MiG-21 ECM

I am at the office so I can't remember what the ECM pod of the MiG-21 is called but I gather that this was not working for sometime. Has this now been fixed and is it therefore worth fitting to my Soviet Pocket Rocket of Doom?

If I remember correctly, the active jamming part should work (although its not very good or useful) but the passive jamming doesnt work at all because there is none of that implemented in DCS World. So for full functionality it needs an update to the core game sadly and there Magnitude cant do anything about it.

I'm not sure if I understand you. SPS-141 worked last time I checked. But this ECM pod is not designed to jam enemy aircraft radars. The original SPS-141 was primarily design to operate against Hawk SAMs and it just does that.

I know however that ASO installation on it could be improved though it won't make it any more useful.

The SPS-141 jammer works as every other jammer in DCS, so it does jam airborne and ground radars. As was disclosed by one dev of another team recently, DCS only has a jamming flag for all the aircrafts, so all jammers work the same and have the same strength. Problem here is, that nearly all other radars burn through before you even get them on your scope.

The passive part of the SPS-141 unfortunately does not work, where it should release cm automatically if locked.

It's not the passive part of SPS that is responsible for releasing chaff or flare but SPO. In automatic mode selected on ASO part of panel, countermeasures would be released based on signal strength from SPO.

Nice way to get rid of countermeasures if you ask me. Early warning radar might be enough to activate the release.

What is the passive part if not for cm release?

Passive / Active switch is responsible for operation mode of the jammer. In passive mode jammer is only receiving and analysing radar signal, while in active it transmits the "noise" (jamming signal).

I can write you a more thorough answer about modes and programmes once I'm home, if you're interested?

Passive / Active switch is responsible for operation mode of the jammer. In passive mode jammer is only receiving and analysing radar signal, while in active it transmits the "noise" (jamming signal).

 

I can write you a more thorough answer about modes and programmes once I'm home, if you're interested?

Yes I am very interested in that, as information on the handling of the SPS-141 is rather hard to come by on the net and additionally I think most information I found about jamming patterns are for the Su-17 / 22 version of the pod, which seems to be a bit different.

I can write you a more thorough answer about modes and programmes once I'm home, if you're interested?

Yes please...

Yes please...

+1

Ok, this is based on SPS-141 manuals in Polish and since I'm not a native English speaker, this may be a rough translation so keep that in mind please.

SPS-141 jamming pod is meant for individual and group defense of aircraft against radar guided missiles and radar guided AA guns, by the means of creating active and passive radio-electronic signal. In regard to radar guided missiles, station was mostly useful against SAMs but also air to air missiles. It created in a front hemispehere, in + / - 60 deg sector in azimuth and + / - 30 deg elevation, active noise against ground and air radars, operating in pulse, continous and quasi-continous models of wave length λ= 2,90 – 3,60 cm (f = 8,33 – 10,34 GHz). Jamming signals were of no less than 15 - 17 W strength.

As mentioned above, station had two models of operation. Receiving and transmitting (now I realize, that Im not sure what you were referring to as "passive"). In receiving mode, station analyzed signals but did not crease any jamming signals. In transmition mode, station automatically adjusted to its parameters and formed analogous false signals with a proper delay. In result, enemy radar operator would observe on a radar screen false targets, which ultimately led to break of the lock (in case MiG-21 was locked).

Station could operate in two programs. Program I signals were adjusted for individual defense of the aircraft, while program II signals for mutual defense of two or more aircraft. There are specific differences between the two, but I'm unable to translate that. It's too technical for me.

Anyway, then there was a switch for Continous and Pulse operation. It gave priority to the type of incoming signals, which would be jammed in response.

Technically station could create three types of jamming signals, depending on switch selection and type of incoming radar signals - impulse, continous and quasi-continous and mixed.

Interference set A - for individual defense against radar stations of impulse type, comprised of two alternately produced jamming signals.

Interference set B - for individiul defense against radar stations operating on continous or quasi-continous wave length, comprised of two jamming signals: one for angle co-ordinates and second for target selection system analyzing speeds. This allowed jamming both continous, quasi-continous and impulse types of radar stations.

Finally, Interference set W (or V) - for mutual defense of two or more aircraft against radar stations operating on continous or quasi-continous wave length, comprised of alternate jamming signals (flicerking with 0,2 – 1,0 Hz frequency).

