicing it, yes I could swear the tanker was bouncing and swerving all over the sky. He just wouldn't hold still! (then I realized all that bouncing and abrupt speed change was all me)

I came to a realization one day after another frustrating practice session, driving my car, and there I am (miraculously?) keeping "formation" with the car in front on me on the road. How is it I can do this?! And can't do it in DCS? So think about your foot on the gas pedal, tapping it randomly, without any thought. Just keeping your speed constant. Hey, that works in the game too. Just tapping the throttle on and off by little bits. Subconsciously. Suddenly before you know it. You're keeping speed with the tanker. It doesn't matter if he changes speed or not. Just like the traffic you're driving it. Just stay in position. There's not a magic speed or throttle position you're trying to keep. Just "be the ball" and stay on the tanker, it doesn't matter what speed he flies or changes to.

For starters the AI planes use an algorithm and datatable based SFM to "fly" unlike the players AFM/EFM aircraft, that actually interact with the air simulation, pressure, engine, hydraulics etc.

If you watch AI closely you can see some maneuvers they do to keep up or in position that are impossible to perform as a player in the AFM.

The tankers are no different...

What Sierra99 pointed out with the boom "popping up" is that it forces you to be OUT of the perfect envelope to make contact.

So you practice, practice, practice only to learn to be in a position to refuel, that you wouldn't want to be in compared to real life. And on top it makes it more difficult...