It's worth mentioning, that SPS wasn't merely one station but Siren program led to a development of a number of stations. There were similar SPS-142 and SPS-143 stations which differed only in wave length operation (f = 6,67 – 8,33 GHz and f = 5,00 – 6,67 GHz respectively).

Finally, manual I have, indicates that there was introduced SPS-141M station with additional antennas in rear-hemisphere and with two new programs - Program III for individual defense of an aircraft in flight below 300 m altitude, against radar guided missiles operating in continous wave. This program was aimmed specifically to confuse the missile. Program IV - designed to counter radar stations operating in quasi-continous mode, in which tracking of "on - flight" targets. I cant exactly explain what they mean by "on - flight" (originally: w których realizowane jest śledzenie celów "na przelocie").

To be fair, variety of SPS Siren jamming pods is way greater than one would think. DDR received both SPS-141 and SPS-142. Than you also have SPS-141 MVG for the aircraft like Su-22 ...

I hope this helps you in understanding the system ;)

Wow, thank you for that.

Now the jamming for multiple aircraft part is a bit different from what I had known, but I think that is due to information getting lost in translation and mix up between different versions. Till know I thought it would only be possible to mask one additional aircraft and only in a very specific formation (and I have no clue how that looks like). As your information is from the manual, I assume this is far more precise. Does the manual say anything about what formations to use?

Yes. In case of mutual protection there were specific formations advised. But manual does not indicate restrictions on number of aircraft to just two, although examples and descriptions are given primarily for a pair which I assume would be most basic unit.

There are at least two formations indicated - "front" which translates to combat spread ( I think ), and "schody" which means echelon (either left or right).

Very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing!

Oh how I wish ED would up the ECM in DCS. Even just a little bit.

Oh how I wish ED would up the ECM in DCS. Even just a little bit.

+1

Oh how I wish ED would up the ECM in DCS. Even just a little bit.

Yeah. At least start to code some other and better jamming behaviors than just noise jamming and fixed radar detection and burn-through ranges with two multipliers by target and jammer.

The SPS-141 jammer works as every other jammer in DCS, so it does jam airborne and ground radars. As was disclosed by one dev of another team recently, DCS only has a jamming flag for all the aircrafts, so all jammers work the same and have the same strength. Problem here is, that nearly all other radars burn through before you even get them on your scope.

 

The passive part of the SPS-141 unfortunately does not work, where it should release cm automatically if locked.

Just curious, do you have a source for that information that the dev disclosed on how jamming works in DCS?

Unfortunately I cannot find it anymore. I am rather sure though it was in the F-14B section.

I don’t know if this is the same pod, but the front-cone ecm pod that was carried by Syrian Migs in 1982 over Lebanon were quite effective in throwing off Aim-7s from Israeli F-15s (in HO attacks of course, not from the side/behind). The Pkill of the old AIM-7 were poor and the IAF attributed it to the ecm pods.

Just curious, do you have a source for that information that the dev disclosed on how jamming works in DCS?

That's not really a disclosure of information. You can see that for yourself if you do some dedicated testing or just play DCS for long enough to notice this behaviour.

Jamming is extremly simplified in DCS and has not much in common with real world jamming.

God I wish the receive part can analyze the signals like the Viggen..

The Pod doesn't work. Tried with mission editor, added a Hawk battery template. They can lock on me and fire SAMs, no auto coutermesures launched while in active mode, no painting signal on pod panel while on passive. The lights on pod panel acting weird, if I turn off the pod lights remain lit, same if I switch from active to passive mode, the signal light remains lit as it was in previous mode.

Hope they fix it or remove it entirely if broken.

S!

I will check it tomorrow.

That's for the translation, Hiromachi! Wish it had been in the manual so I didn't end up searching for a while now :smilewink:

1- Why would I want my SPS-141 to receive the signal from the threatening airplane/vehicle? To analyse it, yes, but how does that help me? It's not like the analysis is displayed somewhere and I can react to that, right?

2- Maybe I should run more tests first (and I will), but since you posted right above my post the following "I will check it tomorrow" I thought I might ask if you did and if the pod is working as it should?

3- Is it possible to just have flares or just chaff? Is that realistic? And if so would it be doable in the rearming pop up menu? I'm asking because I think that'd give more room for flares if you're taking flares only and vice versa.